Going out with a bang...Long Winded Post

[rancor_]

It seems that my posts bring the wrong kind of conflict. I will try to keep this post agreeable enough to stay up. When I see misinformation, I post on it. When I see an opportunity to share some knowledge, I do so... and when there is a chance to spark a discussion, I am always up to reading someone elses views. However, I have a fundamental difficulty at times to blandly write a plain post. I write how I speak. Knowledge doesnt always come wrapped in a nice package, neither does humor.;) I usually try to include both, although for a plethora of reasons, written sarcasm and innuendo doesnt always shine through on the net.
Its great to see a forum where enthusiasm reigns, across borders, oceans and languages. And there also seems to be a tight knit group within a much larger community of thamnophis and related keepers. There is also, no doubt, a vast wealth of knowledgeable, experienced people here.
However, at times not everything can be taken for face value (referring to most of my posts that seem to not get a warm reception). Asking questions about something some one wrote shouldnt be taken as bickering, they should be taken as a chance to further the topic and clarify what was written. There is nothing wrong with asking for references or studies to back up a claim, but opinions are still opinions even if they go against what is accepted. I also realize I'm extremely guilty of coming across as "aggressive" in a couple of my posts here.
This is getting long, and there is still a few things that I was asked to share in other threads so I'll get to that::D
I was under the impression my view of not releasing into the wild was the common one shared amongst herpers. I stand corrected. So heres some background ; Releasing Captive Reptiles and Amphibians (http://www.anapsid.org/release.html)
This page alone is a great read, here is a little quote.
California desert tortoises are under threat of extinction is because those populations not disturbed by habitat destruction are being decimated by a viral infection spread into the wild populations by sick former captives who were released into the wild...
Websites arent always worth the ones and zeros theyre written on, but this is HIGHLY documented as one prime example. The Desert Tortoise (DesertUSA) (http://www.desertusa.com/june96/tortoiserescue.html)
Currently, the tortoises' main survival danger is raven predation on hatchlings and the upper respiratory disease (http://www.desertusa.com/june96/tortoiserescue.html/l) syndrome (URDS) which is believed to have been introduced into the wild population in the early 1980's. According to the California Department of Fish and Game guidelines, it is unlawful to release a tortoise back into the wild after any length in captivity. This regulation is to prevent the spread of the disease.
One more site - mainly repeating with other experts : USGS Press Release (http://online.wr.usgs.gov/ocw/htmlmail/20060810nr.html)
I realize that this isnt apples to apples, but there just arent many studies done, ( that I can find), regarding the basics of garters...forget about particulars such as this. Id love to read some though if anyone has any links....
All of this parallels all reptiles and amphibians... And of course works the other way for feeding wild caught prey. Ive stated before, that without someone - - somewhere catching and breeding an animal, my cages would all be empty and my dogs bowl would never empty because he wouldnt be here either!
It wasnt my true goal to ruffle feathers, only to open discussion in my own, Unique way. If anyone posts on this thread, I will gladly respond and further a conversation, but I wont be posting in the open forum anymore. (only lurking).

A flame can spark Enlightenment
Rancor_
p.s Hope the stars aligned for all!

[RZL36]

I don't think it needs to be like that.

I like heated discussion, and I agree with you in regards to reptiles prone to disease, but in about 99% of the cases supplementing a threatened population is a good move. Usually debate rages on here, its just the personal attacks that were I problem (though I am far from any official word on your self imposed exodus) and I don't think you are solely to blame. You probably shouldn't go into new places "both guns blazing," regardless of what you know, but you ain't bothering me none.

[Stefan-A]

Come on, there's no point in going out with or without a bang here. :)

I agree with everything you say in your opening post, asking questions shouldn't be viewed as bickering and it's perfectly reasonable to ask for references. Personally, I try to remember to add a disclaimer of sorts when I'm less than sure and I hope people will take the hint and not accept what I say without thinking and acknowledge that I'm aware that I haven't provided a credible source. Neither does knowledge always come in a nice package, but in my experience it doesn't hurt to deliver it with a smile. I'm not saying anybody should be sucking up to the people they are trying to inform, but being arrogant (which I'm definitely not accusing anybody of here), even when it's justified, is always counterproductive.

When has knowledge ever been appreciated? A sad fact is that people are more concerned with how a message is delivered, than with its significance to the discussion. It has the status of a party trick for most people and is right up there with doing a crappy Christopher Walken impression. They're not going to change anytime soon either, so instead of banging your head against the wall, you might as well adapt. :p

[zooplan]

Although I had no time yet to follow your links, I can see that this thread starts with a good statement.
I use English only for this forum and few other contacts and have always to use an online dictionary on my second screen, but some posts of your and some replies also seemed like bickering ( a new word to me:)) to me.
This thread seems to show your really postive aims and gives a substantial
contribution to the question:
How should we appaise the "catch and release strategy" to the conservation of wild populations?

[adamanteus]

Rancor, there's really no need to cease your contribution to this forum. As others have already stated, debate and discussion are welcomed here. It is the personal attacks and insults that offend people, not the fact that your opinions and beliefs differ from theirs. You have been more than willing to strongly criticize other members for the content of their posts, so when such criticism is turned on you it should really come as no surprise.

