hibernating snakes

[garterking]

I live in Ontario Canada. My 2 garters slowed their eating down at the end of Sept. Now they've pretty much stopped eating for the past 2 weeks. 1 is 30" long and been thru a couple winters, the other is at most 12" and may be her first winter. My question is, even thou their tank is fairly warm, do you think they know it's time for a rest? And how long can they safely go without food when I move them to a cooler place? Any help you can offer is appreciated.

[Beautifylgirl]

I too have this concern something similar is going on with mine and I'm not sure if I should be concerned or not.... here's the link.

http://www.thamnophis.com/husbandry/205-when-should-i-concerned.html#post1545

Brittany

ps.. sorry if I'm hijacking the thread but I too am a little concerned.

[Cazador]

Garterking,
If yours have just slowed their eating down, you have the choice of whether you want to brumate them or not. My personal preference is not to brumate the young-of-the-year because I enjoy having them around, and I like them to continue growing throughout the winter.

They would be reacting to the changing seasons if there have been sudden changes in the barometric pressure, if you have them in a room that gets natural light, and/or if their temp has dropped. If you don't want to brumate them, you can increase their photoperiod to about 16 hours of light & 8 hours of dark. Then keep the temperature up in the 80s until they either snap out of it or refuse to eat for another two weeks. If they've gone a month without food, you should throw in the towel. Remember to give them 10 days to 2 weeks after their last meal before putting them down, though.

The red-sides garters in your own backyard (Narcisse Snake Dens) have been studied very thoroughly. They often go for 8 months without food at low temperature. They grow and reproduce just fine, so don't worry too much unless you start to notice a weight drop (wrinkly appearance, empty appearance when breathing, backbone/ribs noticeable).

[garterking]

Just looking to refresh this.

Both of these are easterns. The small 1 is eating pretty much regularly again, and the bigger 1 is eating 1-2 worms every 10-14 days (he used to eat 3 worms, twice a week, he was too fussy to switch to pinks) and stays on the cooler side of the tank. The smaller girl spends a little more time in the water dish lately. (don't see any mites)

Where I live is cold. I'm having a hard time keeping the tank really warm. I moved them to a 10 gallon, have a heat lamp and undertank heater on 1 side, put a towel over the cool side so less warm air escapes and it's about 70 according to the thermometer.

So here's my questions........ Short of turning up the heat in my house 10 degrees (very costly), what is the best way to heat these guys up, and, Should I just throw in the towel a put the bigger guy into brumation? I don't want to keep him in limbo if he's really looking for a nap.

I know you guys will come thru for me, you always do. Thanks in advance for the help.
Mike

[Cazador]

Temperature:
As far as the entire tank being too cool, you can try moving your incandescent light more toward the center of the pen. You should be able to find a good temperature range by doing this.

If that doesn't do the trick, you can add a small heating mat to the cool side of the tank, and move the light back to one end. Then you'd have mat and light on one side of the tank and just the small mat on the other side. Unplug the second mat during the summer. Be sure to move a reliable thermometer around in the pen, so you know what temperature your snakes experience at both ends.

Mites:
Since they're in the same cage, you can make sure about the mites by wiping both of them down with a damp, white paper towel. If either have mites, you'll be able to see them crawling around on the paper towel. You can also temporarily replace the water bowl with a white kitchen bowl. That makes the mites easier to see when they're floating on the water or crawling on the sides.

Brumation & behavior:
Personally, I'd put the male into brumation and continue to let the young female grow and mature over the winter without brumation. She may simply be in the water bowl because your air is becoming less humid as the temperature drops. As the temperature drops, the air is capable of holding less total moisture (even at the same relative humidity). That's why it feels more muggy at 90F and 75% relative humidity than it does at 60F and 75% relative humidity. Smaller snakes are more prone to drying out (larger surface area to volume ratio and higher mass specific metabolic rate associated with growth), so that explains why she would prefer the water bowl while he doesn't. Finally, I wouldn't want to exclude the possibility of her soaking prior to an upcoming shed. Do her scales look dull?

[garterking]

She doesn't look like she's going to shed, eyes look normal and she's been soaking off and on for almost 2 weeks. Did the poper towel trick, didn't see anything crawling, so I'll assume..................

One thing I noticed is while the larger male was wiggling his way thru the paper towel, it made popping sounds. Like someone cracking their knuckles almost, only quieter. I wasn't squeezing that hard, just enough that he had to work a little to get thru the paper towel.

I'll let you know how I make out.

One other small concern..........and I'm not really sure I really even heard this correctly. I "might" have heard a small pop when he was breathing. It was just the once, And he didn't do it again, and I'm not even sure I heard it right. Should I be concerned?? Not sure I want to hibernate him if he's week and might be getting sick.
Thanks again.

[Cazador]

Way before the eyes cloud over, the scales become dull. That is an earlier sign of an impending shed, but it sounds like the humidity factor may be more important in your case.

Okay. I'm venturing into the realm of heresay, and I don't know if this is a reliable indicator or not, but...

I've heard that the "popping" sound you describe is gas in their stomach/GI tract caused by bacterial action. It's true that lower temperatures impair the immune system, which makes snakes more vulnerable to infections, outbreaks, and infestations. It's also true that bacteria excrete water and gas during cellular respiration, but whether or not they're responsible for the noise you heard is questionable. Can anyone shed more light on this phenomenon or its significance?

Regardless of the cause, I'd raise the temperature as a precautionary measure with a higher wattage light bulb and a rheostat. Shoot for the mid-to-upper 80s in the hottest part of the terrarium during the hottest part of the day. Best,
Rick

[boeh]

One thing I noticed is while the larger male was wiggling his way thru the paper towel, it made popping sounds. Like someone cracking their knuckles almost, only quieter. I wasn't squeezing that hard, just enough that he had to work a little to get thru the paper towel.

I'll let you know how I make out.

One other small concern..........and I'm not really sure I really even heard this correctly. I "might" have heard a small pop when he was breathing. It was just the once, And he didn't do it again, and I'm not even sure I heard it right. Should I be concerned?? Not sure I want to hibernate him if he's week and might be getting sick.
Thanks again.


Hi garterking

It could be that your snake have a pneumonia. Snakes with pneumonia have that popping sound, and it either sounds like cracking the knuckles. I wouldn't hibernate this snake till you know what it is. Otherwise it could be dangerous. I think the best thing is to ask a vet if he could make a swab from the mouth. As far as I know is this a possibility to find out if the snake has a pneumonia or not. Maybe there are other possibilities? He probably either can diagnose it by having a look at the snake. I hope it isn't a pneumonia. Let us hear what it was. Good luck!

Regards,
Cyrill