Hello!!

[NFS07]

So I saw a Puget Sound Garter on another fourm that someone had just gotten and well love at first sight. So now I'm seeking info on them. I like to know as much as I can about something before I get it. I spent four month learning about cornsnakes before I put in an order and while I waited I still was looking up info and asking questions. I just want to make sure that I know as much as I can so that I can offer the snake the best life that I can.

My name is Nicole and I'm from VA, USA. I'm 18 in college and working to keep up with my needs... mainly my animals needs. I have one male cornsnake, 2 dogs, 2 cats, and a fish. I'm ready to add to my collection but first I need to know more.

[adamanteus]

Hi Nicole, and welcome to the forum.:)
You've come to the right place for Garter info! Here's a good place to start;
http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Garter_Snake_Care_Sheet

[Stefan-A]

Welcome aboard, Nicole. :)

[Lulu Bennett]

Hi Nicole and welcome to the forum.
you will find alot of useful info on here just as i did xxxx

[NFS07]

Thanks for the link it gave me a good start in understanding what I will be getting myself into.

Thanks for all the replies. I hope I am able to learn a lot.

[Sid]

HI Nicole and welcome to the forum. The care sheet link James had in his reply to you is a great place to start. If you have other questions after reviewing it, feel free to ask. Members here are always ready to help.

[gregmonsta]

Hiya :) you're in the best place for garter fun.

[Lori P]

Hey Nicole! You sound like me; I fell head over heels in love with the Pugets, then found this forum, bugged everyone to death with questions, and then hunted till I found my Pugets. And I am STILL crazy about them!!!!

So ask away... this is a great forum, wonderful wonderful people, and lots of knowledge here.

I'm in Va too!!! Near Richmond. Where are you?

:-) Lori

[NFS07]

Oh! I'm in Woodbridge, Prince william county. About 2 hours north of richmond, depending on traffic.

So Lori how easy are they to care for? I have seen a few threads about garter's dieing, is that common? How easy is it to switch Pugets over to mice? If they made the switch could I still offer a fish or two everyonce inawhile with out them falling back and not taking the mouse? How easy are they to get ahold of? I'm not big into breeding animals but how hard is it? Can they really get out of just about anything? Do their needs differ much from the care sheet in the link above?

Sorry for the mass of questions they all just popped into my head.

THANK YOU!!!! To anyone who answers them.

[adamanteus]

There have been quite a few deaths recently, but I don't think this is necessarily typical. Garters are generally easy to care for.
The care sheet article you read is as true for Pugets as for any Garter species, but please feel free to ask any specific questions you have.
Once you get your snake to take pinky mice, you can vary the diet between mice and fish as you like. Some Garters have dietary preferences, some can be 'problem feeders', but generally speaking a varied diet of pinkies, fish and occasional earthworms (night crawlers)would be acceptable.:)

[Stefan-A]

Garters can be pretty sensitive. Many of them are wildcaught, others are fed improperly or kept improperly. The fact that they are generalists is often misunderstood and that can sometimes lead to people feeding them exclusively with only one type of food, which can in certain cases cause problems in the long run. But the things that have happened to some of our members, could just as well have happened to people with animals from another group of species.

I suppose garters can be a bit tricky, but only because it's easier to do things wrong without realizing it. For example, corns have a much simpler diet. They feed exclusively on animals that provide complete meals, but garters will eat anything from leeches to rodents, both of which might be harmful if it's the only type of food that's offered.

[drache]

hi Nicole
welcome from Brooklyn, NY
nice to have you here

[Sid]

Nicole, to answer on the "escape" concern. All snakes are great escape artist. On my smaller specimens, I house these in 10 gallon aquariums with plastic reptile tops. These are fairly good but tend to be a little flexible, so I keep a weight on them located between the latches. I make my own tops for the larger tanks from 3/8 to 1/2" plywood. I use the clip type latches on them at the front and hinge across the back using duct tape. Have not had any escapes (thank goodness).

[NFS07]

Thanks for all the replies. Is there a list out there of fish that are safe and fish that are not?

[Sid]

The following link is in our care sheet section and quite helpful
Thiamin, Thiaminase, & Goldfish (http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Thiamin,) The list is of coarse fish to avoid.