Your posts, whether I or others agree with them or not, are a valuable contribution to this forum. You are clearly an intelligent guy, I'm sure you could articulate your point in the written word without the need to resort to insults.

As you point out, there is a wealth of experience and expertise here, but there are also many novices with only a little knowledge on the subject. We have schoolboys starting out with their first snake, we have PhD graduates with boundless knowledge, we have experienced field workers who have been dealing with reptiles in the wild for decades. This forum provides a 'level playing field' for all, we have no ranking system here, but are all equal and treat each other with mutual respect. Any member, regardless of their experience can feel comfortable to post and discuss an issue without the fear of ridicule or attack.

This is what makes Thamnophis.com special. We're not just a clique for the clever people.

So please, stick around and contribute some more. Feel free to argue, debate and disagree. All I ask is that you 'be nice'.:)

[rancor_]

Rancor, there's really no need to cease your contribution to this forum. As others have already stated, debate and discussion are welcomed here. It is the personal attacks and insults that offend people, not the fact that your opinions and beliefs differ from theirs. You have been more than willing to strongly criticize other members for the content of their posts, so when such criticism is turned on you it should really come as no surprise.

Your posts, whether I or others agree with them or not, are a valuable contribution to this forum. You are clearly an intelligent guy, I'm sure you could articulate your point in the written word without the need to resort to insults.

As you point out, there is a wealth of experience and expertise here, but there are also many novices with only a little knowledge on the subject. We have schoolboys starting out with their first snake, we have PhD graduates with boundless knowledge, we have experienced field workers who have been dealing with reptiles in the wild for decades. This forum provides a 'level playing field' for all, we have no ranking system here, but are all equal and treat each other with mutual respect. Any member, regardless of their experience can feel comfortable to post and discuss an issue without the fear of ridicule or attack.

This is what makes Thamnophis.com special. We're not just a clique for the clever people.

So please, stick around and contribute some more. Feel free to argue, debate and disagree. All I ask is that you 'be nice'.:)
Its good to see a response. I thank you. However, I dont actually believe anything I wrote was actually an insult, probably, as you stated, not written nicely. I am also always careful how I respond to actual questions.
In herptoculture, there are several hot button issues. There needs to be, because if we as a community dont regulate ourselves...the governments approach is much easier than a few harsh questions. (a straight up ban...)
I provided a couple of resources to back up what I was writing about....
I know I cant know about someones background or practices unless I see or read it. But writing something and then taking exception as to how a follow up question is asked is one thing, but the answer should still be addressed.

This species is fully protected against being sold, injured or killed in the UK under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (3) (http://www.arkive.org/species/ARK/reptiles/Natrix_natrix/more_info.html#reference_3). One main aim of the conservation strategy for this species is to educate people about the grass snake, and to encourage them to tolerate its presence
This says nothing on collection. Might be protected under another piece of UK law that I havent seen. But in this country it takes some serious sanctions to dabble with any species thats protected in anyway.

[RZL36]

I don't understand why you wouldn't propagate healthy species into an area. My thing is that humans probably kill way more snakes (willingly or inadvertently) than probably any specific affliction in the wild. I really don't think of it as playing god. I think of it as replenishing the losses of others playing god.

However, I am not saying that captive reptiles make the best genetic stock for reintroduction. I think that ensuring that two wild caught specimens produce adequate stock for reintroduction is fine. I mean catch, breed, release. I mean releasing gravid females. Interfering as little as possible, so that these things we care about are going to be around in the future. I do respect your concern about the practice and its negative consequences if done so haphazardly.

[rancor_]

I don't understand why you wouldn't propagate healthy species into an area. My thing is that humans probably kill way more snakes (willingly or inadvertently) than probably any specific affliction in the wild. I really don't think of it as playing god. I think of it as replenishing the losses of others playing god.

This is true, but not necessarily correct. There, to me at least, are more ways to adversely effect the population than to aid it. Not every snake should be a breeder, possessing the correct genes to pass on to the locale of animals. Survival of the fittest cant really work if the participants are forced together. Also, I used the example provided in previous posts arguing what i had said, (loss of habitat). But assuming this isnt at all the reason, predators,(introduced or not), competition with another species, inadequate brumation spots, environmental pollution, lack of food....All of these common reasons for a decline of a species would be unaffected by simply dumping more animals into the ecosystem. They would need to be addressed first, otherwise, the released snakes would be more lunch for a predator, starve to death or freeze in the winter.
My use of the term "playing god" was deliberate in the sense that I believe too much would need to be done in addition to producing more animals. This is not to say anyone who is releasing isnt also taking steps to better the survival of the snakes, more of a prod to find that out.
I by no means meant anyone should justify to me what they do, not at all. But again, questions are mere questions until they are garnished with answers.

