found this on kingsnake

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

someones selling a male and female oregon red-spott thought some1 might want to buy it
kingsnake.com Classifieds (http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=6&de=548581)

[zooplan]

to far away for me

[garterking]

someones selling a male and female oregon red-spott thought some1 might want to buy it
kingsnake.com Classifieds (http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=6&de=548581)

I would be very leary of a guy selling snakes he feeds goldfish to. He might not be the most knowledgable about their care.

[drache]

not only that
I think they're a bit pricey considering they're not spectacular

[flakgunner]

hey,
nice ,but a bit pricey would be a under statement,at 200,I could easily pickup,8-10 Rat Snakes or a nice downpayment on a Florida Indigo.

Joe

[Lulu Bennett]

that artical looks like it is through a company. so if a reptile company is selling garters that they are feeding on goldfish then they shouldn't be aloud the care of these snakes.

[enigma200316]

I agree, the snakes already most likely have problems being feed the goldfish, and are way pricey, but good heads up any way Reed thanks...:)

[RZL36]

Juvie garters can eat goldfish until they get to rodents. Thiaminase is a four letter word around here. I plan on continuing my baby radix and marcianus on them (minnows) until they can get pinkies. Should be about a month from now.

I'm pretty sure it is the continual feeding of goldfish solely that is warned against.

The price is a bit much, but they sure would make some nice babies.

[enigma200316]

I read somewhere and I can't remember where, but they can have problems, and even die as early as within 4-6 months if Goldfish are sole food source.............

[adamanteus]

Garters should not be fed goldfish, at all. They are toxic, and the toxins are cumulative. There is no safe way of feeding goldfish to Garters.

[RZL36]

So is there a substantive difference between a minnow and a goldfish?

If there is, I think I may have misrepresented my point. I have never fed goldfish before, but rosy red minnows work like a charm. Great for getting them onto pinks.


So do think there is a difference, James (or anyone)?

[adamanteus]

Rosy's are great....they don't contain Thiaminase, whereas goldfish do.:)

[ssssnakeluvr]

rosies are minnows....goldfish are in a different family...make great pets but lousy food for garters.

[RZL36]

Thanks guys. I had no idea. I thought rosies were just baby goldfish. Sorry :(

[adamanteus]

No probs, Rich. I think goldfish belong to the Carp family....anyone?

If anyone has never witnessed the effects of thiamin deficiency, let me just outline a few of the symptoms.....
At first the snake looks well and continues to put on weight, but the movements appear impaired. The snake seems 'clumbsy' and will fall over for no apparent reason. As things progress, forward movement is accompanied by a strange spiralling of the body, so that sections of the belly are uppermost as the snake crawls. Later, the snake will twist itself into tight coils and knots, and suddenly convulse. The muscle tension can be so great that I have seen Garters prolapse large sections of the gut.

Although Thiaminase prevents the synthesis of calcium in the body, this does not show as poor bone formation, as you might expect. Obviously calcium is needed by the motor system of the snake. Death results long before bone deformity becomes apparent. It must be incredibly painfull.

Trust me, you don't want to see your snakes go through this. Never use fish containing Thiaminase. There are so many safe alternatives.

[anji1971]

Yes, goldfish do indeed belong to the carp family. Don't know the scientific name -- that stuff is for you guys!!:p:p But I do know that they are related!

[enigma200316]

Yes, goldfish do indeed belong to the carp family. Don't know the scientific name -- that stuff is for you guys!!:p:p But I do know that they are related!


yes Goldfish are in the Carp Family, they are close cousins..........:)
Golfish(Carassius auratus) so there ya go..........:D

[enigma200316]

oh and a rosy-reds are in the Carp Family, but I'm not sure how they do that,but any way a Rosy is actually a color phase of a FatHead Minnow(Pimephales promelas) so theres that one also...................:D

[Charlet_2007]

ive been feeding my garter toads well sence there isnt any now that fall and winter is here, i was like man where do i find toads at? then today I was feeding my T's crickets and thought hey what if i put crickets in there with the garter? He loves them!!! :D im so happy that i don't have to find toads now.....

[garterking]

ive been feeding my garter toads well sence there isnt any now that fall and winter is here, i was like man where do i find toads at? then today I was feeding my T's crickets and thought hey what if i put crickets in there with the garter? He loves them!!! :D im so happy that i don't have to find toads now.....

