The $50 pinkies

[Lori P]

Ok. So last weekend, the only store close to me that normally has live pinkies only had small fuzzies. Brought one home for Dedemona (the kingsnake who only eats live) and it was too big for her. She ended up killing it but not eating it. So the poor girl did not eat last weekend. I tried to find live pinkies throughout the week to no avail, even ran an ad on Craig's List but got no close responses. Then I tried a few nights tempting her with a nice warm jiggling f/t but she wasn't having it.

So this morning I start calling the pet stores. NO ONE has live pinks... except for one... so I head out.

And 100-some miles later (at $3 a gallon for gas), $5 in tolls, and two and a half hours out of my life I finally got back home with four newborn TINY pinkies.

So I figure those things cost me at least $50 today if not more... LOL!!!! So I made the decision to try and make my own pinkies. Yeah... me... with two adorable breeder mice...

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/breeder_mice_003.jpg

I put them in a bow front 40 gallon tank, with that box for them to play in and on and under (can you see the one peeking from under?) and got them a wheel to run in. Now... who's taking bets on how long before I realize I am attached to my meeces and can't possibly feed those adorable babies???!!!

Wish me luck!! Also... I didn't buy a prepared mouse pellet. I have so much food here for the other critters that I'm chopping up daily anyways... the horses get apples and carrots, the lizard gets veggies, we always have other fruits in the house, I always have oats and organic cereals and stuff... why can't I feed them a variety of healthy foods and be ok? Whatcha think? I'm even thinking the horse feed would be ok for them...

[Stefan-A]

Don't worry, you'll snap out of it when you run out of ideas what to do with their offspring, ;)

[Lori P]

I figure I can just seperate them after a couple litters... and then put them back together from time to time. I'm also thinking that there have to be people near me with the same problem, so I'll advertise pinkies when I have them and see how that goes. And if all else fails, I'll get the little boy neutered and let them live out their lives here. :-)

[tikichick]

Cool! I'm fixing to do the same thing. :)

I don't know what the vitamin requirements are, so it may be good to look into some pellet foods for that purpose, but it looks like a varied fresh diet is right on...

Breeding mice for food (http://www.exotic-pets.eu/mice.php)

Feeding:

"Provide a small bowl/dish with mice/gerbil/hamster or rat food in and change it daily, if you are able to then supplement the mice’s diet with fresh fruit and vegetables in a similar dish as well as mealworms and wax worms when possible. Fresh fruit and vegetables help promote better digestion and bone and organ growth as do mealworms and wax worms."

[Bay_area]

$50...LOL! That is why I started breeding my own. I probly have 1000 mice in the freezer right now. My wife hates that I do not have a seperate freezer:p.
I feed my mice a mixture of "Old Roy's Dog food" (The one in the orange bag, 50lbs for $10) & wild bird seed. I throw in left over vegetables & fruits.
The biggest problem with breeding mice is the smell:eek: It only takes a couple of days before you can smell them. I get wood shavings from a friend that works @ the city park maintenence. So, changing the beeding isn't costly, just nasty...LOL!
If you do not want to deal with breeding mice, you might want to check into any local Herp Club. There always seems to be a rodent breeder that goes to them.
Good luck, Jerry

[adamanteus]

I read somewhere that you should feed 'wet food' (fruit and veg) quite sparingly... but what do I know about rodents?:rolleyes:

[Lori P]

Wow, I didn't realize they'd eat mealworms and waxworms! Interesting!! Thanks for the link, Laura.

Jerry, good thinking on the herp club!! When I put my ad on Craig's List looking for pinkies, a couple people did email me who belong to the nearest herp club but it turns out, they all live around the same area and that's near where the store is that I went to today. I guess out here in hicksville, the farmers just aren't into pet snakes... LOL!!! But hopefully I can find some closer people soon... if not, I'm going to have to gather up alllllllllll my animals and move in with James to be closer to most of you... :D

[adamanteus]

I'm going to have to gather up alllllllllll my animals and move in with James to be closer to most of you... :D


I'm making a bed up for you now, Lori.:D

[Loren]

Wow Jerry- 1000? you got me beat. Last inventory I only had about 700 rodents in my freezer.
My breeding colony is about 45 female mice to 15 males( (15) 3 to 1 cages), and 18 female rats and about 3 "rotating" males.
I clean 1 time every week. Takes alittle over an hour to clean and feed the whole works if I really work hard, unless I am doing sorting/killing/feeding, which adds time. Thats why theres a tv in the reptile room. Tonight(saturday night) has been cleaning night lately.
The thing you need to learn, Lori, is that there are certain "social" rules with mice. For example, if you raise a few females together for several weeks and then try to introduce a male- they will likely kill him. I always try to raise breeders together from young ages, and introduce them to the cage at the same time. In fact, some of my best breeders are very inbred. New blood just doesnt seem to work well in my mouse colony. I dont seem to fight that with the rats, though.
And yes- my reptile room smells terrible by saturday- gets hard to handle. Soon coming is hopefully a somewhat climate controlled shed for them so I can enjoy my reptile room.

