Pics of my Puget Sound blues

[GarterGuy]

Here's a pic of one of my baby T.s.pickeringii. This is the one that's been doing really well and is now eating scented pinky bits. The other one is finally starting to eat well, was really starting to get thin, but I think it'll pull through with out any worries now. I'll have to post some pics of that one once it gets a little better looking. Anyways, this is Cobalt. (Don't know the sex yet?)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//512/medium/Cobalt.jpg

[Thamnophis]

Very pretty Puget sound!

[Stefan-A]

Pretty indeed. :)

[Snaky]

Nice one:)

[Sid]

Great speciman! Another on my wish list.

Sid

[garterking]

Awesome looking snake. Want to get a couple for my collection. Where did you get them from??

[GarterGuy]

Awesome looking snake. Want to get a couple for my collection. Where did you get them from??
Got them from a guy named Bob out of Seattle WA. He was very cool with sending them and such, but I wonder about how entirely "honest" he was with me. These guys were captive born from wild caught snakes, supposed to have been born this past summer, but they looked pretty much like newborns to me (I've only had them for a couple weeks now). I had originally gotten three and had to put one down, since it was in such bad shape. Also they had some mites as well that I had to treat, but all's good now. I know others who've gotten snakes from him have had some issues as well. Don't think he has any babies left yet, but was advertising more adults on Kingsnake.com.

[abcat1993]

if I got another garter, that would be the one... as long as they cost a reasonable amount (less than ~120)

[ssssnakeluvr]

the spots along the stripes look a little odd to me.....northwestern garters have the small spots instead of the normal checkering.....and they come in a variety of colors including blue. Very pretty snake. I am also adding a pic of my adult brown northwestern for comparison.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//504/medium/northwestern_1.jpg

Puget sound garters have a smaller range than northwesterns....I have some baby northwesterns, will get photos of them here soon and post...marked just like that pretty little fella, only mine are brown....I want to get the red striped ones....

[Snaky]

Got them from a guy named Bob out of Seattle WA. He was very cool with sending them and such, but I wonder about how entirely "honest" he was with me. These guys were captive born from wild caught snakes, supposed to have been born this past summer, but they looked pretty much like newborns to me (I've only had them for a couple weeks now). I had originally gotten three and had to put one down, since it was in such bad shape. Also they had some mites as well that I had to treat, but all's good now. I know others who've gotten snakes from him have had some issues as well. Don't think he has any babies left yet, but was advertising more adults on Kingsnake.com.
When I hear things like that or experience it, I would not buy anything (anymore) with him. This is why I always like to go to the breeder (of course not always possible). You can see his collection and the circumstances the snakes are in. Otherwise he'll never learn and get's a profit by keeping his snakes badly.

This is by no way meant as an offense for those who bought by that breeder. It's a personal opinion :) and like I said, you can't always know.

[snakeman]

I am really suprised fish and game has'nt got him yet.

[ssssnakeluvr]

here's a pic of one of my baby northwesterns....notice the similarities in the head and spots.....

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//504/ord_2.jpg

[GarterGuy]

here's a pic of one of my baby northwesterns....notice the similarities in the head and spots.....

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//504/ord_2.jpg

Wow, that does look a lot like my guys......so you're thinking they might be T.ordinoides? I had thought they were big earthworm eaters, while my guys are really hitting the guppies and the bigger one is eating scented pinky bits. Hmmmmm...not really sure now....scale counts, labial scale counts....all are the same between sirtalis and ordinoides...even the side stripe location is the same between the two????:confused: I know some others who've gotten supposed T.s.pickeringii from "Bob", could all these snakes be T.ordiniodes. Anyone who's gotten any of the adults from him, let me know what you think....since the babies came from them.

[Cazador]

I also bought some from "Bob," and they are remarkably similar to your T.s. ordinoides! In fact, they could have come out of the same litter. What are the distinguishing characteristics between the two subspecies?

[abcat1993]

I think I'm the only one who hasn't bought from bob. Were can I find this so called "bob" of yours?

[GarterGuy]

I think I'm the only one who hasn't bought from bob. Were can I find this so called "bob" of yours?


He advertises on Kingsnake.com in the classified section under "other snakes"....his ad for the Pugets....which may be debatable....is listed as "cool blue garters", I also think he's got some adult T.s.fitchi that he's trying to sell.