No offense, I've never heard of them eating crickets. You must have a rare one.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

or he could hav a ribbon dont ribbons eat crickets correct me if im wrong

No offense, I've never heard of them eating crickets. You must have a rare one.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

o nevermind just saw ur garter pics, i dont know if crickets haave that good of nutrients anways

[Josh]

ive been feeding my garter toads well sence there isnt any now that fall and winter is here, i was like man where do i find toads at? then today I was feeding my T's crickets and thought hey what if i put crickets in there with the garter? He loves them!!! :D im so happy that i don't have to find toads now.....
THey cant digest the crickets exo skeloton.

[ssssnakeluvr]

he might be eating the crickets, but hes not getting anything out of them....they aren't part of the garters diets...they are unable to digest the exoskeltons.

[zooplan]

Never saw a garter eating crikets.
Heard a lot about it, pro and contra.
Can you take a picture of it?

[drache]

Never saw a garter eating crikets.
Heard a lot about it, pro and contra.
Can you take a picture of it?

Udo
when you get your pile of books, there's one that has a photo of a garter eating a cricket
Mikhaila and I a certain that this must be a photo of a wax model

[Stefan-A]

I've seen a picture of a garter holding a cricket in its mouth, but just one picture and of course you can't know whether the snake actually swallowed it.

[drache]

I've seen a picture of a garter holding a cricket in its mouth, but just one picture and of course you can't know whether the snake actually swallowed it.

that's really all it is - probably the same picture

[Stefan-A]

If my memory serves me correctly, the snake in the picture I'm thinking of was a ribbon. I'm not sure where I saw it, probably not here, possibly on kingsnake.com.

[drache]

no this one's a garter - greenish looking sirtalis I think

[Charlet_2007]

He was WC... My cat almost killed him... If he was out in the wild whats to say he did eat crickets or any bugs for that matter... I know he loves toads but anything you look up on them it says they eat small crickets and toads and such... Come on there's not pinky mice that show up magically every time a garter gets hungry lol .. I'm pretty sure they can digest the exo skeloton or we wont have them our in the wild today...

[vwsrcool]

:confused: ive never had a problem with feeding goldfish to my snakes, i never knew they were bad for them.

we used to get goldfish all the time until they got to expensive, i think they were $10 for 100. now we buy minnows buy the pound from the bait shop, depending on there size you get 250 - 300 minnows for $14.

when we did feed them goldfish that wasnt all they got. we feed worms, fish, mice, frogs, toads, salamanders and tadpoles. we feed them worms, mice and fish all the time and the amphibians when they can be caught.

back to the point they allways did fine with the goldfish, but i guess i will make sure to stay away from them now.

what do you guys think???:confused:

[drache]

I remember that I used to feed goldfish to my first garters
they didn't live very long
not sure what they died of
back then I most likely made a host of other mistakes too

the thing is
once you know something's not good, it makes more sense to avoid it

[brandon0133]

well ive read yes and no on that one,,,i feed them every once in awhile to my garters and they love them,,,and i dont see any harm in a few now and then,,,maybe if u fed them that all the time and nothing else then i could see it messing with ure diet,,,but its like someone on a diet that eats one hamburger,,,it aint going to mess there whole diet up unless they eat them all the time,,IMO

[rancor_]

well ive read yes and no on that one,,,i feed them every once in awhile to my garters and they love them,,,and i dont see any harm in a few now and then,,,maybe if u fed them that all the time and nothing else then i could see it messing with ure diet,,,but its like someone on a diet that eats one hamburger,,,it aint going to mess there whole diet up unless they eat them all the time,,IMO
Its nothing like eating a hamburger. Unless we're talking a burger laced with e. coli . Its not the nutritional content thats the issue, read closer...its thiaminase. there is no arguable reason to feed a something a toxic food when other options are available. The guy who bred my garters starts them on worms, and switchs to mice as soon as theyll take them. My male was born in july 07 and after 10-12 worm meals with me, has just taken a cut up pinkie tonight. Mice are a complete food item and IMO, there isnt any reason to supliment with fish, worms salamander ect...
In closing, DONT FEED THEM GOLDFISH....theyre snakes not oscars.;)

