Fish

[NFS07]

Ok so I think we all need to put our heads together and come up with a list of the fish that are ok to be fed. I'll take care of putting the list together you guys just get me the names of the fish.


At some point I'll wonder around to the local pet shops, write down names, and than ask which ones can be fed and which ones can't. This list will not only help me but all new people to the care of garters.

So go ahead and post the fish that are OK for garters to eat.

[Elliot]

Actually, I think we already have a list like that somewhere around here. I may be wrong though. :confused:

[tikichick]

New or old list, I think it'd be great to have pics of each kind. Worms, too.

[NFS07]

I can do pictures to if a list is made.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

My garters are fed as follows:

Any who willingly take or can be tricked to take rodents are fed a steady diet of them. They are supplemented twice a month with worms and fish. I also use reptivite occasionally.

As far as worms go, you want to use standard earthworms or nightcrawlers that you would buy as fishing bait. I buy canadian nightcrawlers. The walmart in my area supplies them year round.

If they are red in color or have visible color rings such as those little red worms that are used to bait trout, do not use them. These worms are dubbed by many to be poisonous to garters and do more harm than good. The fact that they secrete a nasty smelling orange slime should be enough to deter you. They are tempting to owners of baby garters. Instead, dig up some small earthworms from your garden (assuming you don't use pesticides) or chop up nightcrawlers. To make them easier to chop up, run them under semi hot water, it kills the worm, Yes I know its mean but it's practical as it prevents you from having to chop him to bits while he's alive.

Fish, are tricky. You have to be careful because of the damaging efects of thiaminase. Still, there is no clear complete list on which fish contain thiaminase and which do not. What I can tell you is do not use feeder goldfish. They contain thiaminase. I prefer feeder guppies and rosy reds. My babies all grow up on this diet until they are big enough to eat pinks.

Also, never feed garters fish that has been frozen/thawed, and do not boil or cook fish prior to feeding. This will destroy much of the nutritional content of the meat. I know some people like to use slices of larger fish. I do not do this therefore I cannot tell you which large fish are safe for yuor garters to eat.

I have heard of people serving their garters red meat as well. I personally don't find it necessary and I don't think it's really natural for garters to be eating beef, but I don't see where there would be any ill effects if fed as a treat from time to time.

[GarterGuy]

As far as a short list of fish that's ok to feed from fillets, that's usually available in grocery stores......trout (freshwater) and salmon are both ok to give to garters.....f/t or fresh.

[drache]

this page has really well presented info on the matter

Article: Thiaminase – What it is, why you care (http://www.austinsturtlepage.com/Articles/Thiaminase.htm)

[Lori P]

I finally got a name for the big minnows I've been getting at the bait shop-- silverback minnows. But not sure if that's the bait store name or really what they're called. Need to go look 'em up. I sure hope they're a good feed minnow, the snakes love them!

I think the idea of a list with pics is a good one! :-)

[Sid]

Ok so I think we all need to put our heads together and come up with a list of the fish that are ok to be fed. I'll take care of putting the list together you guys just get me the names of the fish.


At some point I'll wonder around to the local pet shops, write down names, and than ask which ones can be fed and which ones can't. This list will not only help me but all new people to the care of garters.

So go ahead and post the fish that are OK for garters to eat.
Here's a start on "safe" feeder fish: Flathead minnows, Guppies, Rose Minnows, and Zebra fish are all ok.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

that gets me thinking about whats in my creek they ive seen ones about 7/8 inches long at max but i have no idea what they are, could they be baby trout? they kinda look like it. My neighbor also (like 3 years ago) released 300 goldfish into our creek so they could be hybrids maybe? ill try to get a pic

[Stefan-A]

If we had pictures, we could probably ID them. ;) Hybrids are very unlikely.

[Zephyr]

Ya know, technically rosy reds are oily fish. I remember reading an article that said they too contain thiaminase, just not as much as goldfish.

[Lori P]

Did we ever figure out if thiaminase has any relation to the gold color of certain fish?? Which would explain why rosy reds may have some thiaminase while other minnows don't??

