Kingsnake keepers-- a little help please???

[Lori P]

Ok guys-- I am a sucker, I am a sucker, and I know it... LOL!!! But I have always been sooooo enamored by the pueblan milksnakes... so I brought this one home, she is a female apricot and I lover her coloring and markings!!!

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Kingsnakes_11_4_07_001.jpg

But here's where I need help... I talked a lot to the nice man who had these snakes, and he told me when I decided on the above that he'd throw this one in for $5 extra because she is not eating yet. She is a coastal california king, and she is 6 weeks old. I figured, I could give her as good of a chance as anyone, right? Especially with all of you to help!!!! :-) So please please send thoughts on getting her to feed... he told me to start by "braining" (ugh) a pinkie for a few tries before force feeding...

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Kingsnakes_11_4_07_002.jpg

Thanks in advance for any help!!!

[Lori P]

Incidentally, she is very active and alert.

[adamanteus]

'Braining' is good. Also you could try lacerating the pinky's nose a little, that works sometimes. If she's not too nervous, you could try pressing the pinky against the tip of her nose/mouth, sometimes that can cause them to open up and start swallowing. The trick is not to make it a trauma, for her or for yourself!

Anyway Lori.... It's a Cali King.... of course it will eat!:rolleyes:

[Lori P]

Well, that's what he said too... he said they almost always start eating. But she is soooo much smaller than the others were. I should give her a couple of days to settle before offering her something, right?

How long can a baby go before starting to eat???? I mean-- 6 weeks already!!!!

[adamanteus]

Well, 6 weeks is a while, but she still looks okay so far. Patience and perseverance is the order of the day. You may have to force-feed to start her off, but you'll be fine. See what happens over this next week, just give her plenty of opportunities to hide, so she settles more quickly.

[Lori P]

Thanks James. She has a hide in her little tank, but right now she is busy busy busy!!! I hope that's a good sign. I need to go read everything I can now on king snakes. I kind of did that thing that I HATE when others do it: I jumped in without doing my homework ahead of time!! I never do that... but omg, they were just CALLING to me.... :-)

[adamanteus]

There is another trick you could try, Lori. Wash a pinky, dry it, then thoroughly rub it all over one of your Garters!

[Lori P]

Ohhhh... (brain is going) So now when the garters are bad I can threaten them by waving the king snake in front of them... lol!!! :-)

[KITKAT]

Check your local herp show or your pet expo next time it is in town, or look online. What you are looking for is African Pygmy mice... specifically, you want a pinkie or two.

Scent them with garter and try feeding them live. You will be amazed at their small size, and sometimes this helps... but they are durned hard to find!

[Sid]

Ohhhh... (brain is going) So now when the garters are bad I can threaten them by waving the king snake in front of them... lol!!! :-)
Lori, I believe that James' point was, a king snake will readily eat another snake when it won't it anything else. It's their nature. And....congrat's on both purchases. They were a real bargin ( even if not Garters:D).

[Lori P]

Sid, yeah, I got it. :-) And thanks!!! I'm really, really happy with them. Hey, at least they are in the garter family.... :-)

[Lori P]

OOOPS!!!!!!!!!

Ok... well... I bought this plastic critter keeper tank today as a temporary home for these babies, right? And it has a plastic devider that you can put down the middle. Seemed like a great idea! So they are in their own sides...

So then, with the kingsnake being so active, I decided to offer a thawed chopped pinky just to see if maybe miraculously she would eat...

And when I just walked back in to check on her, this is what I see:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Pueblan_eating_day_one_001.jpg


The milksnake has gotten into the kingsnake's side and is eating her pinky!!!!!!


http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Pueblan_eating_day_one_003.jpg

SO, I am now preparing the kingsnake her own home!!!!!!!! Eeeek... live and learn, live and learn!!!! I really don't just post these things to point out my ignorance... I post them in the hopes that others learn from my mistakes!!!!!

But hey-- the good news is-- the milksnake has no eating issues at this point!!! lol

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

Beatiful snakes u got there lori at my local show there were so many snakes i wanted i met this one guy tho who i knew (but didnt know he was into snakes) and hes going to sell me a few albino tangerine milks for a low price in spring(he also convinced my mom to let me get them which is un heard of) so tell me how u like the milk

[RZL36]

Got this from the kingsnake forums from a reputable guy:

As most of you know sometimes we have kingsnake hatchlings that refuse to eat. Most of the time they get over this problem in a month or so, other times it takes significantly longer. After trying the old standby of cooling a non-feeding hatchling for 2-4 weeks they still won't eat. They're thin and must eat or they will die.

That's where force feeding comes into play. I choose rat tails because they are much more substantial than a mouse tail but smaller hatchlings will need smaller tails.

I start by going to the freezer to to pick a meal

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506003L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506003L.jpg)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506004L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506004L.jpg)

The tail is cut from the frozen rat on an angle to facilitate feeding.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506005L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506005L.jpg)

I thaw the tail in warm water for a few minutes.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506006L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506006L.jpg)

The now thawed tail.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506007.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506007.jpg)

The non-feeder "Bad Snake" he says in a stern tone of voice.
Notice the sexing probe to the right of the box.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506008L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506008L.jpg)

[Lori P]

I LOOOVE the milk so far... kind of skittish, but, once she feels safe she is active and all over the tank. And I really, really love her coloring.

Hey Reed... think we could wait a week to ship your snakes or would that put you into a bind??? Let me know... just kind of having to be nice to Jamie right now since I ran his brand new truck into a tree yesterday... and 4 snakes in one week might just be pushing it a bit. LOL If not, no worries, he'll get over it!!!!

[RZL36]

Pick up the snake and firmly secure the rear of the head between your thumb and index finger.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506009L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506009L.jpg)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506010L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506010L.jpg)

Pick up the probe and gently slide the ball tip into one corner and slide through until the jaws are slightly separated. Don't damage the teeth the probe just needs to slid through. Use the hand holding the snake to also hold the probe. Now with your free hand slide the cut end of the tail into the snakes mouth. Once the jaws are around the tail extract the probe and slowly push the tail down the snakes throat.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506011L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506011L.jpg)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506012L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506012L.jpg)

If you stop at this point some snakes will work their jaws along and will swallow the meal. If they do great. Others like this one will regurge unless its shoved further along.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506014L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506014L.jpg)

Keep pushing GENTLY until at this point even the most difficult cases will usually finish the job.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506016L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506016L.jpg)



At least thats how I do it. I'll force feed twice a week and place the snake in a deli cup with a f/t pinkie overnight 3 nights a week until they eat.
-----

[Lori P]

WOW... Rich, thank you!!!!!!!! Awesome info and pics!!!!!!

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

haha ya ill ship whenevr u want

I LOOOVE the milk so far... kind of skittish, but, once she feels safe she is active and all over the tank. And I really, really love her coloring.

Hey Reed... think we could wait a week to ship your snakes or would that put you into a bind??? Let me know... just kind of having to be nice to Jamie right now since I ran his brand new truck into a tree yesterday... and 4 snakes in one week might just be pushing it a bit. LOL If not, no worries, he'll get over it!!!!

[Snaky]

What Rich posted is very good way.