[Charlet_2007]

i wouldn't even feed my Oscars gold fish.. they have hole in the head disease... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[vwsrcool]

ok i guess i wont do the goldfish thing anymore, but i was just stating that i have feed goldfish for years with no ill effects.

if mice are considered a complete diet for garters, as long as they are getting mice why not give them a variety as extra stimulation? i know if i lived in a glass cage my entire life i wouldnt want to eat the same thing every day.

when i had a black rat snake years ago mice was his main diet, it also go baby chickens, baby quail and toads.

my point is i have always tried to make my pets lives better ( or at least i think so ) by feeding them variety, and changing the items in there cages every few weeks.

am i wrong for thinking that way?

[Lori P]

Ben, I agree, variety is important. We restrict their lives so much, the least we can do is give them some interest in their meals. As long as everything is healthy and they are happy to eat a variety, I think it's a great idea.

[RZL36]

I tried feeding my snakes variety. The only thing I got out of it was a love for garters. Everytime I look at them I think, "I can't believe you were gonna be food."

[Lori P]

LOL Rich! And they look at you and think, "I can't belive he was gonna use us for food!! Quick, someone poop on him!!" LOL

[rancor_]

if mice are considered a complete diet for garters, as long as they are getting mice why not give them a variety as extra stimulation? i know if i lived in a glass cage my entire life i wouldnt want to eat the same thing every day.

when i had a black rat snake years ago mice was his main diet, it also go baby chickens, baby quail and toads.

my point is i have always tried to make my pets lives better ( or at least i think so ) by feeding them variety, and changing the items in there cages every few weeks.

am i wrong for thinking that way?
To me, its not really a black and white issue of right and wrong. Look at it from the snakes actual prospective, (not a human thinking like a snake). If your snake is CB which its really a shame that so many people seem to have acquired their garters in less than ideal ways, it knows no life in the wild. A snake isnt like a mammal, so scratch the mammalian thought process. It doesnt care that it lives in a box, it doesnt care that its fed one type of food, it just doesnt care at all....its a snake. they operate only on instinct with very little altered behavior. In nature, animals specialize on one food item all the time... a balanced meal is a balanced meal...toads, frogs and other captured prey only increase introduction to parasites and other dangers that, while encountered in the woods, are much different inside a glass box.
Garters and other active colubrids are unique in the fact that they dont spend all their active hours in a hole, like pythons for instance. Room to roam and stuff to explore is what provides stimulation, not their lunch.

[drache]

Room to roam and stuff to explore is what provides stimulation, not their lunch.

I'd like to add to that, that garters even like to be somewhere where they can see what's going on outside their box
I think variety in food is nice, but food being safe is more important
truly - we don't know how snakes experience flavour and texture of food

[Lori P]

You know, these are good points too. Truly, I do not have a clear understanding of what is pleasurable to a snake... I have to remind myself that they are not dogs, they aren't in this for the human companionship, belly rubs and shared pork chops. I do understand that they don't percieve us with any affection.
But... still.... they have to be able to get enjoyment out of sunning, climbing interesting branches, rubbing on different textures, even cuddling with each other... don't they? So life in a barren box has got to get boring... don't you think?? I saw a boa this weekend in the saddest set up... nothing but a water tub. No hide, nothing at all to do, literally a tank with newspapers and a water tub. And he'd been kept like that for 7 years!!!! He doesn't get taken out-- he doesn't get any stimulation. But I guess the question is, does he know he's deprived? I found the whole thing depressing and I think his owner should be ashamed... but maybe I project too much....

[anji1971]

Maybe you're projecting and maybe not, Lori, but sometimes, even if the animal doesn't really know the difference, or have any real feelings, it makes US feel better to give them every possible comfort we can. I don't really think any caring person CAN take the human emotional element out of the equation!:)

And, yes, they certainly seem to derive pleasure (or at least interest) from the different stimuli we provide!

[anji1971]

my point is i have always tried to make my pets lives better ( or at least i think so ) by feeding them variety, and changing the items in there cages every few weeks.
am i wrong for thinking that way?