[adamanteus]

I don't think we did. But it's a good idea. Red colouration is certainly an indication of toxicity in some animals. Who wants to research that?

[Lori P]

I'm off to try!!!

[adamanteus]

Go Lori!:D

[Lori P]

This does not address the color issue, but it's interesting reading-- they suggest gut loading feeder fish to off-set the harm of the thiaminase.

Thiamine and goldfish - WaterWolves - Exotic, Rare and Predatory Fish Since 1998! (http://forums.waterwolves.com/index.php?showtopic=10712&hl)=

I'm not having any luck so far on the color theme... off to search more. :-)

[Lori P]

Well, I'm right back to being confused. (That's ok, that's normal for me!) I read and I read, and here's what I learned:

--Rosy reds contain lots of fat and thiaminase.
--Rosy reds contain very little thiaminase.
--All minnows contain thiaminase.
--Only certain minnows contain thiaminase.
--All live-bearing fish are safe.
--Some live-bearing fish contain thiaminase.
--No mention anywhere I could find of a thiaminase/color relationship.
--All frozen fish contain thiaminase as the freezing process releases the minute amounts that all fish carry and allows it to destroy all the B1 in the fishes body.
--My head is befuddled and for tonite, I give up.

My theory right now is, variety, variety. And gut load all feeders as best you can with good quality feed and vitamin/minerals.

[KITKAT]

--My head is befuddled and for tonite, I give up.

My theory right now is, variety, variety. And gut load all feeders as best you can with good quality feed and vitamin/minerals.

I have been confused by this too. But I feed minnows, nightcrawlers, pinkies, and beef heart (in that order of occurrance) and have never had a snake with recognizable thiaminase symptoms.

[GarterGuy]

My theory right now is, variety, variety. And gut load all feeders as best you can with good quality feed and vitamin/minerals.

Think that's probably the best idea, the more variety, the less any one food item will have any detrimental affects on your snakes.....and in the long run, the happier the snakes will be. Variety IS the spice of life!:D

[gregmonsta]

Variety is definately good for our slithery friends .... and I'll keep up putting vitamin drops in the water ... sometimes there is just too much conflicting info .... mind you .... even so-called experts can get it wrong e.g. W.P. Mara (author of 'Garter and Ribbon Snakes') is guilty of generalising and even lists goldfish as a perfect food item!!!
Quote - "Goldfish are offered to captive garter and Ribbon snakes probably more often than any other food item. Goldfish are inexpensive, provide good nutrition, and can be obtained in most any foodshop."
Thiaminase isn't even associated to anything in the food section .... it is only mentioned very briefly in the book at all and then .... it is only refered to as a vitamin deficiency.

[adamanteus]

I believe Mara wrote that book in 1994, before they invented thiaminase!:D

[gregmonsta]

LOL .... it's an invention :) that explains it then :D .... no wonder people are confused.

[ssssnakeluvr]

whoever invented it should be shot!!!!! lol!!!:D

[drache]

on another note
I know I should be asking Mikhaila's science teacher, since he raises trout
but he raises his to be released somewhere as part of some program
the one time I asked him whether I could have a couple for my snakes, he was rather protective of them (in disbelief I dared to ask)
I do remember though, from my childhood uphill from the area's biggest trout farm, that they start out small
in fact - they may be small enough for even baby garters
so how come they're not available as feeders?
it can't be because they're hard to breed
trout farms have been around for longer than any others except carp ponds perhaps
any ideas on the subject?

[adamanteus]

Just buy a big one and cut it up.

[drache]

that'll work fine for my current snakes, James
I was more thinking of a solution for snakes who will not be dissuaded from a live food diet
when I first saw the science class trouts, I had one of those

[GarterGuy]

It's probably because there's not a huge market for baby trout, as there is for adults. We're still kind of in the minority amoung consumers.

