Worried about Miriam :-(

[Lori P]

Guys... I'm worried about little Miriam. She is just so... sluggish lately. She ate two small guppies over the weekend, but only because I dangled them in front of her. She doesn't hunt anymore... she was the one who used to only eat live fish out of the water, and would hunt them like crazy. She doesn't bother now. She was in this spot when I left this morning, and she's still there tonite. She's so tiny... does she look thin to you guys? Can you tell from this pic? She just seems... lethargic. She does nto eat regularly, but I think the longest she's ever gone is 3 weeks and that's been a few months.

Could she just be slow for the winter?? She wasn't interested in eating this morning, but hopefully by the weekend I can get a couple minnows into her.

She just worries me... she used to be rpetty skittish and lately she doesn't even run when I reach in the tank. I don't handle her, I just mean when I reach in to feed or change water.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Miriam_1_9_08.jpg

[Sputnik]

Lori, does she react at all when you put your hand near her? When you say she's been in this position all day.. has she even moved her head?

[Lori P]

Um. I don't know. I haven't tried. OMG, is she dead??? I don't want to look!!!! :-( :-( Ok... let me go see...

[Lori P]

Ok, she moved. But I actually had to touch her before she moved, and then she didn't dart away, she just moved away.

[Sputnik]

She doesn't look too happy, no. But I'm glad she moved. :)
Do you think she's warm enough?

[Stefan-A]

Try picking her up. Does she seem limp or weak, or does she still have strength in her muscles?

That's how I eventually realized something was very wrong with my parietalis male.

[Lori P]

The temp in there now, where she is, is 74 F. That's the normal night time temp, and during the day there's a basking spot of 80. What do you think??

[Sid]

Lori, wish I had some good advice for you. Her body weight looks pretty good in the photo. Do think I would raise the temp a few degrees and see if it helps.

[Lori P]

Stefan, she is limp and weak. She didn't resist when I picked her up and while she did raise her body up in my hand, it was slow. She just felt weak.

I am raising the temp now... it's up to 78... :(:(:(

[Elliot]

I don't know what to add to what has already been said, but good luck.:(

[anji1971]

Oh Lori, best of luck...........you don't need any more sad things to happen.:(

[Stefan-A]

Damn. I hope she recovers. :(

[GarterGuy]

Sorry to hear that Miriam isn't doing well. Babies are so hard sometimes. I hope she pulls out of whatever has her down. Raising the temp. should definitely help out. Good luck with her.

[scorpio]

Hi,

does she feel better now?

You can try red light. Perhaps it'll help her. Is it possible that she's pregnant. Perhaps some complications on this way?

Best wishes, Irina

[Lori P]

Thanks guys for all the help. I raised the temp up to 90 and she laid directly under that heat lamp all night, from what I can see. I've just switched over to the daytime light, so will also keep that up at 90. She hasn't moved, but she is alive.

But I need to HELP HER-- what can I DO???? What's WRONG with her?? I'll talk to my vet today, but I'm not sure he is that much of an expert... I don't want to bring her in and stress her unless he thinks he can help her. I have an appt there anyways at 9 with one of the dogs, so I'll talk to him then.

I just looked back at her feeding schedule and it's not that bad... she skipped two whole weeks in November, not three, but then she generally has eaten once a week (even tho I offer it twice) up until the end of Dec. when she skipped one week. Then she ate twice more. So it's not like she's been totally off feed. And she's eaten different things; pinky parts, salmon, minnows.

ANY other ideas?? Is 90 ok if she's choosng to lay under it??

[drache]

Lori
sorry to hear Miriam is not doing well
she does not look thin to me
quite a few of my snakes slow down at this time of the year, even if I try to fool them by keeping light and heat on a summer schedule - it seems they still kind of know what time of year it is
but Miriam seems to have something more than that going on
if this was my snake, I'd try warm baths with electrolytes (my low intervention plan for many problems) in addition to raising the heat in the tank
after that I'd be stumped and take her to the vet

[adamanteus]

Lori, I have no useful suggestions to offer. I just wish you the best of luck, and hope she's okay. X

[Lori P]

Hi guys-- wanted to let you know I took Miriam to the vet this am-- he was able to get a tiny bit of feces, and she is LOADED with flagellates-- over-loaded, is how he put it. He's not sure if that's the whole problem, but, we are going to start there. I actually have to take her back tonite for treatment as he had to have time to figure out the dose, because she is so tiny (just under 4 grams). I'm going to take Mordecai in as well, since they live together.

I feel so stupid... why the hell didn't I check a fecal earlier... I truly hope this is the main problem and we can get her back on track.

Check fecals, guys. I know we will always have parasites to deal with, but we should have a good deworming protocol in place to prevent overloads like this. I just hope I didn't wait too long.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

oopsssssss

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

hope it goes well lori!! thats another reason why i like to feed frozen stuf

[adamanteus]

As many of you know, I use amphibians as food occasionally, so I do worry about parasite infestation. I have a microscope and do faecal flotations on my own snakes...... with a little practice, parasite eggs are quite easy to spot.