I also have found out that they prefer other pinkies, instead of mice pinkies. Here they love Mastomys natalensis:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d46/gerritdepostduif/care%20sheets/veeltepelmannen2.jpg (http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d46/gerritdepostduif/care%20sheets/veeltepelmannen2.jpg)
They also prefer rats above mice here, so you can try part of a rat.

Make sure they can not reach each other, they are cannibalistic and accidents happen...

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

also about the milks lori it takes about a year for them to fully calm down

[Lori P]

Thanks Reed. :-) And thanks for holding Curious and Reed for me for a few more days!!!! :-)

[drache]

very lovely snakes you got yourself there, Lori
make sure the king has sufficient heat and hiding spots
ask the people you got him from how they fed him - did they leave leave something in his cage? did they wave it in front of his nose?
also make sure that he's otherwise healthy
find out when he last shed
get as much info about him as you can

[sschind]

Nice snakes Lori but I' have one problem.

Unless that is a very bad picture, that does not look like an apricot Pueblan to me. Apricots have orange highlights and an overall orangish look to the white bands and and orange cast to the red areas.

213

this is not a good picture and the animal is getting ready to shed but I think you can see the orange tint to the white areas. It is possible that the photograph you posted doesn't show the true colors of the snake and if so I retract my statement. I do notice that the area that would be white in an exceptional normal specimen does have sort of a yellowish tinge this does not make it an apricot however. Just a low quality normal I have two of them that look a lot more yellow than that and they are considered normals, at least by me. Anyway, that is my take on Pueblans. If anyone cares to post different pictures or to enlighten me on the characteristics of apricots I welcome the information.

[sschind]

OK, a little clarification is needed. I made the post about the apricot Pueblan and I stand by that. The part that I edited (completely removed actually) was a little rant about selling non feeders but I failed to see in the picture the N/E which I assume to mean non eating so my rant was uncalled for. The editing had nothing to do with the Apricot Pueblan and the picture I was referring to in my reason for editing was the picture of the kingsnake in the deli.

Sorry if this causes any confusion, and my explanation will probably be even more confusing.

[MoJo]

I agree about the Pueblan. It is a beautiful snake but I am not sure it should be called an apricot. Here is a photo of my new 07 Apricot Pueblan in shed! He is not the best specimen but I love his oranges.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Carmello.jpg

As to the kingsnake, I would leave her be for a few days and then try a live pinky. She might like the movement. If not I think the garter scenting should work well.

Good Luck

Joanna

[Lori P]

Nice snakes Lori but I' have one problem.

Unless that is a very bad picture, that does not look like an apricot Pueblan to me. Apricots have orange highlights and an overall orangish look to the white bands and and orange cast to the red areas.

Thanks for the info! I *think* what I may have is kind of a low quality apricot, lol, and I only say this because the man who had them--Brant was his name-- had a couple of apricots he was showing me, who had much more orangy color to them. However, for some reason, I kept going back and picking up this one, who was off to the side. I just liked her! :-) And she is def. a lot less orangy. I will try to get more pics once she settles in. But if it turns out she's not an apricot at all, I'm happy with her-- she is not for breeding. :-)

[Lori P]

OK, a little clarification is needed. I made the post about the apricot Pueblan and I stand by that. The part that I edited (completely removed actually) was a little rant about selling non feeders but I failed to see in the picture the N/E which I assume to mean non eating so my rant was uncalled for. The editing had nothing to do with the Apricot Pueblan and the picture I was referring to in my reason for editing was the picture of the kingsnake in the deli.

Sorry if this causes any confusion, and my explanation will probably be even more confusing.

No confusion... Brant was VERY open about the fact that she was not feeding. And he gave me a lot of tips to try, it's just that... well, he told me to "brain" a live pinky and try that for a while. Guys, I can't do it!!!!!!! If that's what it takes to get her feeding, I will HAVE to find someone else to do it... I don't want the snake to die, but omg, the thought of stabbing a baby mouse in the brain makes me sick and teary. He said you don't kill the baby, you stick it and let it squirm... I just can't, what if that causes horrid pain to that baby?????

There were several people at the expo who had tubs of "non-feeders" for very cheap prices. If they are all as open as Brant, and offering lots of tips (he also told me to call/email him anytime for advice) do you think it's still a bad idea to sell them? I'm just curious as to your opinion, so rant away. :-) :-)

[Lori P]

And Joanna, LOVELY snake!!!!!!!!!!!! His others were def. that coloring-- I just picked the light one because she was calling to me.... :-)

[Lori P]

OH--- MY---- HEAVENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok-- I am calm-- I am breathing--

So I go first thing to check the babies this morning and the king is busy climbing all over...

And the milk is nowhere to be seen. No problem, she has lots of hides. So I start looking... and looking... and looking. I start taking out hides. I start digging thru the substrate. I start PANICKING. I took EVERYTHING out of the tank. She is GONE!!!!!

Ok, I admit, I kind of started sniveling and calling for Jamie. He comes over and re-looks through everything. I am raving on about what a dumba$$ I am, I lost the baby, she's going to die, how could I be SO irresponsible...

And Jamie suddenly says, calm down, look, I found her.

So... in the tank I have this:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Pueblan_in_hide_001.jpg

And HERE is where Jamie finds her!!!! Can you spot her?? I sure would have never!!!!!!!!

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Pueblan_in_hide_002.jpg

So all is well... can someone please remind me WHY I love snakes??????

[MoJo]

Congrats on finding her! Thanks for the nice words on Carmello.

I have never heard of braining a live piny - I think most people would find that cruel too. Has he already tried live? If not I still think that would be the first thing I would try. If she is roaming that much I would think she is hungry and looking for food!

Jo

[anji1971]

Lori, sorry I'm I little slow, but congrats on the beautiful new babies!! I read this thread last night, but my little brain was just way too tired to reply to anything at the time!! And it seems like in that short period of time you've already had a few adventures with them!! Best wishes for the feeding problem, unfortunately I don't have any advice for you, as I'm a total dunce when it comes to these kinds of snakes!:o But if anyone can do it, it's you, Lori!!

[sschind]

First off, I can see a very light tinge of orange in the picture of the snake hiding so it is possible it is a low grade apricot. Sometimes I think that's what our minds are attracted to. Something different. If all he had on the table were nicely colored apricots maybe you picked this one out because it was different. I'm just curious, was it priced the same as the others?

As far as feeding I personally will never sell a snake, for a pet, that has not eaten. My standard practice for babies is to feed them once a week until they have fed 4 consecutive times, and then they are ready to go. If they feed 3 times and then skip one I start over. If that snake eats another 3 times and skips I will sell it because at that point I feel, that with 6 meals out of 8 is established. I start out offering frozen If they don't eat frozen after two or three tries I will try live. I have had snakes eat three times then just stop and never eat again. As for those that never feed. After about 6 to 8 weeks I will try to force feed it. Mouse tails for tiny babies, small pinkies for bigger ones. If they won't go for that, the small babies get fed to the non feeding kingsnakes (which always got them started) some of them were sold a food for other snakes (so I guess yes I do technically sell non feeding snakes but not as intentional pets)

Most of the people who buy these cheap non feeders are those least qualified. No offense to you Lori but you were not prepared to take on the snake. "Not prepared" in the sense that you did not plan on buying a non feeder so you could not possibly have been prepared. Not "not prepared" as in not capable. He did give you information but they make it sound so easy, "oh just try this that should work" if it were that easy they would have tried it, and if it would have worked the snake would not be a non feeder and would not be discounted. Most non feeders I see for sale are pretty much beyond hope. That is because the seller has tried everything they can think of to get it to eat including hoping that it will start to eat just before it starves to death. Nothing has worked and they want to at least get a few bucks to pay for the wasted pinkies.