No, Ben, I don't think you're wrong for having that opinion, but there are quite a lot of things you can feed your snake that are safe and healthy. Mine never ate mice, and I don't plan on trying them again, but I have been trying to introduce more than one food -- just for variety, like you!!:D Now that you know about the goldfish issue, it seems like you are more than willing to change that, so I think you are definitely on the right track!!:)

[sschind]

To me, its not really a black and white issue of right and wrong. Look at it from the snakes actual prospective, (not a human thinking like a snake). If your snake is CB which its really a shame that so many people seem to have acquired their garters in less than ideal ways, it knows no life in the wild. A snake isnt like a mammal, so scratch the mammalian thought process. It doesnt care that it lives in a box, it doesnt care that its fed one type of food, it just doesnt care at all....its a snake. they operate only on instinct with very little altered behavior. In nature, animals specialize on one food item all the time... a balanced meal is a balanced meal...toads, frogs and other captured prey only increase introduction to parasites and other dangers that, while encountered in the woods, are much different inside a glass box.
Garters and other active colubrids are unique in the fact that they dont spend all their active hours in a hole, like pythons for instance. Room to roam and stuff to explore is what provides stimulation, not their lunch.

You make some good points, but I take issue with your insinuation (what with the italics and all) that anyone who keeps WC animals is doing a bad thing. In most of the cases in this forum we are talking about people who have captured their own snakes or maybe two or even three. We are not talking about people who have gone out and collected hundreds or even thousands or have bought from people who have contributed in such wholesale collection, even though this thread is a direct result of that. ( I think the snakes originally discussed were WC, and people have purchased other WC snakes,) In areas where wild populations are healthy and steady I see absolutely nothing wrong with people catching and keep wild animals as long as they can provide for them. Some animals simply are not available as CBB specimens. They either won't breed or no one tries to breed them because there is no money in it. No offense but I get a little tired of seeing responses like "let the snake go, if your kid wants a snake buy him a CBB corn snake" I know if any of my kids (if I had kids) came home with a garter snake or an American toad and said they wanted to keep it I would have absolutely no problem letting him or her do so even though I have access to any CBB snake or frog they may want. Don't get me wrong. I encourage CBB over WC any chance I get but I am not about to tell some mother who brings their 5 year old in with a garter snake he just caught under their back porch that he is doing a bad thing by wanting to keep it and that he should let it go and buy a CBB snake from me. If I feel that he, and the parents of course, can take care of the snake in question, (if it were a red belly or a brown snake that would be a different story because they are typically harder to take care of,) I will tell them what they need to do to keep it. If I feel they can't take care of it why on earth would I try to sell them a CBB one of mine. I talk so many people out of keeping baby turtles simply by telling them how much a proper setup would cost but its not the same for many other animals.

I have a tank with blue spotted salamanders and small American toads in it right now and It is one of my favorite tanks even though I haven't seen the sallys in about a month. My favorite frogs of all are Gray tree frogs and when I get some space freed up I will have a tank of them as well.

I certainly don't mean to single you out or belittle your opinion rancor, and I suspect that you may have some of the same feelings. I's just that some people go way over the top on subjects like WC and mixing (please, you don't want to get me started on that subject) that they have no room for reason or compromise.

[Lulu Bennett]

i am going to throw in my opinion in here...
i do not have any problem in someone catching a snake and bringing it home to keep but i do not agree in taking a huge number of snakes and breeding to sell. too many are being taken from the wild and eventually it will decrese in numbers like the san fran. i understand there is many factore contributing to the decline in numbers but it isn't fair to take so many and help along the chance of extinction.

[rancor_]

You make some good points, but I take issue with your insinuation (what with the italics and all) that anyone who keeps WC animals is doing a bad thing. In most of the cases in this forum we are talking about people who have captured their own snakes or maybe two or even three. We are not talking about people who have gone out and collected hundreds or even thousands or have bought from people who have contributed in such wholesale collection, even though this thread is a direct result of that. ( I think the snakes originally discussed were WC, and people have purchased other WC snakes,) In areas where wild populations are healthy and steady I see absolutely nothing wrong with people catching and keep wild animals as long as they can provide for them. Some animals simply are not available as CBB specimens. They either won't breed or no one tries to breed them because there is no money in it. No offense but I get a little tired of seeing responses like "let the snake go, if your kid wants a snake buy him a CBB corn snake" I know if any of my kids (if I had kids) came home with a garter snake or an American toad and said they wanted to keep it I would have absolutely no problem letting him or her do so even though I have access to any CBB snake or frog they may want. Don't get me wrong. I encourage CBB over WC any chance I get but I am not about to tell some mother who brings their 5 year old in with a garter snake he just caught under their back porch that he is doing a bad thing by wanting to keep it and that he should let it go and buy a CBB snake from me. If I feel that he, and the parents of course, can take care of the snake in question, (if it were a red belly or a brown snake that would be a different story because they are typically harder to take care of,) I will tell them what they need to do to keep it. If I feel they can't take care of it why on earth would I try to sell them a CBB one of mine. I talk so many people out of keeping baby turtles simply by telling them how much a proper setup would cost but its not the same for many other animals.

