To handle...or not

[adamanteus]

I think we've maybe talked about this before, but not recently. What are your views on handling your Garter snake?
I had a discussion with Gregmonsta, during his recent visit to me, and he told me of a study he conducted into this, which seemed to indicate that snakes which are handled frequently increase in weight faster than those which are not handled. I'll let him explain his findings. What do you do? Do you handle your Garters as 'pets'? Do you handle to keep them 'tame'? Or do you keep handling to a bare minimum? What are your reasons for your choices?

Personally, I only handle my Garters when necessary, for cleaning, examination, photo sessions etc. My feeling is that they don't enjoy being handled, they just tolerate it. Although they may well become accustomed to it. I find that during cleaning I have to constantly remove my snakes from my hand/arm etc. as they crawl all over me while I'm working. I believe this to be a feeding instinct or curiosity. They don't feel threatened by my presence, but neither are they 'seeking out my company'.

So, your views please, guys!:)

[Tori]

I am another that handles only when necessary (for cleaning, feeding, examining, photos, etc) And for 99.9 % I would have to say they only tolerate being held, but there is always the exception. I have one female eastern that I tried to release when she was very young. She refused to leave the area that I released her in. I had opened the carrier that I had her and several others in and left it for 3 hours before coming back for the container. She was still laying beside it. I sat in the grass beside her and she immediately climbed into my lap repeatedly. She just wouldn't leave even after being carried inside the edge of the woods she came back to the container and then into my lap. I decided it was too late to release her and brought her back home. To this day she won't eat unless I let her out of her cage and hold her food for her, after which she goes back into her cage by herself. Well, all of that just tells me that there is always an exception.

[adamanteus]

Fascinating, Tori. Do you think they may get 'imprinted' as birds do, so they rely on their keeper as a parent? That would be odd, as Garters don't provide care for their young. Or maybe it's a simple thought process..... Tori = food, why move away when all your needs are being met right here? I don't know.

[gregmonsta]

I'll try formulate an account of the study I conducted as part of my SYS project at school :rolleyes: .... this might take a whiley ...

As I was always keenly interested in biology I took it to SYS level (sixth year studies) as a pre-university prep class. I've been in love with reptiles since I was 5 or so and made enquiries as to wether I could use reptiles in my studies. My teacher made the relevant enquiries and I was eventually allowed two lovely Ribbon snakes.
The question was what to study. Mammals usually get a lot of attention when it comes to this type of research. Growth rate is widely studied and what intrigued me was a much repeated study of Gerbils and other such rodents that shows increased stimulation through handling promotes rapid growth during the formative period. I was very interested in if this would also apply to snakes.
I had two male ribbons (subspecies were unspecified) for the study (Steve and Dave) who were just past 20cms when they arrived. I studied two things - the aforementioned growth stimulation; and vibration triggers in feeding response.
The growth experiment
Steve was the study subject and Dave acted as the control. Being siblings they were almost identical (although Dave started approx 5mm longer than Steve). The conditions of the experiment were as follows:
Steve and Dave were housed together,
Monday - Friday I measured length and weight,
Food would be weighed and offered on a Fri and weighed again after the snakes had eaten their fill.
Steve would be handled for 1hour every Mon-Fri and Dave would be handled for 5mins.
Results - Within the first 3months Steve had already voided the 5mm difference between himself and Dave. They were both growing like crazy over the months that followed and both showed similar burst of growth but Steve always showed a larger increase in mass and would usually put on an extra 1-2mm more than Dave comparatively.
Steve became more active and inquisitive than Dave.
Dave was more prone to musking.
Steve's growth can be attributed to the extra handling and I believe that the gained mass is a definate result of increased muscle tissue from his 'workout' / increased exercising - length could also be accounted for in my findings as Steve had reached past 50cms by the end of the study and was a full 1.2cms longer than Dave(although I must stress that I only had two test subjects and any difference between them could be genetic or otherwise)
After the experiment I did some measuring and discovered that they both achieved a maximum length that was almost identical (I must stress that after the initial 9months experimention they became my pets and were loved to bits and handled regularily for hours on end :rolleyes:) although Steve retained his extra body mass and also, eventually had a longer lifespan (though this could also be attributed to any number of other factors external to the experiment)