My personal opinion is that it simply isn't worth it. Even if you stress that it is not feeding, my experience with people is that most of them will hold it against you anyway if the snake dies or at the very least these people tell other people that you sold them a non feeder and they don't always tell them the entire story, now I have people thinking I am selling non feeding snakes. I know this because people bring me snakes all the time that aren't feeding and all they ever say is "I bought it from some guy at the swap" They never tell me if it was bought as a non feeder and many times it is very obvious that the snake hasn't eaten.

I must make a distinction between non feeders and problem feeders. Sometimes snakes will just be problem feeders. They will only eat once out of three tries, or they will only eat live, or they will only eat little white bulldog puppies (oops, sorry, I remembered that from a tall tales book about the hodag) sometimes they will only eat a certain prey item. These snakes can be fed it just takes a bit of perseverance. Some of you may recall the free flame garter I was including in a lot several months ago. It would not eat on its own but once you got a rosie started it would finish it. More like assist feeding rather than force feeding. I pointed this out and I feel that this was acceptable.

Sorry for the long post. In short, I guess if the guy is totally up front about it and you want to take the chance it is up to you. Personally I wouldn't want to take the chance as a seller to have anyone for any reason think I was selling non feeding snakes.

[drache]

I have never heard of braining a live piny - I think most people would find that cruel too. Has he already tried live? If not I still think that would be the first thing I would try. If she is roaming that much I would think she is hungry and looking for food!

Jo

kings don't only roam when they're hungry
true, most of them just like laying around
I do have a cal king though who's a roamer at times and an escape artist (perhaps the two go together)
he does seem to enjoy the stimulation of coming out of his enclosure and hanging out with humans
he's well-fed and if I fed him every time he roams, he might just eat, but he'd end up obese (one solution to the houdini issue)

also
I don't think it's all that difficult to make a king believe the mouse is alive when it isn't - all it takes is dexterity with tweezers and some acting talent
for that a f/t is fine

and
I'm glad you found the snake
whew!

[garterking]

No confusion... Brant was VERY open about the fact that she was not feeding. And he gave me a lot of tips to try, it's just that... well, he told me to "brain" a live pinky and try that for a while. Guys, I can't do it!!!!!!! If that's what it takes to get her feeding, I will HAVE to find someone else to do it... I don't want the snake to die, but omg, the thought of stabbing a baby mouse in the brain makes me sick and teary. He said you don't kill the baby, you stick it and let it squirm... I just can't, what if that causes horrid pain to that baby?????

Lori, Try braining a f/t pinky first if you haven't already. That might get you past that situation, or a live pink. I had a 50/50 Cali king that would only eat live pinks at first. I did eventually switch to f/t, but it took some time and patience. In my opinion, you're at a stage that with a baby going this long, you might have to force. I hate the thought of it as it stresses the snake out (and me too) but after his first meal, hopefully it would just come natural after. Good luck, and keep us posted.

[brandon0133]

i had to force feed my little baby corn,,she/he was not eating at all,,,i had to use a thumb nail and open her mouth and pushed the little pinkie in,,,had to get it half way or more down her throat and then she ate it,,,

[Lori P]

THE KING SNAKE ATE A MOUSE TAIL!!!!:D LOL I have been trying to mostly just let her alone but three times I had cut open pinky heads and offered them.. and she acts she doesn't even recognize food. I jiggled one around the other night and she actually struck at it once but then ran... and nothing else convinced her to even look at it.

She has gotten to the point where she is just constantly in motion, all over her tank, exploring non-stop and I can reach in and hold my hand in there without her running for a hide. So tonight I thought... well... let me just try to put a mouse tail in her mouth and see what happens.

So Jamie held her and I opened her mouth a wee bit and slipped in the tip of the tail, which she promptly spit out. So we waited a bit, just held her and let her crawl around, and then tried again. This time I pushed it in a wee bit further... and then she started to pull it in herself!!!!!:D We put her back in her tank and she swallowed the whole thing!!!!!!! This is the first thing she's ever eaten in her whole life-- what a concept!!!!!

SO... I'm not sure if what we did could really be called force feeding... it was kind of more like, assistance feeding-- ?? But did we teach her to eat or just teach her that things put in her mouth can be swallowed??

And really-- how much nutrtion can a mouse tail have, anyway??

I was so excited I forgot to take pics till the end-- they aren't the greatest but can you see her getting it down???

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Kingsnake_EATING_11_8_07_001.jpg
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Kingsnake_EATING_11_8_07_closeup.jpg
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Kingsnake_EATING_11_8_07_2_crop.jpg

I am SOOOO excited for her!!!!!!! :-)

[Lulu Bennett]

awww lori well done i think next time it will be a bit easier but will continuing to get easier as time goes on lol

[anji1971]

Congrats!! I knew you could do it Lori!
GO l'il kingsnake, GO!!!!!!:D:D:D

[Bay_area]

Kings will eat anything...some take longer than others. Here is another idea, came upon this when I was out looking for snakes one night:p


Let me know how many rattlers you want me to send you...ROTFL
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c306/norcalsnakemaster/IMG_0155.jpg

[drache]

are they just hanging out together?
or is the king in the process of constricting the rattler?
that's an amazing picture

[Lori P]

Eeek!!!!! I read that kings are immune to rattlesnake venom. That is quite an impressive pic Jerry!!! Er--- I think I'll pass on your offer!! :eek:

[Lulu Bennett]

Jerry, I will take one off your hands :D

[Bay_area]

are they just hanging out together?
or is the king in the process of constricting the rattler?
that's an amazing picture

The rattlesnake was hit by a car. I saw it in the road on the first pass. I turned around to do another pass, when I came up to where it was, the kingsnake had its coils around it. I blocked the road so no other cars would hit the kingsnake. Once it started swallowing the rattler, I moved it off the road so it could finish its meal.
I decided from that night on when I saw a DOR(dead on road) that I would pull the animal off the pavement. That way it would be less of a chance that a second snake would be hit.

[anji1971]

Wow, you were definitely in the right place at the right time! Great photo opportunity, and a chance to save a snake from being squished beyond belief!!
Good job!!:D

[MoJo]

Lori,

Big congrats on getting your new baby to eat! I hope it all goes well from here on in and she will start taking pinks now.


Jerry,

That photo is awesome. Thanks for sharing.


Joanna

[RZL36]

If the snake had a mouse tail, try tying two or three together. Just keep trying every few days. If worse comes to worse, force-feed, but the snake is probably gonna hate you for a little bit.

It is getting colder too. One of my kings is off feed right now. She does it at the same time every year though, seemingly regardless or whatever heating scheme I can come with.