[Lori P]

Nicole, I was able to get mine to eat pinkies without too much trouble at all, by scenting them with guppies and minnows. And I find now that sometimes they eat the pinkies, sometimes they eat the fish, sometimes they eat bits of both!! So it just depends. One of mine, Mordecai, is a piggy and was super easy to get feeding on pinkies and pieces of salmon as well as live guppies and minnows, or pre-killed fish. The littler one, however, only ate live guppies or minnows swimming in her water bowl for ages... then one day she dove at a fish, hit a piece of pinky instead, and ate it. After that, it was whatever she grabbed out of the water. And finally, she ate prekilled fish off tongs and even once ate a piece of salmon on a plate. It was just an ongoing process.

I don't know anyone in VA who breeds them; I got mine from a man in NYC. I do still have his contact info if you want it. But I know others on here will have them available in the spring.

Mine are VERY skittish; they never have tamed to being handled, so I don't handle them unless necessary. They dart away at the speed of light, lol, so you do have to be careful to not let them dart out of the tank when you're in it.

There is a link to what fish are safe and what aren't, but I don't know how to link it so I'll let someone else do it. :-) Goldfish are a no-no, there is concern over rosy red minnows, but guppies and the larger silver minnows that I'm finding at the bait stores here seem good. Pices of salmon and most trout are also safe.

Woodbridge is beautiful. :-) A little to hectic for my tastes... my mom and grandma go up there periodically to some German market... I can't think of the name of it now.

:-) Lori

[anji1971]

Hi, Nicole! Welcome to the forum. Looks like you're already discovering what a wealth of info can be found here!!:D

[NFS07]

Wow, you guys sure are quick to answer. It's nice. So as far as finding out which fish have thiamin in them could just ask the workers at the petstore or is the chance of them not knowing to high?

I do have a bait shop that I go to (I love fishing) so I could easyly get minnows there. They have all sizes. How would I know which size would work best to the size of the snake? Are those zebra dinos on the ok list or do they have thiamin? They are cheap for me to get and are amusing while they wait to be eaten. I might set up a feeder fish tank in my own home.

"So mister snake what kind of fish do you want today? We have this bright colored one here, this darker one, oh and we can't forget our lovely big fish. So what will you have today?"

Teehee.


Woodbridge is nice but I HATE the taffic. It's insane. I often feel like driving off to the side of the road and walking. I swear there are times where I would get there faster.

[GarterGuy]

Howdy and welcome to the forum Nicole. I also have a pair of Pugets (T.s.pickeringi) and can say thye're great little snakes to have. Mine switched over to eating pinky parts VERY quickly, after only having them scented with fish once or twice. Now they'll eat just about anything, pinks, fish fillet, snails, worms...hhmmm, think that's it....LOL. Haven't had any issues with them switching back, they always seem open to accept what ever I offer. As far as good fish choices, baitshop minnows will do well and yes, danios are ok too. I actually feed mine bits of rainbow trout fillet....I just freeze it and it makes it a bit easier come feeding time then handleing or having to buy live fish all the time. I also forcep feed all my snakes, just makes it easier to control what everyone is getting and also they tend to associate food with the forceps and not my hands....which is always nice...LOL. As far as temperment, they're great too, mine are pretty cool about being handled, although they're still a bit flighty, but that's expected of most baby snakes. They're the more active of my garters too, always seem to be out cruising around the tank or lounging under the heat lamp....don't really hide all that much. Well hope this info. helps some.....oh, as far as where to get them, just be careful to get captive bred animals, wildcaught or even captive born animals can be hard to work with and can have high mortality rates from stress and disease (learned that the hard way). My two I got from one of the members here who breeds garters (arzerkle (http://www.thamnophis.com/classifieds/member.php?uid=1668))..picked them up at a local reptile show. They're in Ohio, so they might hit shows out your way.....drop them a note and see. There also will be plenty of babies from others here I'm sure come spring as well.....if you can wait that long....LOL. Well good luck and feel free to ask any other Q's.

[jompiej]

welcome from holland!

[NFS07]

Hello! This site sure does draw in a lot of people from all over.

How easy are they to bred?

Thanks for all the replies. It's really helping me get a better understand of what I will be taking on. I think I have run out of questions.