[salzar]

okay.... I know I do not have a garter,
but my snake is handaled daily. he rests in my hand and drinks from his water dish and eats from my hand as well .
he will not try to slither away and will stay put when I pick him up and then coiles in my hand and will stay there for a long time, he does venture on the bed but always comes twards me or my hand just to keep close to my skin. he frequently will wrap his tail on one of my fingers and will not come off unless you remove him, mind you he still hunts the worms and I have seen him drink on his own , but has a liking to being handled.
I do think, if given the chance to escape, he might try a jail break!
dont know if this will count...
bye
michelle

[Tori]

She is the only snake of any kind that has acted this way or even close, so I don't know what to make of it. As a baby she was an escape artist and I often found her out of her cage. Or at least, more often than any of the others. But she never tried to run when I found her loose. She just looked disgusted and waited to be picked up. Which is one of the reasons that I included her in the group of native babies to be released. It can get aggrevating to have to be 10 times more careful with one than all the others put together. And at the time I had over 70 babies. But I have lizards running loose, so a loose baby could become lizard food. I built a more secure cage for her and I guess she is here for life.

She definately connects me with food and I wear gloves during feeding. Not because she is a biter, but because she attacks her food and fingers if they get between her and food, but she always spits me out as soon as it hits her my finger isn't a fuzzy. She is very insistent that she be out of her cage to eat or while I clean her cage. She just hangs out on top without trying to get down and has lunged off the top to land on me where she is happy to explore. Maybe she is mental?

[Zephyr]

I feel that you shouldn't handle your garter when it's under 4 months unless it's absolutely necessary. I think that before this they're too fragile and whatnot, and with my "program" it's best not to get attached. I only recently, within the past month, began handling my garters, and they don't seem to mind it. Probably because they've known me through sight, scent, and hearing since they were born.
However...
As with Tori, I too had an exception. 2 years ago, before I had my current knowledge and whatnot, I had a snake named Scooty. I used to feed him earthworms but switched to goldfish for ease of purchase. *Stupid, Stupid, STUPID!*
So, during his earthworm days, I would always take him where I went during the summer. Little places, such as Church, pet store etc. I had enough wit to select a certain time and day where I never held him, only fed him. But each time I would take him out for "activities," he would either wrap himself calmly around my hand, wrap around my glasses, or, in the extreme case, sit in one place and watch TV with me. Not even the jerkiest movement would make him flinch. So I dunno what went on there.

[Zephyr]

Could it be possible that they eventually lose their fear of humans with constant exposure? Maybe if they learn we're not a threat, they begin to associate us with the environment and not as an actual organism. :P

[Sid]

I handle mine only as needed. Moving to a feeder container, to clean the enclosures or examine their health. Simply my preference. I didn't start keeping Garter to have a lap dog, I wanted creatures that would act more like their wild counter parts. Yes, some don't mind being handled and some do. Knowing this lets me chose which to carry with me when I do an expo for a school. Kids can see and feel a Garter that doesn't mind it without causing undue stress.

[Zephyr]

Well, I guess in the most extreme case, a very tame snake would be best to take to the vet for any reason, as it would be used to handling.

[Lori P]

Greg, very cool project you did there. Thanks for sharing!!

Being so new to garters, I don't have much practical experience but here's my little thoughts...

Like Sid said, I never wanted snakes as lap dogs. (Lap dogs, I have loads of!) So my initial thoughts were that the snakes would provide me with something beautiful and interesting to watch, and allow me the pleasure of providing for them the best care I could, but without being "needy". And so I never did handle them much, and I still don't; I prefer to be the caregiver-from-afar and leave them to live their own lives.

However.