[adamanteus]

Great news Lori! It should be easier from here on in. Next time, just before the tail disappears and the mouth closes, try 'posting' a second piece in behind the first. The swallowing process will just continue until both are swallowed.

[RZL36]

Oh, and try rattlesnakes. :D

[RZL36]

Yeah, James is right one that one. That should work fo'shaw.

[Lori P]

Rich!! LOL No rattlesnakes!!! :-)

James, I was thinking of posting a thin sliver of pinky behind the tail... whatcha think?

[adamanteus]

Great idea, Lori. Won't need to be too thin, maybe half, lengthways.

[drache]

congrats Lori
that's great news
if you cut a pinkie in half, maybe you can just try giving him the side with the tail

[adamanteus]

maybe you can just try giving him the side with the tail

Why the tail side particularly, Rhea?:confused:

[Lori P]

congrats Lori
that's great news
if you cut a pinkie in half, maybe you can just try giving him the side with the tail

Rhea, thank you for reminding me to go slow and caaalllllmmmm with the snake... I didn't realize how much tension I was holding onto when previously dealing with her. Once I relaxed, she relaxed, and presto, she ate. It really is like dealing with the horses in that they feel every bit of tension you have, even if you don't know you have it!!

[drache]

Why the tail side particularly, Rhea?:confused:
because the snake had tail before and that way Lori wouldn't have to post

[adamanteus]

because the snake had tail before and that way Lori wouldn't have to post

But that would mean swallowing the pinky backwards, not so easy for the snake that way.

[Lori P]

I plan to slice it long ways and go face first, because the nose is thin, you know, and would fit in better... plus the brain would be exposed and that seems to be important from all I read and heard from you guys on braining...

So, ewww, do brains have a stong odor??? OMG, do I have a STINKY BRAIN?????:eek: :D

[drache]

But that would mean swallowing the pinky backwards, not so easy for the snake that way.

you can always trim off the legs
one of my kings will only eat mice rear end first
I think he's afraid of the nose end

[Lori P]

It's been a week the tail-- should I try again? She has shown no interest in the sliced pinkies, which does not surprise me, but I did want to give her a chance a couple of days to eat on her own. Or should I wait? She is still very active and is calm when being held.

[RZL36]

It really could be the internal clock. I'm pretty sure this snake would not survive hibernation in the wild, but it's not in the wild so it should be fine.

One of my kings has slowed considerably (the same species as you) and one is really picking it up. They are at the same temp too. Sometimes snakes are that way.

If the mouse tails are working, try this. Tie the tail around a pink. Leave a little bit of the tail exposed so that it can get about a few centimeters down the throat before being forced to swallow a pink.

If possible you might want to keep weight records for the winter, but in the summer I promise, that thing will not refuse a meal.

[Lori P]

Rich, should I lower her temps? Actually brumate her, or just give her more room temps? She basks a lot under the heat lamp right now which is about 90 degrees.

[RZL36]

If she's not eating, I would say keep her warm. I'm guessing that you have no plans to brumate her and with the way she is eating, I would not.

Keep her warm, but not too warm. 90 is probably a little too much really. If you can get it to 85, you might have better luck. I would not lower it anymore than 75 if she's not eating.

Have you tried any more mouse tails? She took that easily right?

[Lori P]

No, we had to push the mouse tail until it was into her throat, then she swallowed it. But she did not voluntarily take it. And she has not offered to eat any more on her own.

Oops, will raise the heat lamp higher then. The cool side of her tank stays at 75, but the warm spot has been between 85 and 90, and she spends a lot of time there.

[RZL36]

Your temps are pretty okay. Just cool a little bit. Try pushing the pinkie into her throat. Some kings will literally never eat until coaxed. Must be why the clutches are so big.

Good Luck and keep us posted

[Charlet_2007]

Pick up the snake and firmly secure the rear of the head between your thumb and index finger.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506009L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506009L.jpg)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506010L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506010L.jpg)

Pick up the probe and gently slide the ball tip into one corner and slide through until the jaws are slightly separated. Don't damage the teeth the probe just needs to slid through. Use the hand holding the snake to also hold the probe. Now with your free hand slide the cut end of the tail into the snakes mouth. Once the jaws are around the tail extract the probe and slowly push the tail down the snakes throat.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506011L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506011L.jpg)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506012L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506012L.jpg)

If you stop at this point some snakes will work their jaws along and will swallow the meal. If they do great. Others like this one will regurge unless its shoved further along.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506014L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506014L.jpg)

Keep pushing GENTLY until at this point even the most difficult cases will usually finish the job.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/th_GA-07f022506016L.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y265/Ecosense/Captive%20kingsnakes/GA-07f022506016L.jpg)



At least thats how I do it. I'll force feed twice a week and place the snake in a deli cup with a f/t pinkie overnight 3 nights a week until they eat.
-----

what is that beautiful snake in the pic? and where can i get me one of those?

[RZL36]

I'm not sure, but I am guessing it a breed of lampropeltis getula. The head is the indicator. Looks like a brooksi or floridana. Maybe a cross. I really don't know.

[Roy Munson]

I think that Joanna's suggestions are right on: you need to offer that Cali a tiny, live pink. I had a Mexican black king that would not accept f/t no matter how much I "danced" it around with forceps or how much privacy I gave her.

If you try one more f/t attempt, place the thawed pink and the snake in the smallest container that can accommodate both the pink and the snake. Do this around sunset. Leave the container in a no-traffic, dark area and don't even peek at it until morning.

Another f/t trick is to wash the pink in mild soap and rinse thoroughly before offering. A lot of snakes don't like the rodent-urine smell that mother mice impart on their babies.

Then there's anole-scenting. Euthanize an anole, freeze it, and thaw its head under hot water until you can pry the mouth open. Swish an f/t pink's head around in the anole's mouth. Then scrape some skin off the anole and paste it to the pink's head with water. Corn and king babies seem to really like anole saliva. You can use the same anole over and over and over.

But I think live may do the trick. :)
Good luck.

[Loren]

Hi Lori, I thought I'd share my cal king hatchling experience(only 1 experience). I hatched 11 cal kings one year, and let them eat when they were willing. Offered live, fresh killed, and frozen/thawed pinkies( at different times) about every week or two. Many ate soon, but a few went between 2 and 3 months to take the first meal. I only lost 1, but it was a major runt(like 4 " shorter than the others), and was actually one that started eating sooner than most of them. I believe it had internal problems of some sort as it ate great. The rest went on to be fine.
Even after the first meal, many of them did not start eating regularly for quite some time. This time of year, their instincts are telling them its time to be brumating, so you have that fighting you as well.
I would say that a hot spot around the high 80's is probably good. put a hide box halfway over the heat(or 2 small ones, 1 off, 1 on heat) and leave him alone in a low traffic area of the house. There will plenty of time to hold him after he gets eating.:)
Dont be afraid to leave a pinky in there for a couple days- even a dead pink can be left for a while,(close to a full night and day) just toss it before it gets nasty. Try offering at diffent times of the day- specifically early evening.
A side note on hide boxes- I have found that snakes feel more secure in a smaller hidebox that is just tall enough to squeeze under, and has just a big enough opening to enter/exit. They like to literally feel the hide around them. I also prefer to keep hatchlings in shoebox sized cages till they are well started.
Think about how we often find them in the wild. Not usually under nice big open objects, but crammed tight under a rock. Some of my snakes will only eat if they are under their hidebox at the time, and I put the mouse into the entrance and leave without any disturbance(like my Diablo range garter).
This(small,short hide boxes) has helped with the feeding respose of some of my snakes, including one of my cal kings.I just use cut up beer or soda boxes, cause I'm cheap). Hope I'm not just repeating what someone else said, I havent read this whole thread yet.
That snake in the force feeding pics reminds me of some kings I have seen from the south eastern u.s., but that side of the country is not my specialty.