If anyone knows of breeders or thinks they will have babies soonish please either post here or PM. I would like to at least know where I could get one or a pair.

HA! New question. Should I get one single one or a pair? I saw a post about being able to cohab this guys. So should I get a pair and have them in either a 30g or in a cage that is 48x24x17.5?

[Lori P]

They do seem to be very social. Mine are always together. I call it cuddling, James calls it inhabiting the best spot at the same time. LOL :-) I think they find comfort from each other, but that's just me. :-)

I think like with any animal, if you are serious about breeding and willing to learn all the ins and outs, you should have a good chance of being succesful. I know I'm not ready for the responsibility of dozens of little babies popping out one day and having to teach them how to eat. LOL I think I'd have a heart attack from worrying about them!! :-)

[NFS07]

So a pair of the same sex would be best? How active are they? Do they need much direct sunlight?

You guys are so much help. *snuggles are of you*

[Stefan-A]

A pair of the same sex is best if you don't want to breed them. They are very active compared to most other snakes. Direct sunlight should be avoided, the intensity raises the temperature in the terrarium to unhealthy levels in just a couple of minutes. After all, it's basking temperature even if the terrarium is very well ventilated and the snake should always have a cooler spot to retreat to when it gets too hot. If the terrarium is in direct sunlight, it doesn't have that option anymore. In the wild, there is nothing to trap the heat and cool places are always available.

[NFS07]

Ok.

So after reading the caresheet I was thinking I would stay away from aspen but I have seen photos with it in the tanks. Also I don't think the stuff I use is sharp. I'm not at home right now so I can't check. It's the bedding used for rodents, came in bulk. It was sooo much cheaper than the aspen snake stuff and I think it looks better. My corn likes to burrow more in this stuff than the snake aspen.

So could I use that aspen or should I stick to newspaper?

[Stefan-A]

Newspaper is safer. Aspen doesn't need to be sharp to cause an impaction.

I'd be careful using bedding intended for rodents, most of them seem to be made from pine trees and the resin in it gives off fumes that can cause respiratory problems and neurological damage in snakes.

We're all searching for the ideal substrate. :) It's a matter of weighing the pros and cons.

[GarterGuy]

As far as bedding, I REALLY like the Carefresh stuff. It's light, it can be burrowed into, it doesn't contain any toxins, it's easy to clean and if ingested it's easily passed. It's only draw back is it's grey, so it's not real eye appealing, but neither is newprint either...LOL. I use it on ALL my snakes and have had great success with it. I have used the Aspen before, and unfortunately lost a snake due to an impaction....so I completely stay away from it now. I know that some people don't like the Carefresh, stating it's too dry, but I have not had any problems with it for such and all my snakes shed nice complete sheds with nothing more then their water dishes for moisture....so don't really see that as a draw back.

[Odie]

Hi, from Oregon, Nicole :)

[Snaky]

Welcome from Belgium. Have fun here :)

Those blue beauties are truly nice. You'll love them. Garters in general are very fun to have. They are active, curious and very investigative. Hope you'll lean a lot here, you're certainly well on the way with all the questions ;)

[NFS07]

What does the carefresh stuff look like? Do you have a photo of your tank?

Hi Odie and Hans!!! I'm really ready to have one but I'm going to wait till spring so I can have more money and I'm hoping to be in my own apt!!!! I can't wait to move out.

[GarterGuy]

What does the carefresh stuff look like? Do you have a photo of your tank?

Hi Odie and Hans!!! I'm really ready to have one but I'm going to wait till spring so I can have more money and I'm hoping to be in my own apt!!!! I can't wait to move out.


This is my female T.s.concinnus (Petra) tank. Like I said, it's kind of grey and lumpy looking, but I've had great success using it on all my snakes, not just the garters.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//512/medium/Petra_tank.jpg

[Sputnik]

It's the same kind of stuff I use. I think it's called Back2Nature.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v630/MrsSputnik/DSC01380.jpg


Or there is always recycled paper cat litter (and slate)...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v630/MrsSputnik/DSC01382.jpg

[NFS07]

It does not look that bad. That may be something I should look into than.

[Lori P]

I'm going to look into it too. I've been worrying about the aspen, but, I didn't want to take away the snakes' option to burrow and tunnel as they love it so! This looks like a good alternative!