[tikichick]

Thanks for the info on social rules! I didn't realize they'd kill a male like that. :eek:

[KITKAT]

Best commercial mouse food on the market is actually Purina Mouse Chow. NOT... I repeat... NOT... Purina Lab Chow, which is routinely fed to mice and rats.

Mouse Chow is hard to find.:rolleyes:

[Loren]

Mine get "lab" diet or "chow" diet- or whatever kind of dog it is that you buy the Atta Boy for (13.99 for 60 lbs - costco). High protein(about the highest of any cheap dogfood), fish oil for good coats, very limited amount of hard-to-pronounce ingredients, regular old brown color. Same thing I feed to my dogs.
I noticed the caresheet link above said 5-10 babies per litter average- I would say more like 10-12 average, with up to 18 possible. A female's first litter may be smaller though, and it depends on the strain of mice you have. Sometimes all 3 females in a cage birth at once, and I'll have 45 babies in the pile.

[Rook]

lol, hey I breed my own food for Rook. dont think it would work so well with live pinkies though lol. gerbil Pinkies are larger then mice pinkies, so they are culled as soon as they are born, if I didnt, I would end up overrun lol.

[Stefan-A]

How much space would a 3+1 colony need?

[zooplan]

1,3 mice need a tube of 40 x 25 cm base size
I´ve tried to breed pinkies too, but the smell made me to quit.

[tikichick]

What's a 3+1 colony, Stefan?

[Stefan-A]

What's a 3+1 colony, Stefan?
I meant a colony of three females and one male. :)



1,3 mice need a tube of 40 x 25 cm base size
I´ve tried to breed pinkies too, but the smell made me to quit.
Okay.
Yeah, the smell.. A major problem. I had one mouse for one week last year and the smell it generated was enough for me. :D Had hamsters for much longer than that and they never even came close to smelling as bad as that one mouse. I've read about a few tricks to reduce the smell problem, but apparently the result still isn't a significant reduction.

[Lori P]

LOTS of good info here, thanks!!!!!! Is it the male mouse that generates the smell?? I only ask because I had pet mice as a kid, but only females, and never had a smell issue. I'm thinking the male probably marks a lot.

I sniffed the tank this morning... so far so good... LOL!! I'm thinking, I could always move them out to the garage with a heat lamp... think??

Do you know, the guy who runs the pet shop (it's called Off The Ark, the owner is Vinnie, they advertise on Kingsnake frequently) raises his rats outside... even in the winter. He said he MUCH prefers rats to mice, he warned me that mother mice are nervous and if everything isn't perfect they'll eat their babies right away.

But since I don't need bulk, I hope I can handle these two. But I'm also thinking that as soon as Desdemona gets some size, if I still can't get her onto f/t, I could swap the mice for either two gerbils or two rats.

I never hear of hamsters for snake food. Any reason??

[Stefan-A]

If I've understood it correctly, it's indeed the male that smells the worst. The smell is supposed to be worst after cleaning the cage, when it starts marking its territory again.

Hamsters are supposed to be very fatty, but I hear some people use them to fatten up their snakes for breeding. Hamsters aren't nearly as productive as mice, which could be a reason. Another is that colonies are out of the question, they're solitary animals, which increases the necessary number of cages.

[Bay_area]

Wow Jerry- 1000? you got me beat. Last inventory I only had about 700 rodents in my freezer.

But you sell mice to Herb, I have not sold any frozen mice, just live to the local kids that have 1 or 2 snakes.

[tikichick]

I meant a colony of three females and one male. :)

Cool, thanks! I'm still learning all the number lingo ;)

[Stefan-A]

That wasn't "the lingo", I should have said 1.3. :)

[Lori P]

OH GOOD HEAVENS!!!!

WHERE did that odor come from????? Like literally overnight!!!! Jeezy creezy (lol, been watching Izzard this week) they did not smell yesterday, I swear, but this morning I walked in the room and bam, wicked nasty mouse pee odor!!! That little boy must have gone on a mark fest last night.... aaarrrrgh!!!!

LOL... well, you warned me!!!

[Stefan-A]

Yes, we did. :D

I would have suggested getting Natal rats (Praomys natalensis) instead of mice. ;) Larger than mice, smaller than the common rats (i.e. gerbil size) and they aren't as smelly.