[Roy Munson]

what is that beautiful snake in the pic? and where can i get me one of those?The king in the force-feeding pics looks like what they used to call a "goini" king. Now you see them called Apalachicola kings. Sometimes they're called blotched kings. The patternless ones may be a distinct subspecies, but the patterned ones are usually thought to be intergrades between Eastern kings and the patternless subspecies.

[Loren]

The king in the force-feeding pics looks like what they used to call a "goini" king. Now you see them called Apalachicola kings. Sometimes they're called blotched kings. The patternless ones may be a distinct subspecies, but the patterned ones are usually thought to be intergrades between Eastern kings and the patternless subspecies.
Roy, that sounds exactly like what I was thinking of, I just couldnt remember the species names off the top of my head. Think I saw one on another forum recently.

[RZL36]

Roy Munson is single handedly (well not really, but pun intended), giving some good info. I agree with Loren on the handling thing. Keep the stress to a bare minimum.

[Lori P]

Thanks to everyone again for the great tips!! This is an interesting snake... one thing about her is, she is not at all shy, which is why I felt comfortable handling her-- she is always out and about in the tank, she will crawl right into your hand, and I was of the thinking that if I have to hold her to force feed at some point, I wanted her used to the handling. She is rarely in her hides, which is interesting too. And here's something from this morning-- I was walking by her tank and ran my finger along the top. She was stretched out along the front of the tank, like usual, and-- she suddenly lunged at my finger moving along the top!!!! So, quick like a bunny, I thawed a pinky and dangled it... and she was SUPER interested, tracked it, tongue going, right up until she got close enough to touch it--- and then she lost interest. But hey, that was pretty good, right?? Showing that kind of interest??

I wish I'd have taken the time to scent it with one of the garters. And I will try to find a live pinky this weekend-- I just have no idea where!

[garterking]

Thanks to everyone again for the great tips!! This is an interesting snake... one thing about her is, she is not at all shy, which is why I felt comfortable handling her-- she is always out and about in the tank, she will crawl right into your hand, and I was of the thinking that if I have to hold her to force feed at some point, I wanted her used to the handling. She is rarely in her hides, which is interesting too. And here's something from this morning-- I was walking by her tank and ran my finger along the top. She was stretched out along the front of the tank, like usual, and-- she suddenly lunged at my finger moving along the top!!!! So, quick like a bunny, I thawed a pinky and dangled it... and she was SUPER interested, tracked it, tongue going, right up until she got close enough to touch it--- and then she lost interest. But hey, that was pretty good, right?? Showing that kind of interest??

I wish I'd have taken the time to scent it with one of the garters. And I will try to find a live pinky this weekend-- I just have no idea where!

Lori,
That is good news that she is interested, and by the sounds of things, if she's out hunting, she's hungry. To me the problem sounds like she just doesn't know what to do with food that's in front of her. I think you might have to force her again. Or at least get her mouth open with the pinkie inside, and hopefully she'll catch on and do the rest. Keep us updated.

[Loren]

Hi Lori, sounds like she was interested till she smelled it. Sometimes dead just dont cut it. I would definitely try a live pinky. Get the smallest one they have. If she dont take it, leave it in there overnight.

[RZL36]

If the live pink doesn't work, just force-feed two pinks. Eventually it will eat, just make sure that it gets something in it every two weeks.

I really hope the live pink works though. From what I've read, some kings-literally-never eat after birth unless forced.

[Lori P]

SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

She ate a live pinky-- no, no, she ATTACKED a live pinky before I could even BLINK!!!!!!

Unbelievable-- I've never seen anything move so fast in my life!!! There was no smelling, no hesitation, the poor little thing had barely left my fingers before it was just GONE!!!!!

I can't say I feel great... I'm not over the live pinky thing... the little guys are so darn... well... cute and alive! They have their heads up and they're scooting around and whimpering--- aaaaarrrrrrgh, the two that are left want their momma. :(:( This is very hard for me. I tried to buy the momma and the babies, so I could put any left back with momma, but they wouldn't sell her. :( I know you guys are over this kind of thing, and you must think I'm a nut, but this is very hard for me.

But I know, I know, I chose to get the snake. But.... I was hoping she'd eat f/t... and hopefully soon she will-- right???? RIGHT?????

Anyway... I am very very glad that Desdemona FINALLY ate something on her own and I hope we can move on from here. Oh, I also bought a little grass lizard to try that if the pinkies didn't work, so now I think I own a grass lizard. lol I have NO idea how to care for him, I'm calling the store back now. Geeeeeez what a day!!!!

[RZL36]

Great success and good deal Lori.

Good call Loren.

[Lori P]

Yes, Loren, and everyone-- thanks for talking me thru this all. Certainly couldn't have done it without you all!!!! Thanks for being patient with all my questions, and for offering up all your experience and advice. You all rock!!!!!

[Loren]

Great news Lori. I would figure on feeding it live for 2 or 3 feedings, then try frozen thawed, but you could try a frozen thawed next meal if you want. Another option is to feed her a live pink again in a week or 2, and if she takes it, follow it (as soon as the first one is in her belly)with a second one, this time frozen thawed, while she is in "feeding mode". Make sure you get the smallest pinks you can so you dont overload her if she takes them both. Most kings will switch fairly easy after a few meals, but not all. Make sure anything frozen thawed is up to body temp, or even alittle warmer- not just thawed.

[adamanteus]

Well done, Lori. It is hard the first time you have to feed live prey, but you do harden to it in time. Great news that Desdemona ate foluntarily though.:)

[Lori P]

OMG. I just walked back by her tank and she is eating a second one and I am BAWLING. I can NOT DO LIVE. I feel like such a total ****. Geeeeeez my heart is not hard enough for this, her sorry no good five dollar butt had BETTER eat frozen next time or I swear I'll feed her to Fluffy.... :(:(:(

[Lori P]

Of course, if I feed her to Fluffy, then I'm still feeding live... lol. Well, you know what I mean. Fluffy wouldn't eat her anyway.

[Loren]

Sounds like you better just try thawed next time.:)
Sometimes, presentation is everything. First, I would wait till she's good and hungry. Give her a chance to sniff it and hopefully nail it, if she doesnt take it, but will put her head in the air alittle, then gently and slowly rub the pinks head under her chin(close to her mouth) in little circles, and be very patient. I dont know why, but this works with some of my picky feeders. Have to be very gentle and slow.
My rosy boa started out that way. After doing this for about 2 minutes, she would finally tilt her head and slowly start to eat. It was kinda neat, cause I went to a freinds house who also had a new rosy that wouldnt eat, and I asked if I could try. He walked out to get his mail, and when he came back I had it eating. So I got to act like I was a real pro:D

[Lori P]

Loren, I just came in from feeding the livestock and she has eaten the third and last one!! Good heavens-- now don't tell me I just over fed her!! Is that possible? I did snap a quick pic without really looking, will download it later. Wow, she turned into a sudden piggy snake today!!