Having lately to handle Miriam and Mordecai more, it's been dawning on me that I may not have done them justice. They have never gotten over their fear reaction to me... and now I'm starting to think that hadnling them a lot more may have stressed them initially, but as they slowly got used to me as a part of their environment, they overall would have been more relaxed and content.

Does that make sense? I wouldn't expect them to recognise me as a "friend", but at least to not panic when I reach for them. And as we do have to handle the snakes from time to time, it seems to me now that having them precieve us as an unthreatening moving branch, lol, would actually be kinder in the long run.

It's like with the horses... in order to raise a "bomb proof", sane, well adjusted foal, you have to scare them with big bad things (tarps, umbrellas, plastic bags, etc) until they are used to them and no longer startle. But it is hard to know you're scaring your baby and stressing her, just to make her life easier in the long run.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I totally, 100% believe that my garters have absolutely no fear of me. I keep my garters in community groups, which I have found they seem to prefer over living alone. I decided to keep them this way after noticing that in early morning on my grandparents farm, the garters come out to sun themselves in the field, but do not lie alone, they are always laying in the grass in groups, out in the open, usaully 3-5 of them.

The females have the luxury of a 55 gallon long fish tank. And the males a separate one. These tanks are cleaned quite frequently. When I walk into the snake room, my garters are the ONLY snakes in that room that go zipping to the front of the glass. All are 100% tame and handleable. They all eat from my hands and they all are very inquisitive of my presence. If I stick my arm in the cage, I will have 5 garters up my arm in no time! I totally feel a bond with my garters and this is what has made me love them and cherish them far above my other snakes.

The same goes for my babies. Especially my hypo's five little ones. I recently lost the "runt" of that litter.... which I could see coming... he never really grew... shame :(

but as for the other four... I consider them my children! They sit in my hand when they eat their guppies and pinky chunks, (prevents fighting), they tolerate me wiping their little faces clean (prevents a jealous sibling from trying to eat her fishy smelling brother) and come straight to me when the cage is open.

I never really thought of snakes capable of "liking" a person or another snake, until I started keeping garters, and until I got ahold of behemoth and golianne. These two were a pair of half cornsnake half black ratsnakes, half siblings, that were together from hatchling days, hets for snow. By the time they arrived in my care they were six feet! tragedy struck a year later, golianne beame eggbound and lost the fight. She was able to lay just one egg before her passing. I incubated the egg and it began to hatch, but the baby died before he came out of the egg, and to think the only egg, and there was a 1 in 16 chance of getting a snow and he was just that! Behemoth, who steadily ate one a week, did not eat for three months after Golianne passed, and he was constantly restless as if searching for his cagemate. and to this day he will not pair with another mate. That expierience, along with my garters, totally changed my view of snakes.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

i handle mine a lot , i always handle my garters and they all are extremely tame now, when i open the cage they come out to great me, i hand feed them without problems, i pick them up without them squirming or musking, seem to be more adventurous and curious, and they dont shy away when i walk past their cage.(and many others things like that). My tamest ones are the ones ive raised from birth (usually) they seem to bond better. Curious was one of the tamest garters ive ever had/seen(and i held him a ton) i dont dont have him anymore though but lori can vouch for me on how tame he is

[Stefan-A]

I handle mine a bit (except the snappy one). Not much, maybe once or twice a week and not for very long, a minute or two at the most. I don't even do it to inspect them, I can do that without touching them. It's simply because I'm convinced they will get used to it and be less aggressive as adults.

[GarterGuy]

I only handle my garters every so often...when cleaning cages, feeding, ect.....but sometimes do let them come out and "cruise" around. I think garters seem to have more "curiosity" then some other snakes, and always seem to be investigating things. Makes you wonder if they show this, what do they do with what they discover? They tend to be very visual snakes and tend to have a bit more going on upstairs, much like other visual snakes, like racers, coachwhips, indigos and cobras. It's almost like since they're taking in more environmental imputs, their brains are wired a bit differently. I know my garters all come up to the glass to see what's going on when I walk into the reptile room and often while cleaning them out, they're climbing up my arms....not to make a quick escape, but just to kind of check things out. I hate to put human characteristics on to animals, but I do definitely think there might be some more intelligence going on there.