I have a tank with blue spotted salamanders and small American toads in it right now and It is one of my favorite tanks even though I haven't seen the sallys in about a month. My favorite frogs of all are Gray tree frogs and when I get some space freed up I will have a tank of them as well.

I certainly don't mean to single you out or belittle your opinion rancor, and I suspect that you may have some of the same feelings. I's just that some people go way over the top on subjects like WC and mixing (please, you don't want to get me started on that subject) that they have no room for reason or compromise.
I didnt insinuate anything. what I stated was quite clear. Setting out to collect a snake, finding one in a backyard, I liked the way it looks can I keep it in a tank with my RES and my Corn...ect... its all a matter of opinion. mine is simple. A kid beginning a life long love of reptiles is different from an adult with 20$. Never said keeping wild caught was bad, if it was, my tanks would be empty waiting on the test tube snakes...(due Nov. 2042). If an adult that truly is in it for the animals, money doesnt matter. Catching a snake that you intend to propagate in captivity is one thing, but taking it from the wild to stick it in a tank is another. IMHO, if one collects a snake from the wild because they cant obtain it in the trade, it should be to make it available for someone else to get CB(ie. to breed it). If that means you sell it to them for 5 bucks, a case of beer (how i paid for my pair), or give it to them for... free!! A word virtually unheard of in this "industrious trade" we have made for ourselves.:eek::eek:
Lemme Bold some text before I go on...
No offense but I get a little tired of seeing responses like "let the snake go, if your kid wants a snake buy him a CBB corn snake" I know if any of my kids (if I had kids) came home with a garter snake or an American toad and said they wanted to keep it I would have absolutely no problem letting him or her do so even though I have access to any CBB snake or frog they may want.
This is not what I would be referring to. Its very common for someone to get into herps by catching a frog, or toad, or snake... and trying to keep it alive in their house. but once you become conscious of what you are doing, it shouldnt matter that you have to wait 6 months, search with effort, or contact people to get the snake, or animal you have such a passion for that you might have to pay a buck or two to obtain a CB. There really isnt that many species out there that havent been bred in captivity, and its unfortunate that you (singling YOU out) would take the "cause its easier" stance. Id never assume that a 10 year old would share my views, or that you would - - or anyone else would- - - for that matter, but I havent seen many 10 year olds on this forum, mostly 13+. If you value a "garter community" than I would hope you wouldnt pick apart posts with valuable info, though a different outlook than your own, that are for the greater good of that community. Conservation is Key to not having all species end up where San frans has ended up. Common is only common until theyre threatened.
I look forward to any responses on this post, and I dont want to offend, just expand a discussion that I dont think some people think about.
Enlightenment can only happen with a flame.;)

P.S I like my italics. They work to EMPHASIZE my text as alot of feeling is lost in the written post.:cool:

[RZL36]

As long as you are not picking up threatened or endangered, there is nothing wrong with it. My first snake was a garter snake that I found in a park. I kept it for two days and let it go.

I would love to find a pair of garters native to my area and breed them out in captivity. Then put 10 times as many back. I'm not seeing a downside.

[rancor_]

As long as you are not picking up threatened or endangered, there is nothing wrong with it. My first snake was a garter snake that I found in a park. I kept it for two days and let it go.

I would love to find a pair of garters native to my area and breed them out in captivity. Then put 10 times as many back. I'm not seeing a downside.
thats becuase your only looking short term. there are MANY issues regarding what you are proposing, and very few, if any benifits.