Thanks for the ideas on feeding thawed... I am a little calmer than my last post, lol, so what I'll do is try thawed next time, but if she won't eat, then I'll get another live one and try to sneak in the thawed with it. Maybe that'll get her going. Hopefully that'll get her going on thawed!!!!!!

[Loren]

I wouldnt be too worried about overfeeding- but dont handle her for a few days. Worst case would be regurgitation, in which case you would just need to wait a couple weeks to feed her again, but she will probably hold them down.

[Loren]

Here's a pic I took that I thought you might like- from my "archives".
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/kings_hatching.JPG

[anji1971]

Wow, step away for a couple hours and look what I miss!!!!!
Congrats, Lori! Even though it was traumatic for you, I'm sure Desdemona (hope I got that right) is very thankful for the fabulous meal. Well done!:)

[Lori P]

Aww, Loren, they are adorable!!!! All three at the same time-- too cool!!! What is that substrate I always see in with egg pics??

Ok, I'm not looking too closely but here are the pics of her finishing off the 3rd one...

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Desdemona_eating_first_time_1.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Desdemona_eating_first_time_2.jpg


Thanks Anji for the kind words... you notice all the guys are missing, they're all at home shaking their heads and going, "Girls... why did we let girls on this forum???" LOL!!!!!

[Stefan-A]

Aww, Loren, they are adorable!!!! All three at the same time-- too cool!!! What is that substrate I always see in with egg pics??
Vermiculite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermiculite)

[Loren]

Yes its vermiculite.

"you notice all the guys are missing, they're all at home shaking their heads and going, "Girls... why did we let girls on this forum???" LOL!!!!!"

Just to clarify- I am a guy. (I know my name could go either way, but I dont:))
Loren

[RZL36]

Just to clarify- I am a guy. (I know my name could go either way, but I dont:))

Lol.

Lori, three pinks is really good. I totally agree with the others in saying keep the hands off the snake for a few days, but I think it got over the hump. Should be smooth sailing from here.

[MoJo]

Congratulations! I am thrilled she ate for you. With a belly full of pinks I bet she won't be cruising the tank for a while! It's great that she is eating and I am sure that she will switch to FT in no time.

Joanna

[drache]

congrats
that is great news
even if she's not eating what you'd loke her to - at least she's eating
and I have no doubt that it won't be that hard to switch her to f/t

[Lori P]

Just to clarify- I am a guy. (I know my name could go either way, but I dont:))
Loren

OH!!! Loren-- so sorry-- LOL-- hard to tell on emails, you know?? :o Yes, of course you're a guy, your emails are big, strong and manly... LOLOL :)

Thanks again everyone for all the help!!! Desdemona is lying in her hide this morning postitively groaning and begging for a Tums... :D

[anji1971]

I'm surprised she's not plastered all over the tank after exploding...........:D

[Roy Munson]

That's great news, Lori! I really hope you can get her switched to f/t, but you should be prepared for the very real possibility that it may take quite some time and quite a few live feedings. I don't say this to be a jerk, or to discourage you-- I'm just trying to spare you some disappointment if the conversion to f/t is slow in happening.

A rodent-eating snake that demands live isn't a defective snake. It can be a pain in the butt, but it's not what I would call a "problem feeder". And don't be too sentimental about the pinks. A lot of cute baby animals grow up to be McNuggets, or bacon, or steak. A kingsnake's gotta eat too. ;)

[Lori P]

Dean, ok, I had a talk with me. LOL I committed to this snake, so therefore I am committed to feeding her what she will eat. I just didn't expect to need to BE committed after feeding her live pinks... lol!!!!!

And I'm ok with baby animals growing up to be my meal; I raise my own meat animals. But when I eat my animals, they are killed VERY quickly and painlessly. THAT'S what gets me about this; the few times I peeked in there, those babies were struggling and gasping and THAT is what tears me up-- suffering, not death. Do you know what I mean?? And of course, I do know that nature is cruel... I just don't know why it has to be.

But I will do whatever Desdemona needs me to do for her. I just hope her sorry little black and white butt appreciates my suffering for her. LOL

[Lori P]

Bummed!!!! :(

I just walked by Desdemona's cage and she caught my eye as she was at the front, doing some strange contortions. As I watched her, she twisted around, mouth working, and then started crawling back to her hide, rubbing her face on the substrate, the hide, and the side of the tank. After she went into the hide, I looked closer around the tank and saw what I thought was poop... until I went to remove it and found she had regurged two of the pinkies. (And let me just say... pinkies 5 days later... UGH!!!!) She ate them last Saturday.

So what's up??? She has had no stress all week... nothing has changed... the only time I even went near her tank was Sunday to refill her water and yesterday morning when I took a pic when she was moving around. The temps have remained the same.

It's possible she regurged the third one, too, but I don't want to disturb her right now to look... I don't see it but it could be in one of the hides or under the aspen. I'll check in a little bit.

Help... this can't be good...:(

[adamanteus]

I wouldn't panic, Lori. There could be several reasons; too large a meal after a long fast, a sudden fright, or temperatures that are too low. You could check out the last option, but as I say, I wouldn't worry too much just yet. Try feeding her a smaller meal in a few day's time.

[Lori P]

Thanks James. The temps go down to the mid 70's at night in her tank. During the day, the cool part stays at about 75 and the basking spot is about 80-82 (I did lower it from 85-90). That's ok, right?

I will peek around for the last pinky. Maybe three was just too much. If the one stayed down, I'll feel better...

I would really really like to not experience 5 day old half digested baby mice again. That was uniquely unpleasant. lol

[adamanteus]

I would really really like to not experience 5 day old half digested baby mice again.

I know! It's awful!:eek:
If I were you I think i might be tempted to bump the hot-spot temperature back up, Lori, as long as Desdemona can get away to a cooler area if she wants to.

[Loren]

Hi Lori, I would guess it was just alittle too much for her little system to handle at once. I would wait a good week to 10 days before trying to feed her again. Regurging upsets their stomach/throat a bit, so she needs a little time off. Then just give one at a time. I wouldnt worry too much.
Would hurt to bump up to 85 degrees or so basking temp.

[Lori P]

THANK YOU guys!!!!!!! She is very mobile this morning, cruising the tank. The third one appears to have stayed down, so that's good. I am slowly warming her basking spot back up to 85. I'll wait till next weekend to offer her one pinky. Poor girl!! She's really having a rough start of it!!

Thanks so much for the help!! :-)

[CrazyHedgehog]

I have one snake who I have to regulate its feeding away from the others, for some reason, she eats everything very fast, then brings half or more back up a few days later, and as you say, it really is not nice then! Although she still seems hungary, I only feed her what I think she should be eating in one go, its trial and error, but I think I have it about right now.