[Roy Munson]

Hi Nicole! I saw your reply in my Puget thread, so I thought I'd give you an official welcome. :)

A few years ago, I tried Carefresh on one of my corn snakes, and I didn't like it. Not only didn't I like the look (which I could have dealt with), but the stuff seemed to suck all of the humidity out of the environment. The snake was in a plastic tub, so humidity control had never been an issue. The snake had always been problem-free and had shed perfectly every time on aspen, but I got a bad shed out of him on Carefresh. His ventral scales also started to look slightly wrinkled and dry/split at the edges. I changed him back to aspen, and everything returned to normal. I still have the rest of the bag of Carefresh. ;)

My two garter pairs are young, so I keep them on paper towels. I haven't decided what I'll use for substrate when they're adults. If I can get them to eat in separate feeding tubs, I may go with aspen for their living enclosures. I'm keeping mine separately. I've been anti-cohab for too long with other snake species to change my ways now (ha ha).

[Lori P]

Ok, well, I bought some Carefresh today to try. The vet had told me that Miriam's fecal sample was slightly grainy, so I started to really worry about her ingesting substrate. But she looooooves to burrow, so I didn't just want to go with paper or carpet. Plus, I'll be changing it a lot the next several weeks as they go thru their parasite treatment, and this is easy to scoop out.

Here they are exploring...

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/M_M_new_bedding_12_14_08_005.jpg

And here's the tank with it... I don't think it looks bad!

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/M_M_new_bedding_12_14_08_002.jpg

Little Miriam, looking soooo much better :-)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/M_M_new_bedding_12_14_08_004.jpg

And Esme, the milksnake's tank...

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Esme_12_14_2008_007.jpg

I sure don't want to dry them out... so will watch them carefully!!!

[drache]

I find that supplying a damp hide makes care fresh okay

[Lori P]

Well, and it's just recycled paper pulp, so I'm thinking it would be akin to them lying on and burrowing under paper towels... but will keep Dean's experience in mind.

Plus, it comes in many fashion colors... pink, blue, white, and natural... LOL!!

[salzar]

welcome to the forum. bye
michelle

[GarterGuy]

Hey, Lori the tanks look great.....hope you have as good an experiance with the Carefresh as I've had. RM's story is one I've heard from others, but like I said, I've had ALL my snakes on Carefresh now for several years, even the baby garters, with out EVER having any issues with them being too dry. They all shed, nice complete sheds and I don't have any problems with dry or split ventral scales on them. They aren't in plastic tubs though, and have good sized cages with lots of room to move around, onto different surfaces and also have large water dishes to soak and swim in if needed (although I've never seen them in there water dishes, except for a drink or just a minute or two swim). Also the relative humidity in the room is only at 30-40% during the winter, so the room's not providing anything extra. I wonder if kept in rack systems the bedding does dry their skin out, due to the fact they're always just sitting on it and usually tubs only have very small water dishes ( I imagine that extra humidity is gained even from H2O evaporating from the larger dishes...although my Thayeri kings don't have large dishes in their tanks?). Anyways, it's always good to keep an eye on your critters wheh you make any big change like this, but I do hope that you have as good of luck with it as I.

Roy

PS......Glad to see Miriam looking better.:D

[NFS07]

Well I think I may try the carefresh when I get garters but I'm going to keep my corn on aspen. He likes it and I have not had any problems so far but I will try the carefresh with the garters. Dean I'll keep in mind what you said and keep a very good eye on how they are looking and how the hum is doing. Thanks for the welcome by the way!

Lori your tanks look great and I hope your little ones do better.

[mycolorfulheart]

Welcome, it's good to hear you say you want to learn everything possible before getting a pet....i learned that lesson the hard way with hermit crabs!

A question for other members---
Could you use coconut bedding (ecoearth, forestbedding) for a decent substrate?

[tikichick]

Howdy from Texas! :D Glad to have you here!

[NFS07]

Hello colorful heart and tiki. I'm glad to be here.


I have an aunt who lives in Austin, TX. I have not talked to her in a long time but I know she is down there some where.

[tikichick]

It's the best town in TX, imho. :)

[NFS07]

lol. Im sure it is.