[GarterGuy]

I also bought some from "Bob," and they are remarkably similar to your T.s. ordinoides! In fact, they could have come out of the same litter. What are the distinguishing characteristics between the two subspecies?


Well I rechecked the literature I've got and found out that T.ordinoides has a 17 scale count while T.sirtalis has a 19. Guess I gotta go count scales now. Not going to be easy, they're such small little buggars and I don't think they'll sit still for me very long!:p Oh, and I had thought that ordinoides was a full species, not a subspecies of sirtalis????

ssssnakeluvr......What are your adult T.ordinoides eating? Even if my little guys are or aren't ordinoides, I've seen some really nice red ones for sale at shows that I'd like to get, but don't really want to be working with something that only eats earthworms.

[GarterGuy]

OK....well I did scale counts using the pics that I have on my PC, did scale counts on a shed I have from one of the little ones and did scale counts on one of the snakes that was sitting close to the end of the tank. Yes, I have a headache now!;) I also did scale counts on sheds and pics of my T.s.concinnus for comparison and from what I can tell, the snakes I bought as T.s.pickeringii are actually T.ordinoides. 17 scale counts on the pic, sheds and snake, compared to 19 on my T.s.concinnus sheds and pics. Now having said that, I will also say, these are REALLY small scales and I did use a magnifying glass to do it, but if I'm off by only one scale ( you count from caudal scale up to the center point on the snake, no the whole way around...which would be REALLY HARD!) then I'm wrong. So I'll be interested to see what othes have to say on this one with their specimens.....but I'm leaning towards blue phase T.ordinoides rather than blue phase T.s.pickeringii.

[ssssnakeluvr]

my adult was eating fish....she passed away last fall. she was given to me bya reptile rescue guy here in SLC, given to him by someone that caught her... the babies are being finicky..took a few guppies during the fall (after my rescue friend gave me them, he had a female given to him and she had babies) but they quit eating. I put them down for a month and just brought them out...gave them a couple days to warm up. I will be feeding for the first time tomorrow after hibernation...hopefully they will start eating!!! I have frozen catfish, salmon, and a few worms....
they do look like ordinoides to me.....very nice too...I want to get some of the other color phases...blue, red stripe, I have even seen a pic of a lighter colored one that has red coloring like the western terrestrials....

[Cazador]

Just got done counting scales on two of the blue garters I got from Bob. Both have 17 scale rows (starting dorsal to the 10th ventral scale, anterior of the vent). Unfortunately, after counting the same scale rows on three of my T.s. concinnus I also got 17 scale rows for each of them :confused:.

I only looked at one key (from Rossman), but he doesn't mention 17 scale rows as being a definitive characteristic for T. ordinoides (or T. sirtalis). I'm no taxonomist and don't really feel like counting teeth (as Rossman suggests), so all I really know at this point is that I bought some pretty blue garters :o. Roy, did the scale row count come from a field guide?

Don, I really like those northwesterns with red stripes as well, but they seem to be hard to come by.
Rick

[GarterGuy]

Well I had a nice long reply where I quoted the text I got the info. from and ect., but was booted off and lost all of it. So here it is, short and sweet.....the text was from Audubon Soceity Guide to North American Repitles and Amphibians. I also found reference to the scale counts (17 for ordinoides and 19 for sirtalis) in a Golden Guide A Guide to Field Identification: Reptiles of North America. So it looks like we got blue phase Northwestern gartes and not blue phase Puget Sound garters.:eek: Thanks ssssnakeluvr for bringing this up....would have probably never known. Doesn't much matter to me, still love them and am excited about actually working with another species of garter, besides all the T.sirtalis ssp. Also gives me some incentive to try out the really nice red T.ordinoides that I've seen for sale a the local reptile show.

[Cazador]

Hey Roy,
Thanks for the info, above. Too bad about the original post. I would have liked to seen it. I also think it's pretty cool about them being T. ordinoides. I saw some seemingly identical blue snakes for sale by "Glades Herps" a while back on kingsnake, and they were being called "mountain garters." They were being sold for $95, but I don't remember if that was per snake or per pair.
Rick

[KITKAT]

Well, I have adults from Bob... but I have no idea how to do a scale count. This weekend, or early next week, I will try to get some really clear photos, and post them. Then maybe some of you younger guys (with eyes that work) can help me count them.