[Loren]

James, I pretty much treat all of my snakes like you with your garters. I try to take all of my snakes out and handle them every so often for inspection,cage cleaning, and possible weighing, measuring, and photos. Other than that, I dont handle most of them regulary. With 60-something snakes and a full time job, I just dont have time to hold them all really often. I do try to take them out here or there just for enjoyment, though.
Thats actually one of my favorite things, is when I actually have time just to take a snake out and hold it just for fun.
Then of coarse, there's a few that I just plain dont handle, for my health.

Lori, I do agree that by handling them a certain amount, you can hopefully convince them that you are not a threat, thereby reducing stress on them when you interact with them.
This of coarse is a little different with every snake. I've had some that calm down with some simple semi-regular handling, then there's been a few that want nothing more than to bite me no matter how much I try to "tame" them. I'm trying right now to convince my baby everglades ratsnake that I am not a threat- she's a slow learner, but I want to teach her while her teeth are small!

[Lori P]

Reed, Curious is no doubt the most outgoing snake I've met. I absolutely adore him, he really does shoot to the front of the tank when you approach, he eats straight from my hand, and does not panic when I pick him up. You did an amazing job with him!! You can't help but fall in love with him, that little face is always looking right at you with no fear, just-- well-- curiosity. He's an awesome little guy and I'm so thankful you trusted me to adopt him!!!!

See, I wish M & M were so convinced I wasn't going to eat them. I think they'd be more content overall.

LOL, that's the word for Curious... he's a very content snake!

[SerpentGirl]

I only handle my snakes about 1-2 times a week. I just don't think that it would be a lot of fun to just own them to look at. The ribbon & green snake are nervous at first, but they do calm down after a few minutes, & the rosy boa is calm as soon as I pick him up, he really doesn't care.

That is just my preference... I just love them, and like to hold them.

[anji1971]

I'm the same way with mine -- they're so darn cute, I can't help but hold them every day! And Deejay is so calm that I believe if I picked her up while she was asleep, she'd not even bother to wake up!
Even little Stitch only gets twitchy when I first grab him, and within half a second he's having a blast twining thru my fingers!

[drache]

I've got snakes I handle and snakes I don't so much
it seems to me that some snakes kind of like it and others don't and most probably fall in between

[Snaky]

I don't handle my snakes unless I need to. so for example when I need to clean the cages, inspection... I don't think they need handling, so I observe them from behind the glass. Most of the time, they don't go away anymore, some even come towards me, flicking their tongue to see if I got any food with me. Of course, the downside is that all my snakes are really skittish when I handle them...

[mycolorfulheart]

I got Raven about a year ago and she's never liked being handled. I've only been able to take her out of her tank two or three times without getting musked. That said, she's had a pretty checkered past and the friend I got her from says she's a lot more 'outgoing' since i've gotten her; she rarely hides anymore and is always out basking or watching me/my family. One of the cats is still unaware of her existence, the other one is always fascinated by her and spends a lot of time watching her and pawing at the tank. but even that doesn't bother her, she doesn't even hide when this happens.

My longer-term pet plans include getting another snake or two, and i'm planning to make more of an effort to 'tame' the next snake i get. more for their benefit than mine, after seeing the way just being transfered into a different tank for brumation bothered raven.

[jompiej]

I don't handle my snakes, only when needed.
if I have to clean there cages, i'll pick them up and put them in a plastic box so I can easely work in their cages.

[Serpentine99]

my 3 garters i only handle when nessecary, but my mean corn i handle everyday as an experiment to calm him down around people so he doesnt strike at anything that passed his cage. It appears to be working because he hasnt striked at anything in over a week and a half so i guess you could say for now that the "taming" was a success.