[Loren]

Lori, now you can see why I want a separate shed to raise my rodents in. I have 15 males and 45 females, plus their babies, and a rat colony of 20 something-plus their babies, all in my 9 x 15 foot reptile room. Thankfully it is not part of my house.
I am working on plans for a 6 x 8 foot shed that I will build soon. Gonna insulate it and install a small air conditioner(I have a spare since I just upgraded the reptile room to an 8500 btu) so I can climate control it at the colder and hotter times of the year, but put a couple small windows with a fan for the rest of the year. I think the reptiles will like the lack of ammonia too. I have a tv and radio and vacuum cleaner and carpet and all that in the reptile room, plus heat and a/c, so I cant wait to be able to enjoy it again. Then comes satelite hookup for the tv... well, better upgrade the tv first- those wall mounted flat panels are pretty space efficient:).

[CrazyHedgehog]

To stop the smell, we just moved them out of the house!!
We insulated a shed, floor, cieling, even the door, built some shelves and put them in tubs..
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/mousecages.jpg

If you house more than one male with another,(in a large colony) they will keep 'spraying' to make their scent the strongest in competition! (That is if they don't fight to the death!:()

When you clean the tubs out, wipe with a dry cloth all the old bedding out, do not wash the tub very often...this way the scent weakens, but is still there a bit so the mice do not feel the need to spray so much!

Mice often kill their first litter as they panic or don't know what they are doing...they can have their first litter at 6 weeks old and the first couple of litters are usually about 4 to 6 pinkies...
litters every 3-4 weeks...
big litters can be around 15-18 pinkies..
around 10 months old they start to get smaller litters again and then stop breeding.

I rotate tanks, the top ones are about 9 months old and getting close for the gas chamber..:( their last lot of babies will start the newest tanks up on the bottom of the racks..

[Charlet_2007]

ho you do that im looking for something like for my rats...

[drache]

so how many snakes does that set-up feed?

[Stefan-A]

Nice. :) I'd do something similar if I had a house, a yard and a shed. ;)

I could keep mice like that for about 4 months a year, but that would mean that I'd have to gas the adults every autumn.

[Lori P]

I was thinking that if I left some of the tank sprayed and funky, the odor would start to diminish, as opposed to trying to clean and clean and have him re-spray everything. I bought two of those mineral odor-absorbing bags yesterday and laid them across the top of the tank, hoping that will stop the odor from seeping out.

They are very active, running in their wheel a lot, digging tunnels like crazy, dragging stuff all around the tank... the one thing I DON'T see them doing is the one thing they are SUPPOSED to be doing... LOL!!!! Should I light some candles and play some Barry White?? :)

[drache]

maybe for them The Chipmunks would be easier to relate to - or with?

[CrazyHedgehog]

so how many snakes does that set-up feed?
we had over 100 snakes in the summer, lots of small ones...

we have over 50 now..

havent had to buy mice since we started...but I also suppliment with trout.

[CrazyHedgehog]

I could keep mice like that for about 4 months a year, but that would mean that I'd have to gas the adults every autumn.
why? :confused:

[Stefan-A]

Because I have access to a shed that's warm enough during the summer months, but not during the winter and I can't keep them indoors, because of other people's allergies, the smell the mice produce and lack of space.

[CrazyHedgehog]

it gets damn cold here in winter ice and snow etc... we have insulated the shed and have a small greenhouse tube heater just to keep the chill off.

[Lori P]

Omg! I got up this morning and on my way to the coffee pot, peeked in as always into the room with the mouse tank... and could not figure out what I was seeing... turned out to be my &%#^ cat Evie INSIDE THE MOUSE TANK... lol, she had knocked the lid off and was sitting in the middle of the darn tank watching them!!! Just... watching them. They were in their little house, both of them staring back at her.

So now the top is weighted down... geeez!!! I've already got to head back across the world to get more pinkies today, I really don't need her eating my potential parents!! LOL

Poor Evie, she gave me this look of Whaaaaaaat??? I was JUST LOOKING!!! LOL

HEY-- another question-- does anyone have those African soft furred rats??? Any input on them as breeders/feeders?? I know they are the prey of choice for balls, but wondering about the pinkies/fuzzies for garters??

[Stefan-A]

:D I can imagine the surprise.

[drache]

cats . . .
I'm learning all about kitten proofing myself - and kitten consciousness
recently I had to deal with a tub of very fast feeder roaches dumped in the kitchen, where I had just set them down for a moment to answer the phone
big mistake

[tikichick]

LMAO!!! What a good girl! At least she didn't eat any :eek:

My kitten knocked over my cricket tub not too long ago and I'm still finding refugees, lol.