[adamanteus]

For a long time I used to collect one pair of Natrix natrix helvetica locally each year, breed them and release both parents and offspring back into the wild. I'm curious to hear what down-side you think there is with this.

[enigma200316]

For a long time I used to collect one pair of Natrix natrix helvetica locally each year, breed them and release both parents and offspring back into the wild. I'm curious to hear what down-side you think there is with this.


I don't see a downside as long as they are wild caught then released after having the babies, I can see some people saying you might over populate that way, but with only one or maybe a few people doing it I think it would be a great thing, specially in a place numbers may be low,but thats just me...............:)

[adamanteus]

That's my thinking. In areas where snakes and people coexist the snakes are (generally) somewhat persecuted. By breeding and releasing relatively small numbers, I feel I was doing my bit to redress the imbalance.

[rancor_]

For a long time I used to collect one pair of Natrix natrix helvetica locally each year, breed them and release both parents and offspring back into the wild. I'm curious to hear what down-side you think there is with this.
Wow.
Where to start. I cant site references now, but there has been many documented cases of people like yourself introducing parasites and pathogens that decimate populations. (Turtles anyone??) I will site some at a later date as I have been consuming some beverages that make research hard to do at the moment.;)
Why would you do such a thing??? God complex perhaps? I know youre a mod and as I am new here, my posts can and should be taken with a grain of salt, but such practices are hardly beneficial, and usually only self gratifying.
What I have found as far as thamnophis goes is a completely different view than most other genus. Should I breed my aspidites and send them to the threatened part of their range???
Interesting discussion we have unearthed and I look forward to the responses from the learned.:D

[enigma200316]

I will site some at a later date as I have been consuming some beverages that make research hard to do at the moment.;)


thats exactly why you should not have wrote what you did..........are you flipping kidding me!!!!! then all humans that are captive bred and we all are, and we all carry parasites and some pathogens shouldn't be released into the wild then either.........were all animals and if we can reproduce with help might add why can't any other animal be given the same chance...........thats my opinion, oh and btw I've been eating a lot of chips tonight so pay no attention to my ranting...............;)

[rancor_]

I will site some at a later date as I have been consuming some beverages that make research hard to do at the moment.;)


thats exactly why you should not have wrote what you did..........are you flipping kidding me!!!!! then all humans that are captive bred and we all are, and we all carry parasites and some pathogens shouldn't be released into the wild then either.........were all animals and if we can reproduce with help might add why can't any other animal be given the same chance...........thats my opinion, oh and btw I've been eating a lot of chips tonight so pay no attention to my ranting...............;)
Nope not kidding in the slightest. And chips go right to your thighs.;)
The drinks, just effect my concentration. But just for you, heres some Silent Research, just for you!;)
Think about what you feed your "captive" Only under some provisions should animals be released back into the wild. The Massasauga Recovery Team wanted to release EMRs close to an area they were removed from (windsor area/'development over hibernation sites). Although they were successful at preventing pathogen infestation, the governing bodies thought it was dangerous to release EMRs into the wild (eventhough they were collected 2 kms away
To say what I wrote is a rant is a laugh compared to what you wrote. (Reading will get ya everytime)
Disease and pestilence cant spread...can it??:confused:
Heres a another actual quote of mine...
Should I breed my aspidites and send them to the threatened part of their range???
Its required reading for rebutals....

p.s dont pack up your ball and go home.

[zooplan]

governing bodies thought: LOL
Sorry, but I can´t see any argument to assist your point of view in your quote.
You should give a comparable example with provable bad results!

[drache]

I'd see a problem, if the snakes were exposed to other snakes while in captivity
but short of that
if both the parents are from the same area and are being released into the same area, I cannot see how they would spread diseases and pathogens they didn't previously have
particularly with that short a period of captivity

[rancor_]

governing bodies thought: LOL
Sorry, but I can´t see any argument to assist your point of view in your quote.
You should give a comparable example with provable bad results!
Yep. I should. And you should think beyond what you accept. How many release programs for reptiles do you know of that are actually government sanctioned?? in this country, they release turtles, but off hand I know no snake, amphibian or lizard program.
To ask me to prove bad results is just like me asking you to prove good ones. It be pretty hard for you to know the snake you set free infected the locale wouldnt it??