[Snaky]

It's great that she ate and that the last one stayed down :)

Here's an article about regurgitation:
http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Regurgitation
But I'd say that it was probably a to big meal after she had not eaten for a long time... Good that you checked the temperature and like said, offer her 1 pinky and you can make the time a little shorter between feedings. If it goes without problems, you can go for 2 pinkies. I hope she'll be a good eater from now on and that she'll take thawed pinkies.

[Lori P]

Ok everyone! Yesterday was 10 days since she'd regurged. She's been very active all week and she even shed!!! Her first shed with me!!! And it was perfect. So anyway, yesterday I bought one small live pinkie and she absolutely DEVOURED it in a snap.

SO... everyone cross your fingers, toes, and boobies (that's for the ladies) that she keeps it down and we are well on our way to a full feeding snake!!!!! :D

[adamanteus]

Great news, Lori! Hopefully she'll be fine now. Well done.:)

[Loren]

Sounds great- I'd try 1 live pink a week- then after a few- try a frozen/thawed.
- Loren

[MoJo]

Congrats! I'm thrilled she is eating for you.

Joanna

[anji1971]

Great news Lori!!!
uuhhhh..........boobies are a little hard to keep crossed.:D:D:D

[tikichick]

Wow, you've been through a lot!! You can thwack/thump a pinkie on the head to knock it out before feeding it to the snake. I do only frozen thawed and it's the only way I can stomach it. I love all critters, so it took a lot for me to get to the point where I was even comfortable with the idea of feeding f/t. It gets easier after a few weeks - then it's absolutely fascinating. My ball python takes small mice, so I haven't had to do pinkies. I hear they're gross f/t cause they're so small and kinda like jello when they thaw, ew. Anyway, kudos to you!! You're doing great!!

[Lori P]

I hear you... the f/t was hard for me too, and since my first snake was an unexpected rescue (and see where that lands ya, LOL!!), I had to dive right into it. I researched different companies and how they raise and kill their rodents because I had visions of millions of suffering little mice being mass murdered in some horrible way. But found that the companies gas them which is almost instant, so that was reassuring.

The pinkies... I don't know if Desdemona would take an unconscious live pinkie yet... and don't think I could do the head whacking, altho, that would probably be kinder than the way Des goes about it! I think right now the motion is important to her. But hopefully soon she can transition to f/t. We'll see...

Yeah, thawed pinkies are a little... rubbery. LOL After a while they don't bug you tho. I can even slice up a thawed pink now. Woooo hoooo go Lori!! LOL

How old is your ball python?

[drache]

congrats
that's great news

[tikichick]

He's less than a year old. I do a little mouse dance when I feed him which helps, lol. I know they have limited hearing, but it has a little sing song that goes with it, "I'm a little mouse and I want you to eat me." Lol. I'll have to video it sometime. I basically jiggle it around in the tongs, holding it by the tail or back foot until he strikes. Sometimes, I "scurry" it along the newspaper. But he always grabs it during the dance.

We have a little routine. First I take his hide and log out, then I put a sheet of newspaper in the tank, then comes the mouse. I think he's starting to associate the newspaper with feeding now. I'm paranoid about him ingesting substrate and too, if feeding gets messy, it's all on the paper.

This is Fiji...

http://www.lakehousemedia.com/hidden/herps/fiji/fiji_s600x450.jpg

[adamanteus]

Laura, I really need to see your 'Mouse Dance'!!:D

[Snaky]

Laura, I really need to see your 'Mouse Dance'!!:D
Second that:D

[Lori P]

Laura, I think it would be hilariousNO I MEAN educational for us all to see the mouse dance. We would laughNO I MEAN learn a lot from the song, too. We are always looking for a good giggleNO I MEAN enlightening experience. :D

[Lori P]

Laura, my young ball Squiggles is the same way about feeding as Fiji. I have to entice her to take her mouse, also by dangling and spinning it. She won't strike if it's sliding around the ground either-- it has to be dangling over her head. Here's one of my fav pics of her eating, she is sooo relaxed here...

Hangin' on my branch, munchin' a mouse... :D

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Squiggles_eating_10_07_resize.jpg

[drache]

one of my kings gets into moods where she needs the mouse to twitch a little and "try to disappear behind something"
she's also the one who'll nail my hand because it moves

[Loren]

Well, since we are all sharing pics of our balls...
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Ball_python_pic.jpg
He's about 40" now. He will take frozen/thawed or live, mice or rats. He hits food harder and faster than any of my snakes.

[tikichick]

Yall crack me up! :D Ok, I shall record the now infamous mouse dance next time he eats. He had 2 mice last week, so it'll probably be the end of this week sometime. It's gonna be hard not to laugh through the song, though, lol!

LMAO, "pics of our balls" :p He's beautiful, Loren! About how old is 40"?

I love the name "Squiggles"! That's hilarious! Awesome pic! I'd love to see the whole tank sometime.

I wonder why they like food from above? Maybe they lurk in holes and grab what passes over the entrance?

P.S. I'm rapidly falling in love with all of you. Yall are nuts! :D

[Lori P]

My husband named her Squiggles. Our other ball is Fluffy. :-) And after that, he gets to name no more snakes. LOL

Fluffy eats with no enticement needed; she just darts out and grabs as soon as I put her food in her cage. She eats mice and chicks but I can't get her to touch a rat. I wonder about quail... since she likes chicks. Anyone have experience with quail??

I'll post a pic when I get home of the whole tank.

This is a WONDERFUL group isn't it?!!!!

[adamanteus]

Anyone have experience with quail??

Well, there was this one time..... but I don't want to talk about it.;)

[tikichick]

They like gerbils since that's their native "mouse"... but, I've heard to use that only as a last resort for picky eaters. Once they've had gerbil, it's supposed to be difficult to get them back on mice.

[adamanteus]

Once they've had gerbil, it's supposed to be difficult to get them back on mice.

Yeah, I heard that too, but every one I've had were happy with mice, so they never got a gerbil!:rolleyes: So I don't know.:D

[Lori P]

Well, there was this one time..... but I don't want to talk about it.;)

ROFL!!!! You are a sick, sick puppy!!!! :D

[Loren]

LMAO, "pics of our balls" :p He's beautiful, Loren! About how old is 40"?


Hi tikichick,
40" is 40 inches, not an age measurement:)
According to my records, he was given to me 11-20-03, and was 22 inches long then, and supposedly 16 months old. I have not fed him very heavily for the most part (started out 1 meal every 2 weeks, now more often weekly), so he grows slow, although I recently upped his meals from 1 xl mouse ( 45 grams) to 1 small/medium rat (65- 100 grams, usually), so he has started to grow faster.

[tikichick]

Lol, I guess I didn't ask my question very well, but you answered it :) The better question would have been, how old is he? Lol.

I started out with iguanas, and snout to vent and snout to tail lengths are often the only way to guess the critter's age.

[Lori P]

Hey... what happened to us getting to see the mouse song & dance???

Good news on Desdemona, the kingsnake... she ate two pinkies yesterday morning!! Bad news for me, one of them SQUEAKED when she nailed it and sent me fleeing the house in guilt and shame... ugh... next week we try one live and one f/t!!!!!! She's killing me here!!!!!