[drache]

It's probably because there's not a huge market for baby trout, as there is for adults. We're still kind of in the minority amoung consumers.
I forget about that sometimes

[Stefan-A]

It's probably because there's not a huge market for baby trout, as there is for adults. We're still kind of in the minority amoung consumers.
Well, the market for baby trout is bigger, if you're strictly talking about the number of individuals. ;) Most of them go to fish farms, though.

You really just need to know someone who breeds trout and sells them to the actual farms.

[drache]

I had no idea that that's a separate business
I am fairly certain that the trout farm in our valley bred their own
yeah, they must have
I remember the guy walking a friend of ours through it and explaining something about breeding basins and rearing basins and holding basins
I should have never moved
and damn! my brother couldn't wait to get rid of that house

[Stefan-A]

You're absolutely right, it's not necessarily a separate business. Here, the farmers and the breeders are separate most of the time, because the farmers aren't usually big enough to breed their own fish. So they buy their fish from breeders and just raise them from about 12-24 month old fish to adults.

Some of the fish are bought by organizations that want to improve the population in a lake or a river, but they usually buy eggs, newly hatched or fish that are 1-2 years old. Garter-sized fry would be less than a year old.

[drache]

hm
not that I need them right now
but I should find out where the science teacher gets his

[Zephyr]

Hey guys, I just remembered something.
Every year there's a fishing show in MI and there's a game where you can catch and keep trout!
Maybe next year I could snag a few and try to breed them, or ship them to some one who can breed them for us! :D

[Zephyr]

Lochow Ranch - we're proud of our ponds (http://www.lochowranch.com/products/fish/trout.shtml)

[drache]

and when they grow too big for the snakes - I've got some lovely recipes

how come they won't spawn in Texas?
and will they spawn in neighbouring states?

[SerpentGirl]

I feed my Ribbon snake guppies & platys, is that OK?

[Lori P]

Guppies and Platys are good. :-) Those are two fish mentioned over and over, from the little reading I did, that get no negative remarks.

[SerpentGirl]

That is good news. Thanks. :)

[Zephyr]

Ya know... I've got a second idea.
Convicts are readily available, and I've personally had experience with them being prolific.
Doesn't it sound easy to setup a 10 gallon unheated tank with a minor type of filtration and breed convict cichlids for food? I've never heard of them containing thiaminase.

[SerpentGirl]

Originally Posted by Zephyr http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/images/green/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/2407-fish-post39891.html#post39891)
Ya know... I've got a second idea.
Convicts are readily available, and I've personally had experience with them being prolific.
Doesn't it sound easy to setup a 10 gallon unheated tank with a minor type of filtration and breed convict cichlids for food? I've never heard of them containing thiaminase.

----
Well, convict cichlids are known as the "rabbits" of fish breeding, but they will need more than 10 gallons to live & breed comfortably. They are very aggressive, and need space to get away from each other & adults can get 6"-8", and 10 gallons won't be big enough. Most people recommend 25-29 gallons as the minimum for just the pair. And they really should have a heater, they prefer temps around 70-80°F. I was a member of a fish forum for a couple years, and read quite a bit about these guys. I hope this helps. :)

[drache]

I'd think breeding convicts for feeder fish would be rather space and/or labour intensive
water changes, water changes . . .

[Zephyr]

I'd think breeding convicts for feeder fish would be rather space and/or labour intensive
water changes, water changes . . .Well, of course, if you want high quality feeders.
But just think of the condition goldfish and rosies arrive to stores as. :P
I think neutral care from one of us would be better than the suppliers.

[Lori P]

I just bought frozen beef heart for the first time (the kind all chopped up for the fishies, frozen into little cubes) and OMG, the minnows went NUTS over it!! They reacted to that much stronger than the shrimp, blood worms, and tubifex worms. They absolutely swarmed the beef heart in a frenzy. Must be VERY yummy!!