[Lori P]

The flagellates aren't actually worms, they are a bacteria-- like giardia, or coccidia. (But you can still see them under a microscope) Dr. Engle is treating them with Metronidazole. I think that since since their parents were wild caught, there's an excellent chance they passed this bacteria on to the babies, and then I also think that because Miriam wouldn't eat anything but live fish for so long she certainly picked up more bacteria from them. Now, why she is over run with them while Mordecai is not, could be related to another problem she's having; her immune system could be down, so the bacteria took over. And then it just became a vicious cycle.

They will get treated 2 weeks apart for 3 treatments. He is tubing them, and I'm going to just let him do it each time so we know it's done right.

Miriam weighs just under 4 grams, and Mordecai weighs 20 grams!!!! What a difference huh??!!

I'm testing fecals on all the snakes here now. I think I'll test them every 6 months or so from now on.

[drache]

Lori
I'm so glad you caught it
hopefully you'll find out what led to the parasite bloom, once you've dealt with that part

[anji1971]

Glad to hear it was something you can treat. Best wishes for her now, Lori!:)

[GarterGuy]

Glad to hear that you were able to catch it and are now treating Miriam. Hopefully with the meds and some extra TLC she'll pull through. Even though it's fun to watch them catch live fish....you might want to think about feeding f/t fish fillet, just to reduce the possibilty of them picking up something. I'm totally paranoid about this and feed all my snakes only f/t foods.

[zooplan]

Good luck, Lori.
I´ve fought flagellates on my new amel. red sided males last year, when they were as tiny as Miriam.
They have grown to 13 and 19 gramms now.

[Lori P]

Hey guys, so, let me run this by you. Miriam is definitley perkier. She was moving around this weekend a little, and keeping her head up more. And so on Sat morning I offered her a pre-killed minnow off the tongs-- and she snatched it!!

However... a few minutes later, she had dropped it.

So I waited a few hours, and tried a guppy-- again, she snatched it-- and then dropped it.

What do you think?? Could her mouth/throat be sore from the tubing?? What makes them strike but drop prey??

Thanks guys...

[KITKAT]

The medication for flagellates is VERY VERY bitter.

Could be a sore mouth, but it is also possible she is just still "shuddering" from the bitter medication... in other words, a memory association.

Give her a couple of days and try again.

[adamanteus]

Wise words, eloquently put, from KITKAT there. A few more days and she'll eat!:)

[Lori P]

Oh thank you!! That makes me feel better. Mordecai had no such ill effects, in fact he ate two large pinkies and 3 large minnows on Sat-- that's the most he's ever eaten at one sitting!!

Also, I found a product from Jungle Labs today called Anti-Parasite-- it's a medicated fish food. It treats fish for flagellates, trematodes, cestodes (the ones that cause hole-in-the-head), sironucleus, intestinal worms, tapeworms, and nematodes. It contains Metronidazole (that's what the snakes are being treated with), praziquantel, and levamisole. So I'm going to de-worm the fishies from now on before I feed them to the snakes.

[drache]

I guess flagellates are not eliminated by freezing
I was trying to find more info on that and it looks like they aren't

[tikichick]

I'm so glad you caught that!

I'm using yam baby food on a couple monitors since it's a natural de-wormer for lizards. Anyone know if that would work on snakes?

[Lori P]

Yams, pumkin seeds, tobacco are all natural dewormers, but I suspect that whatever chemicals in the plants are the active anti-parasitics are probably destroyed during the processing of the plant. So no, you don't get de-wormed by smoking. LOL

But the same de-wormers work for all species; just the concentration varies.

[adamanteus]

Just a note.... tobacco is toxic to snakes.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

im glad my parents dont smoke or i wouldnt be able to keep snakies

Just a note.... tobacco is toxic to snakes.

[Lori P]

Miriam ate a minnow this morning!!!!! :-) And she kept it down. Phew!!!!! :-)

[tikichick]

Excellent!! :)

[Stefan-A]

That's great news. :)

[adamanteus]

Great news, Lori. Well done!:D

[drache]

congrats
that's great news

[GarterGuy]

Very good news Lori, hopefully this is the turning point for her to come back to health.

[Lori P]

I hope so. I'll scent some pinky parts heavily for her and see if we can get some VARIETY down her tomorrow. :-) :-)

[anji1971]

Oh, I'm so glad to hear she ate! I hope this is the end of the bad stuff for her now!

[scorpio]

Congratulation,

I hope Miriam will have a beautiful long live.

[Lori P]

Now here's a VERY nice sight indeed!! Little Miriam filled herself right up today!! :):) Look at that fat little belly!!

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Miriam_nice_sight_to_see_002.jpg

[Sid]

Great news, Lori. Love the photo and congratulations:D.

[tikichick]

Aw, she's so cute and pudgey :D