Also, Squiggles (ball) ate one small rat, and then a regular mouse!!!! Fluffy still won't touch the rats. It doesn't really matter, I was just thinking in the future it may be more economical to feed a rat or 2 as opposed to 4 mice.

And Miriam (puget) ate a pinky part for the first time in 3 weeks... she was starting to worry me... hopefully her little fast is over!!

[drache]

that sounds like things are going well for your little snake tribe
congrats

[tikichick]

YAY! Glad to hear they're eating! ew eW EW on the squeaking :eek:

[anji1971]

And here I am, thinking I should try mine on live, just to add some drama!:D......squeak, squeak!!...

Just teasing, Lori, and congrats on the good eating!

[drache]

I missed the squeaking part - yuck!
when I got those few live pinkies at the expo, I couldn't wait for them to get eaten, because they were squeaking
it totally freaked me out when the snakes they were intended for didn't want them
I was almost panicky because i just didn't want them around
I am totally not set up for taking care of mice - especially ones that look like they still need mom's milk - and every time one of them squeaked, it felt like I needed to take care of them in some way until they got eaten
I don't envy you, Lori
I was pretty relieved that at least I didn't have to get live ones again

[Lori P]

I had to resurrect this thread for the latest news:

Desdemona ATE A F/T HOPPER!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D For the first time ever-- last night-- I did rub the warmed hopper on a live mouse (which really seemed to irritate the mouse) and then Jamie bobbed it around in her tank-- and she nailed it!!!!!

Wooooo hoooooo.... she ate f/t, she ate f/t!!!!!!! Wow, what an interesting and long path she's taken to get to this point!!!!!

I'm so proud of her... (sniff)... my baby has grown up... :rolleyes: :D

[anji1971]

Way to go Desdemona!!
That's great news, Lori. She really has come a long way in your care. Quite an amazing little girl!
Maybe you should hold a graduation ceremony for her??:D

[Loren]

I did rub the warmed hopper on a live mouse (which really seemed to irritate the mouse)

Well yeah, wouldnt you be irritated if we rubbed you on a dead guy? !:D:D:D

Just kidding, mice can handle it, after all, they do eat each other when they die.
Great job Lori.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

i think we need to see an update pic :)

[Lori P]

Well, Jamie snapped this pic after she grabbed the f/t hopper, but it doesn't show much... but he was so proud that he was the one to get her to eat it. :) She dragged it up under the goat skull to eat it.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Des_eating_ft.jpg

I'll have to get some pics next time she's out. :) Oh, right, I'll get pics at her graduation party! Everyone send gifts!!!!! :p:D

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

gifts... a baggie of frozen salmon?! :D

[Stefan-A]

They like gerbils since that's their native "mouse"... but, I've heard to use that only as a last resort for picky eaters. Once they've had gerbil, it's supposed to be difficult to get them back on mice.
Isn't the comon pet gerbil native to Mongolia? The natal (aka. soft-furred) rat is also a native prey species.

[drache]

congrats Lori
you must feel so liberated
good job Desdemona

[Lori P]

Ok, I know you all are sick of hearing about this, LOL, but Des took two f/t hoppers this weekend all on her own--- I just put them in the tank, and she came and ate totally on her own, without us dangling or moving them!!!!! I think she's a "real" kingsnake now!!!!! :-) :-)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

awwwwwwe!!!! she really is a real kingsnake now... only real kingsnakes eat anything and everything in sight :D

[anji1971]

I don't ever get sick of hearing good news about people's snakes!!:)
Way to go Desdemona! I can't believe how fast she's come along since you got her, Lori!

[drache]

what a grown-up girl she's become

[Lori P]

Hey guys, I have a question about Desdemona. She has been very, very active the last 2 weeks but has not eaten. She cruises her tank from morning till night, just busy busy busy... but is not interested in eating. Any ideas?? Could she be cruising for a mate, or is she too young for hormones to kick in? (She should be a year old in September)

It's just odd for her, because she's always been pretty sedate, only coming out when she was hungry (twice a week like clockwork). Thanks for any thoughts... it just seems she is searching for something and I'm not able to give it to her.

[Lori P]

Here's some updated pics... searching, searching. She's gotten to be such a beautiful girl!!

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Des_new_hide_005_resize.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Des_new_hide_004.jpg

[el lobo]

Good work, Lori! I like that pueblan!

[Garter_Gertie]

Woman... (shaking head). Your husband is a saint. Does he have any brothers?

The things you do and the predicaments you get yourself into!

[Loren]

Pretty snake Lori- I have one that looks just like her. On your question, I think males are more likely to be searching for a mate than females, but I am not sure.
Are you sure that she is a she? Also, just to be safe, I would look her over real close for mites.
Other things that comes to mind- any chance she was recently located close to another type of animal that she could be sensing/smelling, that could be making her nervous?
I would say she is just more active due to your house probably being warmer at this time of year, but that doesnt explain lack of eating.

She looks real healthy at a glance.

Keep us updated.

[Lori P]

Loren, thanks... well, gee... now that you mention it, I did just move her into that tank about (embarrassed cough) three weeks ago. D'oh. I wonder... that bedding in there is a shredded paper, something new I'm trying... any reason that would be bothering her I wonder?? She's been burrowing in it like normal... here is a close up:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/a_new_bedding.jpg

It's called Eco Bedding. Maybe I should switch back to carefresh for her and see what she thinks. But I mean, she spends as much time on the bottom of the tank as on the climbs... just constantly moving. Not rubbing on anything, just strolling around...

Mites... I don't see any but... let me look her over more closely.

Gertie, lol, Jamie didn't even have any pets when I met him... silly man, we had to fix that right quick!!! :-)

[anji1971]

Lori, she's looking great!:)
She's probably just a bit restless from the changes in her surroundings, but I can tell you that Deejay periodically gets like that for no apparent reason, just goes on a busy spree. It's most likely nothing to worry about.

[Loren]

I dont know of any reason that bedding would be a problem. I would look her over real close, and give it a little more time. Just my opinion though. :)

[Lori P]

*Sigh*... she's probably just tired of mice now. She let me get all comfortable and relaxed about her, and now she's going to torment me for a while... LOL!!! Thanks Loren.

[jitami]

Lori, I finally got the chance to read this entire thread. What a little sweety Desdemona is. Hope I got her name right, it's been a long thread :) Good for you for getting her going. There's a ton of great info in this thread and a wonderful, happy ending :) Gotta love it! Has she settled down any in the last few days?

The first time I went looking for f/t pinkies they were out of stock, but the oh-so-helpful sales girl quickly informed me, "I think we have live, want me to check?" "um... ok...." That was the absolute longest drive home ever. The little thing was in a paper bag and I could hear it moving around and making little squeaky, whimpering noises :( Then I had to hold the little dear, rub fish all over it, and thank GOD Sly ate it right away. I had nothing else to feed it to and had no idea what I would do if he didn't eat it! This was over 6 years ago and I still remember the little toe nail sounds on the paper bag and the little baby noises. I think it's that mommy instinct in us that makes us want to care for the little ones.... sigh... thankfully we moved on to f/t with the next feeding and haven't looked back! :)