[enigma200316]

SerpentGirl is spot on in her advice, and as for water changes if you have the right filter you only have to do water changes once a week and only 25-30% of the water.....I love Aquariums and have had atleast one ever since I was 5 years old, although that don't say much for the age now......:D:D but anyway I also happen to love Cichlids and between me and my cousin we have 3 Oscars, 3 Convicts two are paired and have had thousands of babies, 1 Jack Dempsy, 2 Green terrors, 1 Red-Devil...........
I just thought I'd throw my experiance in there............:)

[Zephyr]

I've SPAWNED another idea! *pun intended! :D*
How about zebra danios? Or white clouds? They are very prolific, cheap, and streamlined in shape, and don't need as large a tank AND can be housed communally! :D

[drache]

both of those sound like good feeders

[enigma200316]

all Danios would be great for the simple reason that they breed easy, and are very easily taken care of....................:) (10-20 Gallon is fine)

[Zephyr]

Yeah, and you could breed your own. :D

[misskris]

Here's a start on "safe" feeder fish: Flathead minnows, Guppies, Rose Minnows, and Zebra fish are all ok.


BUMP

10 lletter's ehh? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Should be enough :)

[Snake lover 3-25]

?????:confused:??????

[brain]

My garters are fed as follows:

Also, never feed garters fish that has been frozen/thawed, and do not boil or cook fish prior to feeding. This will destroy much of the nutritional content of the meat.

So it’s rare the you feed your snake salmon or tilapia? I mean fresh caught anything is hard to come by without any expense attached.
The local super market taunts fresh fish but is really flash frozen the shipped to the consumer.

[infernalis]

So it’s rare the you feed your snake salmon or tilapia? I mean fresh caught anything is hard to come by without any expense attached.
The local super market taunts fresh fish but is really flash frozen the shipped to the consumer.


That's a funny thing about public forums, as our education and opinions change, the past is there to haunt us.

I too have said things long ago, cast in stone forever to be referenced and pointed out later.

Tilapia and Salmon are very good garter food.

I had to troll back to find where this quote originated, and I'm sure rosies are out now (no longer fed) I know I ceased to use them a while back.

[brain]

TY Wayne for the clarity. I guess what she meant to say was watch very closely for freezer burn. As that is a collection point for ammonia. Right?

[infernalis]

No what it means is that her views have changed along the way.

She had only been a member for 2 months or less at the time that post was made.

When I first joined, I was feeding goldfish and rosies myself, Now I know that it would have killed my fish if I had continued doing so.

However, I do throw away any freezer burned fish, just because it looks unappealing to me, so I would not feed something that nasty to something as precious to me as my snakes.

I have made some posts in the past I am less than proud of as well.

[brain]

Yes informed is the key to learning and sooo ... No frozen fish?

[infernalis]

YES frozen fish, most all of us feed frozen Tilapia, Salmon or Trout on a regular basis.

I sure hope it's good for them.:D

[brain]

Ok, good then. What I got from the earlier post, with the comment;

“Also, never feed garters fish that has been frozen/thawed, and do not boil or cook fish prior to feeding. This will destroy much of the nutritional content of the meat.”

Just threw me.

[infernalis]

It did me too, I'm sure when she gets home from work and reads this, she will have a comment or two.

Hi Shannon (waves)

I like to troll through old posts and threads too....

[snakeman]

I don't feed my garters any fish .Unless they are babies to get them started on pinks.I don't see the point.

[adamanteus]

Tom, I think variety is important in a Garters diet. Although all mine will take pinkies I still feed them a balance of pinks, 'safe' fish and worms.

[snakeman]

They have been saying the same thing for eastern hognose and drymarchon for years.There is nothing to back it up.No larger litters or increased longevity.

[brain]

My snakes get mice and rats to vary the diet.

So most of you do the same for your garters with fish, worms and slugs. I have noticed most here will use pinkies for food stuff.

I wonder in the wild just how lucky a small garter i.e. ordinoides or radix would be in getting this snack of pinkies?

[snakeman]

It would be pretty rare.Exept for some west coast species.

[infernalis]

I feed variety for economic reasons...

I can get slabs of Tilapia and Salmon for a dollar.

Worms and Dace are free.

My pinks are not too bad, breeding mice keeps that cost down.