I'd see a problem, if the snakes were exposed to other snakes while in captivity
And thus what I was eluding to. There are variables when bringing a wild snake into a facility with captives.
Sorry to hijack this thread, as I know the path we are on has nothing to do with the 2 snakes on kingsnake...:D

[zooplan]

To ask me to prove bad results is just like me asking you to prove good ones. It be pretty hard for you to know the snake you set free infected the locale wouldnt it??

of course, but how should this be proven?
All this discussion is about theories until one can give a hint to any exact scientific study.
We have release programms for Natrix tesselata, treefrogs and red bellied toads here, working quite well.

[drache]

clearly it's not something to be attempted by sloppy people

[zooplan]

clearly it's not something to be attempted by sloppy people
thats a fact I can affirm

[RZL36]

I don't understand how taking a pair out of the wild, breeding them successfully and reintroducing them into the wild could do more bad than good. As long as they are quarantined (so you don't hurt either you cbb or you wc snakes), I'm not seeing anything wrong with it. In New Jersey, where I am from, there are fewer and fewer snakes. So me, and maybe the three other people in my county, trying to offset human encroachment into habitat is "playing god?"

[rancor_]

I don't understand how taking a pair out of the wild, breeding them successfully and reintroducing them into the wild could do more bad than good. As long as they are quarantined (so you don't hurt either you cbb or you wc snakes), I'm not seeing anything wrong with it. In New Jersey, where I am from, there are fewer and fewer snakes. So me, and maybe the three other people in my county, trying to offset human encroachment into habitat is "playing god?"
Again, not a black and white issue, but if the decrease is due to habitat loss...how would pumping more snakes into a smaller area help? That would actually just increase mortality rates (more young competing for the same resources). There are many historical examples of humans "playing God" with wildlife that were more harmful than successful.
If steps are taken to do things properly, than its a non-issue, but Adding a WC pair into your room full of garters to breed and release...isnt really proper. Fecal exams, bloodwork, are all expensive and I doubt most would pay for it on snakes they plan on setting free.
[quote]of course, but how should this be proven?[\quote]
This would be where an actual study is done, not a drop and go. Long term studies show how effective release programs are.

[RZL36]

It would help by supplementing a population that is usually killed by people just being afraid of snakes (which is certainly a facet of human encroachment).

What historical examples do you have about the capturing, captive breeding and releasing of native herps?

Again if they were quarantined from the rest of my snakes and subsequently, not getting any potential diseases that my cbs would have, why would I need to do all that veterinary work?

The only thing I really am doing is assuring that two snakes, that would normally do so, meet, get married and breed. It really is as simple as that. That is fairly black and white? Agreed?

[adamanteus]

Wow.
Where to start. I cant site references now, but there has been many documented cases of people like yourself introducing parasites and pathogens that decimate populations. (Turtles anyone??) I will site some at a later date as I have been consuming some beverages that make research hard to do at the moment.;)
Why would you do such a thing??? God complex perhaps? I know youre a mod and as I am new here, my posts can and should be taken with a grain of salt, but such practices are hardly beneficial, and usually only self gratifying.
What I have found as far as thamnophis goes is a completely different view than most other genus. Should I breed my aspidites and send them to the threatened part of their range???
Interesting discussion we have unearthed and I look forward to the responses from the learned.:D

I feel no need to explain myself or my actions to you. But I do however take exception to the tone of your reply. You have no notion of who I am or what my motives are.

[zooplan]

Again, not a black and white issue, but if the decrease is due to habitat loss...how would pumping more snakes into a smaller area help? That would actually just increase mortality rates (more young competing for the same resources). There are many historical examples of humans "playing God" with wildlife that were more harmful than successful.
If steps are taken to do things properly, than its a non-issue, but Adding a WC pair into your room full of garters to breed and release...isnt really proper. Fecal exams, bloodwork, are all expensive and I doubt most would pay for it on snakes they plan on setting free.
[quote]of course, but how should this be proven?[\quote]
This would be where an actual study is done, not a drop and go. Long term studies show how effective release programs are.
decrease may not due to habitat loss only ( like building roads) but also caused by artifical predators (pets like rats, cats, dogs, lawnmowers, cars, ploughs....and infections)
In such a multiple caused situation the catch and release strategy will help a population to survive some critical years or push it to evolve and assimilate.

[RZL36]

Good points Udo.