[Thamnophis]

The easiest way to do a scalecount is to do so on a shedding.
Put on your reading-glasses :)

[Cazador]

Once again ssssnakeluvr, my hat's off to you. You're tha man!

Kitkat, Roy,
It looks like we bought T. ordinoides :cool:. When I think I know something, it takes a good bit of evidence to persuade me otherwise, and I've been looking at a lot of indistinct (and probably some mis-labeled) pictures of T. ordinoides and T.s. pickeringii over the last few days. Today, I e-mailed Gary Nafis, and he wrote back with a key to certain snakes of the West & Northwest. It didn't include T.s. pickeringii, but it had other T. sirtalis subspecies. My blue snakes have 7-8 upper labials; 8 lower labials; their internasals are equal to or shorter than their prefrontals; and they have 17 scale rows... all characteristics of T. ordinoides. He has an awesome snake ID key with photos to help interpret the descriptions. Have a look (Key to California Gartersnakes (http://www.californiaherps.com/identification/snakesid/gartersnakeskey.html)).
Rick

[GarterGuy]

Once again ssssnakeluvr, my hat's off to you. You're tha man!

Kitkat, Roy,
It looks like we bought T. ordinoides :cool:. When I think I know something, it takes a good bit of evidence to persuade me otherwise, and I've been looking at a lot of indistinct (and probably some mis-labeled) pictures of T. ordinoides and T.s. pickeringii over the last few days. Today, I e-mailed Gary Nafis, and he wrote back with a key to certain snakes of the West & Northwest. It didn't include T.s. pickeringii, but it had other T. sirtalis subspecies. My blue snakes have 7-8 upper labials; 8 lower labials; their internasals are equal to or shorter than their prefrontals; and they have 17 scale rows... all characteristics of T. ordinoides. He has an awesome snake ID key with photos to help interpret the descriptions. Have a look (Key to California Gartersnakes (http://www.californiaherps.com/identification/snakesid/gartersnakeskey.html)).
Rick


Very cool site.....see this is what we need for all of them. Of course it'd also probably help to have a little bit on snake anatomy. I'm sure there are those who have no idea what internasals are or that blush when you ask them about labials:p . I'm seriously thinking about getting something like this in gear after the holidays. It's the slow time of year at the lab, so I'll have plenty of time for research. I'll see my publisher buddy this weekend at the herp club meeting, so I'll see what he has to say.

[Cazador]

Hey Roy,
One of the cool things about his website is that if you click on any of the blue letters, it actually shows numbered labials, how to count scales, etc.
Rick

[GarterGuy]

Hey Roy,
One of the cool things about his website is that if you click on any of the blue letters, it actually shows numbered labials, how to count scales, etc.
Rick


Very cool.....didn't notice that the first time I checked it out!

[KITKAT]

Actually, if these are T ordinoides, I will be pleased. I was a bit worried about the local wildlife cop making me license the pickeringii. You see, living in Ohio is a bit frustrating... we are required, for example, to license and pit tag T sirtalis "florida blue" because T sirtalis are native to Ohio. I have never broached the subject of subspecies with the nice officer, but I fear that they would include them.

As it is, I may be the only thamnophis member (unless there is someone else from Ohio) who may NOT OWN any T radix. I think it is a real crock, but they are illegal to own in Ohio, as they are listed as "endangered" by way of the fact that their range extends VERY SLIGHTLY over the Indiana border in one place, and therefore they are very rare here. (It is an agenda driven logic for sure that places them on the endangered list here... SIGH!):mad:

[GarterGuy]

Actually, if these are T ordinoides, I will be pleased. I was a bit worried about the local wildlife cop making me license the pickeringii. You see, living in Ohio is a bit frustrating... we are required, for example, to license and pit tag T sirtalis "florida blue" because T sirtalis are native to Ohio. I have never broached the subject of subspecies with the nice officer, but I fear that they would include them.

As it is, I may be the only thamnophis member (unless there is someone else from Ohio) who may NOT OWN any T radix. I think it is a real crock, but they are illegal to own in Ohio, as they are listed as "endangered" by way of the fact that their range extends VERY SLIGHTLY over the Indiana border in one place, and therefore they are very rare here. (It is an agenda driven logic for sure that places them on the endangered list here... SIGH!):mad:

Sorry to hear about your governmental problems in Ohio. We've actually just made some changes to the reptile laws here in PA, to help protect hobbyist, so that they don't run into the same sort of problems that you've been having. I'm a memeber of a Herp Society and we were able to get lots of petitions signed and get the local establishment to recognize reptile keepers as a real part of the people affected by the laws.