[RZL36]

I totally agree that breeding also needs to be worked in concert to habitat reconstruction (as is being done with our New Jersey Pine Snake). You should also take into account the lessening of pollution in some areas (believe it or not some places are actually becoming cleaner). Also, the decline of snake populations, in the simplest mathematical sense, means that less snakes are going to meet and reproduce. What is the harm in assisting this otherwise natural action?

You've never had to play "wingman" before?

[rancor_]

You've never had to play "wingman" before?
:D:D:DNow that perhaps is the funniest thing Ive read on this forum! ( at least aside from some serious posts that I found hysterical)
And now we are unearthing more of a WHOLE story. What also shouldnt be forgotten when posting about what one does, is that impressionable readers might not know that whole story. makes a dangerous situation when people arent clear on what they mean.
Conversly to what stance Ive taken on this subject, I do agree that work can be done by us lowly humans to better situations of animals that we may or may not have created. Without the tireless efforts of a few dedicated herpers, little would be known about even the status of some reptiles in North America, let alone how we can help them.
They make it possible for me to sit on my butt and watch my T.s Concinus from my couch! ;)

[Stefan-A]

Also, the decline of snake populations, in the simplest mathematical sense, means that less snakes are going to meet and reproduce. What is the harm in assisting this otherwise natural action?
It's pointless if it doesn't correct the underlying problem. Why are they scarce in the first place? Releasing more snakes might cause the whole population to collapse instead of decline.

[RZL36]

As I said in the beginning of my post, breeding must be worked in concert with habitat reconstruction.

How would it make them decline if there was habitat reconstruction?

Not trying to be snarly, just trying to figure out a little more about the subject.

[Stefan-A]

Once habitat restoration is completed then the natural population would grow, provided that it hasn't reached that critical level where not enough females become gravid to ensure population growth. If it has, then it would be necessary to improve their chances of finding a mate. Releasing offspring from a few individuals on the other hand would reduce the genetic diversity and place unnecessary pressure on a recovering population.

Like I said some time ago, it's a problem that we encounter all the time with for example salmon and trout. The wild population doesn't really benefit from the release of captive bred fish, even with restoration of the rivers where they mate. I'm just using this as an example because people have tried to get it to work for decades with very little success.

[RZL36]

Stefan,
Minä ymmärrän

I totally see what you mean by, "Releasing offspring from a few individuals on the other hand would reduce the genetic diversity and place unnecessary pressure on a recovering population."

What if the released snakes were put into multiple areas, so there wouldn't be a particular genetic line taking over? I am thinking more about how useful, selective captive breeding could really help locale.

In any event, I went out herping about 10 times over the summer and found very little. Disturbingly little. So I am desperately trying to figure out what is going on and if there is anything I can do to ensure the survival of snakes in my little area.

[KITKAT]

Stefan,
Minä ymmärrän

I totally see what you mean by, "Releasing offspring from a few individuals on the other hand would reduce the genetic diversity and place unnecessary pressure on a recovering population."

What if the released snakes were put into multiple areas, so there wouldn't be a particular genetic line taking over? I am thinking more about how useful, selective captive breeding could really help locale.

In any event, I went out herping about 10 times over the summer and found very little. Disturbingly little. So I am desperately trying to figure out what is going on and if there is anything I can do to ensure the survival of snakes in my little area.

Do anything you can to enrich the environment for them. Encourage the development of mitigation ponds, prairie flower plantings, leaving oldfields un-mowed, placing boards or insulated box hides in areas around water, managing resources in your area to reduce pesticide use and increased habitat for frogs and small fish.

Work with your local land trust to set aside undeveloped lands. Not familiar with land trusts? Go to APPALACHIAOHIOALLIANCE.ORG (http://www.appalachiaohioalliance.org) for one example. For your own area, go to The Land Trust Alliance (http://www.lta.org) and ask them about your area...

[zooplan]

It's pointless if it doesn't correct the underlying problem. Why are they scarce in the first place? Releasing more snakes might cause the whole population to collapse instead of decline.
A wild population may collapse only by 3 reasons:
too less indiviuals
too many predators
too little resources (habitat, food, water)
When a population grows more than the habitat can host, individuals would be forced to migrate.

[Stefan-A]

We're not simply talking about a wild population, we are talking about a wild population that's already declining due to a lack of resources (habitat, for example) and then suddenly subjected to increased competition for those resources. The carrying capacity would be exceeded even further and the population would collapse as a result.

First, the amount of resources would plummet and the mortality rate would skyrocket as a result. That alone can make the population collapse. If that doesn't happen, you'll still have a population with a need to migrate and because of the previous sudden increase in the use of the resources in the area, the area would now be able to hold even fewer individuals than before, exacerbating their situation. And fewer individuals could very well lead to the population reaching that critical level.

But if the habitat is restored, the population will recover on its own, at a more reasonable rate. Provided that there still are enough individuals left.

[adamanteus]

I thought we were talking about catching one pair of non-threatened snakes, keeping them and breeding them for a single season, then releasing the (uncontaminated)adults and babies back into their original environment. Isn't that what started this off?

[Stefan-A]

:D Good point. Thank you, James. :)

[adamanteus]

I still can't see anything wrong with that!:D

[RZL36]

And I agree.