Identify this one

[Stefan-A]

I usually write long stories, but this time I'll try to keep it short. Here's another snake I need help identifying.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/idthis.jpg

What would you call this one? Eastern, red-sided or mixed? Looks to me like it's a little bit of everything. Front half, red markings. Rear half, white markings. Lateral stripe within the 2nd and 3rd scale rows.

ps. Feel free to interpret this also as another whine about how hard it is to find pure snakes over here.

[Sid]

Stafan,

I may be off base, but I don't see the stripping above the lip. This may be a Ribbon Snake rather than a Garter.:confused:

Sid

[Stefan-A]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/idthistoo.jpg

Imo it doesn't have any of the typical ribbon snake features.
Heavily built and short tail (well, it's female), the lateral stripe is wrong, no white spot in front of the eye, no white labials etc.

[GarterGuy]

Well this definitely is not a ribbon snake (eastern or western), it's missing the dark stripe between the lateral stripe and the caudal scales that the eastern ribbon has and doesn't have the two fused spots on the top of the head like the western ribbons do. Also it looks a lot more robust then most ribbons and it's head also looks more "blocky" then a ribbon snake.
Now the hard part.....it's definitely a T.sirtalis ssp., but which one???? I'd be willing to bet it's a T.s.parietalis. I've seen others that have the red really reduced on them, but like you said....the white further back does remind me of an Eastern (T.s.sirtalis)...so possilby could be an intergrade. They do cross over in the wild, so it's possible. Besides that, not knowing where it came from (if it was a wild caught animal) or it's parents.....it's really hard to tell.

[Stefan-A]

Well, is it any help at all if I tell you that in the proper light, it has a single, barely noticable row of black dots (just slightly darker than the background) directly above the lateral stripe between the red/white markings? Like this one (http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/Animals/Reptiles_and_Amphibians/Thamnophis_sirtalis_P4070055.jpg), only my snake is darker.

Don't know why it would, though. Just grasping at straws here.:p I'd be willing to bet that it's an "artificial intergrade" and definitely CB.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I'm leaning towards t s parietalis....red sided garter. The more northerly ones in Canada have small red spots right above the side stripe, or none at all. Some easterns have red on them, but not quite red spots like that...if there was no red I'd say eastern, but its possible its an intergrade...do you have any info from the breeder or original owner???

[Stefan-A]

None. Like I said, it's from a store, but I know that they got it from a wholesaler or importer. Can't remember exactly which it was, but they ordered it (that's how tiny the reptile market is, you have to order mixed-breed garters ffs) while I was there. It's definitely imported, it would have turned up on the biggest Finnish herp forum if it had been born locally.

But I guess I could try to do some detective work and see what I can find.


I bet there aren't any parietalis that have naturally white markings. Am I wrong?

[ssssnakeluvr]

they come in a variety of colors..... I had a wild caught female red sided garter from Kansas that had this baby.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/no_red_red.jpg

[Stefan-A]

Ok then. :D

ps. Both of my snakes are refusing to eat and have been very active all night (yes, it's 5:30 AM local time), every night for the last few days. Time to turn off the heat for a few weeks, or what?

Umm.. don't they intergrade in Kansas, or am I totaly off again?

[ssssnakeluvr]

intergrades can happen anywhere, but they aren't common. I have only found red siders in the area the mother came from. If they don't eat for several weeks youcan cool them down and hibernate them for a month, unless you are planning to breed, then put them down for 3 months.

[Faunaofthenorth]

I'm about 99% sure that it is an Eastern garter (thamnophis sirtalis). The reason i know this, is that i am from northern MN, and i have one exactly the same, except way bigger, and i have caught countless numbers of the same ones. It might be T. s. parietalis, but i doubt it, cause i have a true T. s. parietalis, that i caught last summer and they aren't even supposed to be in the north eastern half of MN.

[Stefan-A]

Sorry for bumping this old thread, but maybe some of our newer members would like to give a shot at identifying this same one.


http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/fem271006.jpg

As far as I can tell, it's pretty much identical to the male I have (you can see a bit of him in the background) as far as the markings are concerned, except that the red is reduced. Both have 19 scale rows, 7 supralabials etc., although that's of lesser importance.

[adamanteus]

I would say parietalis, but all the conflicting arguments have knocked my confidence!

James.

[Stefan-A]

Well that's 3 votes for parietalis and one "might be parietalis, but I doubt it".

Personally, I'm abstaining. I know what I would like it to be, so I'm less than objective.

[adamanteus]

Stefan,
I just looked at that picture full size in the gallery....that's a really good photo!
James.

[ssssnakeluvr]

well, i'm still leaning towards parietalis. there are a lot of easterns that have orange and red, but i've seen lots of pics of red siders from Canada and a large number of them have reduced amounts of red. nice pics too!!!!

[Stefan-A]

Thanks for the compliments, but I've got better pictures than that in my archives. ;)