Snake died during hibernation (photos!)

[reptileparadise]

One of my snakes, a 2,5 year old thamnophis cyrtopsis cyrtopsis with a good weight died during its hibernation.
It happens...
But when I took a closer look, I noticed something strange.
Here are some pictures. Any one an idea?
Blood around its mouth...But as far as I can see, no rott.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/Kousebanden/TCC2doodSmall.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/Kousebanden/TCCbekcloseupSmall.jpg

Small pox on his belly?
Only two of them. His entire body was okay, except for these two spots.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/Kousebanden/TCC2doodwinterslaapSmall.jpg

[Stefan-A]

Stomatitis? Lower temperature - weakened immune system - death? :confused:

Sorry about the loss, by the way.

[reptileparadise]

That was the first thing I thought off. I have never seen any signs of it though.

[GarterGuy]

That sucks.....sorry about that:(. Yeh, I was also thinking Stomatitis, could have been that he always had a bit of it, but like Stefan said, the lowered immune system of a brumating snake may have allowed it to go totally systemic and just run through the poor snake.

[anji1971]

Sorry about your loss.:(

[ssssnakeluvr]

sorry for your loss....not sure why it passed. it's not uncommon to lose a snake or 2 during brumation....I have lost a few over the years, all appeared healthy going into brumation and just died...it sucks....

[reptileparadise]

Thanks everyone...
This is the first snake I have lost during brumation and sadly, I'm going to lose another one. My male radix looks like he is gasping for air, with a strange bend in his neck. He acted normal when I woke him up, but now, about 4 hours after waking up, his condition is very very bad.
man...what a way to start 2008 :s

[zooplan]

Sorry for your loss, Sjoerd.
Are your snakes still in brumation, or have you started to warm them up?
I´ve lost a female ´parietalis last year without any visible reason.

[adamanteus]

Sjoerd, I'm sorry to hear your bad news. I wouldn't like to guess on the cause of death on the cyrtopsis. It doesn't really look like stomatitis, does it?

[reptileparadise]

@ Udo: Yes, I warmed everyone up today.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/2373-hibernation-ended.html

@ James: I wouldn't know. I thought I would have seen something if he ahd it before he went in hibernation. But I have never noticed anything. He was even eating fine before he went to sleep...

[CrazyHedgehog]

Sorry for the loss Sjoerd, no idea to the death however, if it had been dead a little while could the blood and marks be from the death itself...like the first signs of the rotting process..? just a guess:confused:

[reptileparadise]

No, Thats not it. He was fine a week ago (last check-up). Looking at the temperature (about 5 or 6 celcius) rotting wouldn't start withing a week after dying (i think...)

[jewel-dragons]

rotting in hibernation is almost not possible,maybe after a few weeks,the low temperature conserve it for a few weeks i think.

but what i also write on a other forum..... loosing snakes sucks very much.... sorry for that

i also lost a radix red albino this winter,but 3 days after coming out the fridge....
all the other >50 garters are in good healty...

[Gijs & Sabine]

I'm very sorry to hear such bad news, Sjoerd :(
I have to agree with most of the others, sometimes you just can't figure out what the problem was....

[garterchick]

sorry for your loss, i know how you feel and it sucks.

[Elliot]

Sorry about your loss, I guess it's just another part of keeping snakes.:(

[drache]

I'm so sorry, Sjoerd
brumation is a bit scary, I think

[Lori P]

So sorry for your loss, Sjoerd. It's so frustrating when you don't have an answer as to why.

[tikichick]

That's so sad. Sucks to lose them and especially without a clear reason why. :(

[reptileparadise]

Thanks everyone,
I have performed an autopsy and will place some pictures soon.
It looks like the animals was to fat. I also found a lot of fattissue around its guts. After removing organs and fat the snake had lost 29% of its weight.

[Sid]

Sjoerd, really sorry to hear of the loss.

[drache]

Sjoerd
do you think the fat was what killed the snake - like a fatty organ problem (heart, liver, or the gut itself)?
if so - there goes the theory that they ought to put on some weight to see them through brumation
I have a tendency to let my snakes' weight creep up sometimes
now there's another reason not to do that
you did your own autopsy?

[adamanteus]

I don't see the link between excess fat and oral bleeding. Unless Inge is right with her suggestion of early decomposition.

[reptileparadise]

I know James, I still cant explain the bloody slime from the mouth.

[Snaky]

Sorry to hear of your you loss Sjoerd :(