I'm on a local reptile forum and one of our members is looking for African soft furred rats. I'll ask him what the appeal is.

[tikichick]

Here's what he said, "They have larger litters, twice as often as mice, and the are Ball Pythons natural food source in Africa. So if you have a picky eater, chances are, that they won't refuse an ASFR."

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

the question is how do we get some??

[tikichick]

This page has some good info and looks like they sell them Journal (http://northtexasreptilebreeders.com/journal.html)

Here's a forum on them, maybe someone there is a breeder African Soft-furred Rats Information and Exchange :: Index (http://asfrats.info/)

[Loren]

Been doing some reading on them today, including those links above- think I might have to try breeding them myself. Havent found any legalities against them yet, and they are supposed to smell less than regular mice and rats. Gestation of 23 days, 12-15 babies pretty typical.

[Lori P]

They always have them on Kingsnake in the feeder classifieds. They are tempting!!

[Loren]

Well, Here's my rodent set-up.

The mice.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/My_mouse_colony.JPG

The rats.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/My_rat_rack_in_use.JPG

[tikichick]

Wow! Those are awesome!

[drache]

that's a great set-up, Loren
did you make the screens for the rat-tubs?
I'm thinking - modified IKEA tub racks

[zooplan]

oh, more photos:)
looks like a lot of work every week
How many snakes do you have to feed?

[Lori P]

Help guys... Desdemona did not eat one of the almost-fuzzies that I bought last night (they only had two small pinkies and a slightly larger almost-fuzzy) and it is wobbling around this morning... I know it's starving... aaarrrrgh, how do I humanely kill it without making myself sick??!!!!! Can I try to feed it to one of the garters -- and how would they kill/eat it, they don't constrict right? I HATE THIS

[Lori P]

Ok. I gave it some warm milk and it has washed its little face and is falling asleep in my hand. Not sure if cow's milk will be digested, but at least for right now it's not suffering!! Oy... darn you Desdemona! LOL

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

i know its terrible sometimes mine do that too, i would feed it to curious :)

Ok. I gave it some warm milk and it has washed its little face and is falling asleep in my hand. Not sure if cow's milk will be digested, but at least for right now it's not suffering!! Oy... darn you Desdemona! LOL

[Lori P]

... Or Reed, he may be more hungry as he only ate 2 minnows yesterday. Curious ate a large pinky and a large minnow. Let me go try that tho and see. My other thought is Eddie Lizzard, my skink... but he hasn't woken up yet.

[Loren]

oh, more photos:)
looks like a lot of work every week
How many snakes do you have to feed?
It takes about 1 and a half hours every weekend to clean all the cages,feed, water, and sort out extras for feeding, and then vacuum the floor. I keep getting faster.
The key is to have a good system. I set up a makeshift table in the room, pull the mouse tubs 1 at a time, and put the mice in a bucket while I change the bedding. I set a trash can, new bedding, and food, all at my feet.
I have an extra tub for the rats. I fill it, change the rats over, add feed, and slide the drawer in.
I do have to feed the rats every other day or so-but thats only 6 tubs, and I top off the waters about halfway through the week. I Just use a large water pitcher for that, with a bucket to catch my spills, so I can pour fast and careless.


I have just over 60 snakes at last count, but also recently started to sell extras to a buddy.
He has close to 200 snakes, so I actually might need to increase my colony- if I choose to be his sole supplier.
I kill off most of the rat babies at 20-55 grams or so(2-4 weeks old), rather than having to raise mice for much longer to get that size. That allows me to use most of the mice as hoppers or smaller, and not use extra "grow-out" tubs. Not sure if I am actually better off that way or not, but it what I do for now. I'm still working on getting some of them to take rats, as well. Rats are nice for gopher snakes and such, but I'm also using them for my corns, and trying to get my kings on them.
I do raise a few rats to medium size for a couple of my snakes and several of my buddy's snakes.

[krystalirelan@southslope.]

[quote=Lori P;37807]Omg! I got up this morning and on my way to the coffee pot, peeked in as always into the room with the mouse tank... and could not figure out what I was seeing... turned out to be my &%#^ cat Evie INSIDE THE MOUSE TANK... lol, she had knocked the lid off and was sitting in the middle of the darn tank watching them!!! Just... watching them. They were in their little house, both of them staring back at her.

when we raised mice a similar thing happened except my dog got the lid off and bit off the head of our male. Unfortunatlly my daughter found it.