[sschind]

Sorry to hear about your governmental problems in Ohio. We've actually just made some changes to the reptile laws here in PA, to help protect hobbyist, so that they don't run into the same sort of problems that you've been having. I'm a memeber of a Herp Society and we were able to get lots of petitions signed and get the local establishment to recognize reptile keepers as a real part of the people affected by the laws.

Wow, thats a first. Could you elaborate, or point me to some of the changes that were made. I know I for one would not be as opposed to certain legislation if allowances were made for hobbyists. If this was something we all could rally around it might make the hobby better.

[GarterGuy]

Well I can do the best I can. We had represenetives from the Herp club attend meetings of the Fish and Boat Commission (the gov. agency that "controls" herps here in PA) to listen to what new regs. were being brought up and exactly how they would impact herp keeping. The pres. of the club and two others (a zoo keeper and a guy who runs a reptile rescue) would then bring back the info. they got there and we'd all discuss it at the meetings and talk about what needed to be done. We then circulated online and offline petitions, stating that the rights of legitimate reptile hobbyist needed to be taken into account with the new laws. Also we did some letter writing to the head of Fish and Boat Commission, just to make sure that they got the message, that this was real issue with a good many people. When the new regs. and such were drawn up, the head of the Fish and Boat Comm. has said that he was really surprised of the number of people in the herp keeping communitiy.....who before this, they had really never considered before.
What finally came out of it are regs. that allow for the protection of the native species here in PA, but also making sure that those regs. aren't abused against hobbyist. One such change was that it was illegal to keep more than one of any species or subspecies of a native reptile. This ment that if you kept a Cali. Redsided garter...a subspecies of T.sirtalis, a native species....you were in vilation of the regs. We got this changed to state that only those species and subspecies that occure within the state. This was probably the biggest of the changes for hobbyist in the state, the others were more towards protection of native species from outside sources....like snake hunts and such. Probably the best thing to do is get involved. Find out if there are any local Herp clubs in the area and join and participate in them. Also make sure that you are familiar with the laws and regs. that are in your state and how they will affect you as a hobbyist. Lastly just be heard.....get your ideas and thoughts out there so people know that you exist.

[ssssnakeluvr]

Thanks for the compliment Cazador!! Just trying to help out.

We have some stupid laws here in Utah also....California kingsnakes, black and whtie banded, are just barely in the southwest corner of Utah...hence they are protected....one of the most common snakes out there... They finally changed the law allowing them as long as they aren't wild caught from here. You can get a permit from the Division of Wildlife Resources here to captive breed local snakes, as long as they aren't prohibited species. The DWR likes to hit all the private citizens here that breed and leave the pet stores alone....sucks!!!!!

[CrazyHedgehog]

Have a look (Key to California Gartersnakes (http://www.californiaherps.com/identification/snakesid/gartersnakeskey.html)).
Rick

Cazador, this is an amazing site.. thankyou,

I have struggled with the counting this that and what? this really does show clearly what you are supposed to be looking at..

I have 23 thamnophis of various species.. some a little suspect...so I might be having a closer inspection with the help of this site...

MODS....can we have this link highlighted somewhere as a main or recomended resource?

[KITKAT]

The following is my own private opinion and not a reflection of the site:

The sad part of the Ohio regs is that they don't know what they are doing, and have destroyed what they set out to protect.

T radix had a subspecies that appeared in an isolated area of Ohio... a protected parkland in the western part of the state.

There are no T radix in Indiana, so this insular population was a remnant of the prairie from hundreds of years ago, when it actually extended from westward, into Ohio.

DNR, in their infinite wisdom, required pit tagging of all T radix found in the area... and they tagged even very small specimens. As a probable result, there are very few now found in the park, where there were once plentiful findings.

And in yet another wise move... they imported the western T radix and released it in the area... thus destroying the insular genetics of the subspecies.

:mad: :( :eek: !!!

Meanwhile, all herpetologists who live in Ohio are banned from owning T radix.

[Thamnophis]

Sometimes things go very wrong and do not make sense. Also in Ohio, as it seems.

[Lee]

very nice looking snake you have there ;D