[CrazyHedgehog]

Omg! I got up this morning and on my way to the coffee pot, peeked in as always into the room with the mouse tank... and could not figure out what I was seeing... turned out to be my &%#^ cat Evie INSIDE THE MOUSE TANK... lol, she had knocked the lid off and was sitting in the middle of the darn tank watching them!!! Just... watching them. They were in their little house, both of them staring back at her.




that brings really funny pictures to mind! laughed loads when I read that!:)

[Rook]

jeeze I am not used to the whole "feeder" rodent set up lol. I breed Gerbils for Rook, but my Gerbils are also pets, and I am breeding the Gerbils for colour and temperment, and simpley skimming a bunch of babies off of each litter for Rook lol. we are only the begining stages right now though, eventually we will start taking entire litters but right now we are carefully selecting what we want. pretty quickly though we will have more pairs going and we will be able to take more pinkies from the litters lol

[Lori P]

So, today I had to make another trip around the world to get live pinks for Des. However, they started dieing off on their own within an hour of being here. I left them all together in her tank tho, and get this: she just came out and ate one of the DEAD ones. Even tho one is still alive and moving.

So WHAT THE HECK??!! She can eat a recently deceased pink but not a previously frozen one?

Do they make these rules up on a daily basis? Just to drive me NUTS??? LOL!!!!! :)

[Lori P]

Yup, she ate all of them. What a BRAT. Her eyes are blue, too, so I'm impressed she came out and ate.

[adamanteus]

That's great news, Lori. Maybe she'll start taking frozen/thawed now.

[Lori P]

But she LEFT the f/t one!!!!!:mad: LOL!!!

[anji1971]

I think we had a little discussion on a thread somewhere about how they're just like little kids........eat something one day, won't touch it the next. And I'm positive that it's done purely to drive you nuts.:D

[Stefan-A]

My plan to raise my own rodents seems more and more likely, although I'm now considering gerbils instead of mice. Can they be housed as couples, or do you have to have several females per male, like with mice?

[Lori P]

My mommy mouse should be due any day now. Today I moved her to a small tank by herself, with the little box she's already built a nest in. I hope that was a good plan?? I was thinking she would feel more secure by herself than with the male running around, plus, it'll be much easier for me to see when she's had them.

Stefan, I think gerbils can be housed together; I think they're like mice & rats, content in families. I *think* only hamsters are solitary but don't quote me.

[Stefan-A]

I meant, should they be housed as couples or groups?

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

i thought the daddy was supposed to be around so the mommy could have breaks to get water and stuf or its just too hard by themselves

[Sid]

Stefan, here's you a link to their care and breeding.
Gerbil Handbook (http://www.agsgerbils.org/Gerbil_Care_Handbook/index.php)

[Stefan-A]

Thanks, Sid. :)

Found the answers pretty quickly. Thanks again.

[Sid]

Thanks, Sid. :)

Found the answers pretty quickly. Thanks again.
Any time, Stefan. Glad to help when I can.

[CrazyHedgehog]

My mommy mouse should be due any day now. Today I moved her to a small tank by herself, with the little box she's already built a nest in. I hope that was a good plan?? .

Hi lori, mice are quite sociable and they will all muck in to help the mom. If there are more female mice, they will likely help surrogate as well, best leaving her with the others.

Also, if its a first time mom thing quite often they can eat their own young, sometimes its because you looked or interrfered but mostly, its because they panic, don't know what they are doing and just eat them... its another reason to leave them with others! it provides mouse moral support!!:D

Good luck!

[Lori P]

Inge, I just have one female and one male. Uh oh, perhaps I should move her back with her man then. I was going on the pet store's advice, which, as we all know, is generally poo poo... thanks so much!!

[CrazyHedgehog]

if nothings happened yet then yes! don't worry too much, they sort themselves out!

[Lori P]

(Tapping foot impatiently) She still hasn't had them. I have the only mice in North America who aren't breeding. (Sigh...)

[KITKAT]

(Tapping foot impatiently) She still hasn't had them. I have the only mice in North America who aren't breeding. (Sigh...)

My adult female is permanently pregnant right now too. I think the short days increase the gestation by a few days. And another thing that increases gestation is if the mother is still nursing the last litter.:rolleyes:

[Lori P]

I'm actually thinking mine may have been a bit young... I noticed this weekend that the male's-- er-- um, cojones are much bigger than when I got him. So maybe she was still a bit young to get preggers.

Desdemona was out hunting this weekend and I did not have time to make the trek out to find live pinkies. So I warmed up a f/t and dangled it in her cage... she SLAMMED it-- and then dropped it. BRAT, BRAT, BRAT. I'm going to get her live pinks tomorrow. Grumble.