Anyone ever cross tetrataenia with blotched ssp. (infernalis, concinnus, parietalis)

[G-natrix]

I would be interested to know if anyone has ever outcrossed a T.s. tetrataenia to a blotched subspecies. I suspect this is counterintuitive for most people insofar as the striped morph is desirable & probably most breeders are trying to breed blotches out of their lines, not breed them in. Nonetheless it would be an extremely timely experiment. If any of you have tets to burn, why not cross a few out to some nice blotchy infernalis or concinnus and post the results? Science would thank you.

Cheers,

G

[adamanteus]

It would be interesting, particularly with infernalis, but I guess tetrataenia is so hard to get (or so expensive) that few people would want to sully the line. Interesting idea though.

[zooplan]

These are two hybrids of ´tetrataenia and ´parietalis
http://www.zooplan.net/images/hybridrot.jpg
one more redish
http://www.zooplan.net/images/hybridblau04.jpg
the other one more bluish
poorly to see on the bad picture
I´ve bought them around millenium.
The red one passed away few years later and the blueish one went back to the breeder to keep forward without breeding.

[KITKAT]

Beautiful babies, Zooplan!

That one pic makes me think of a caption!:rolleyes:

[drache]

Beautiful babies, Zooplan!

That one pic makes me think of a caption!:rolleyes:

me too
and now I'm curious . . .

[Bay_area]

I personally against trying to hybrid snakes. With that said, their is a spot in San Mateo County that I know about where tetrataenia & infernalis both live among other species of garters. I know for a fact that those two do naturally cross breed in the wild. Nothing prettier than seeing a SF Garter in the wild!

This pic was taken by a friend of mine @ one of the few locations they can still be found

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c306/norcalsnakemaster/SFGarter.jpg

[zooplan]

The hybrids shown up, are produced by a kind of accident.
Most breeders here are against hybrids too.
Nice to see, that there are still a few ´tetrataenia left in the wild.
European breeders would give a hand or a leg to get one as fresh blood for the European strain.

[Bay_area]

European breeders would give a hand or a leg to get one as fresh blood for the European strain.

Not worth going to prision for:eek:

I have Eastern Indigos & it sure would be great to have a fresh strain available to breed them too:rolleyes:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c306/norcalsnakemaster/IMG_0662.jpg

[G-natrix]

Wonderful, Udo! The phenotype of those two snakes answers one or two specific questions I had. I am always appreciative of creative genetic tinkering. Good work,

G

[zooplan]

what penalty is set to something like catching, keeping, breeding, selling or shipping a San Franzisco Garter Snake to Europe?
Would there be any way to get a permission for that?

[G-natrix]

Penalties are severe -- potentially you could do jail time and the fine is something like $20,000.00 USD (that's right - twenty THOUSAND dollars) PER SNAKE.

There's a procedure for getting a permit but they're hard to get & take a couple years sometimes to process. You would need to have a pretty good conservation and/or science angle to get the permit. They don't give them out for breeders or pet trade associated uses.

G

[Bay_area]

what penalty is set to something like catching, keeping, breeding, selling or shipping a San Franzisco Garter Snake to Europe?
Would there be any way to get a permission for that?

Not sure of the penalty, but it is Federally Protected not just a State crime. The "Feds" have more power & will prosecute to the fullest no matter what. Even know we are not doing anything wrong, when we see one in the wild, I am nervous the whole time while taking pics of them:eek:

Another Federally protected snake in my area is the Alameda Striped Racer.
A beatiful snake!
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c306/norcalsnakemaster/477459388_ac91119865_b.jpg

[Stefan-A]

It is a beautiful snake. Almost looks like that other wannabe garter, Nerodia clarkii. ;)

[zooplan]

20.000,00 thats a lot for one snake, but when I know right, habitat resources for those snakes are still decreasing.
As it seems coservation and science are much closer to private efforts in Europe.

[Charlet_2007]

if i was going to pay that much for a snake it would b for a lutistic (spelling?) ball python not mixing different snakes... :confused:

[adamanteus]

$20,000 isn't the price of the snake...it's the cost of the fine if you are caught interferring with them!

[Bay_area]

$20,000 isn't the price of the snake...it's the cost of the fine if you are caught interferring with them!
And they do not even let you keep the snake after you pay the fine...LOL!

[zooplan]

You should not keep it, ship it to me:D

Serious again:
If habitat decreasing is going on, the natural populations will be died out soon.
Only very few specimens would expand the European geenpool enormously.

[Thamnophis]

You can also say that when the habitats for tetrataenia are (almost) gone and there is no chance to restore them, why should you protect them in the wild.
I am not saying that is MY opinion, but it is something to discuss.

[zooplan]

If you can get a goal in two ways, both should be tried.
In conservation you can get best effects if habitat protection and a vital captive population could be relized.
One ore even a small group of specimens won´t hurt a vital population but can raise a new one.
The first ´tetrataenias have settled back to San Francisco from Europe yet.

[drache]

You can also say that when the habitats for tetrataenia are (almost) gone and there is no chance to restore them, why should you protect them in the wild.
I am not saying that is MY opinion, but it is something to discuss.
I know the area where they occur and I wouldn't say that their habitat is almost gone
I believe that protecting them in "the wild" has actually worked in that their numbers seem to be bouncing back (read something about that - not sure where)
as long as they're not being out-right persecuted, most snakes can do pretty well in relative proximity to human habitation, unless their dietary preference consists of something more delicate

[Thamnophis]

I thought that the diminishing of T. s. tetrataenia is not caused by the disappearing of the habitats (a Gartersnake is an opportunistic animal that easily adapts to its surroundings), but has more to do with the dissapearing of its main food source, the California red-legged frog (Rana aurora draytonii).

[drache]

yes, I had heard that as well
but apparently they are adapting to other food sources
you guys in Europe would know more about what that snake will eat
are you all breeding Cal red-legged frogs over there?

[Bay_area]

It is really strange with Fish & Wildlife or Fish & Game Departments on their view when it comes to reptiles, expecially snakes. They really have to be "pushed" when it comes to any type of protection for them or their habitat. It isn't until private organizations or the State University Biologist step in & make them do something. To be honest with you, one of the populations of SF Garters that my friends & I know about, F&G had no idea that they were @ this location til were told by one us:eek:.
Snakes do not get the same out cry from the public when they are harmed like other animals. If an otter, snowy plover, condor, etc was in the area, the whole area would be roped off & patrolled 24/7 by Rangers. I really do not blame the F&G officers, they are just to enforce the laws. F&G is underfunded & it is the ones in charge that set the budget. In Northern California F&G spends most of their time chasing poachers of abalone, deer, sturgen, whatever is big $$$(money) on the illegal market at the time.

[Thamnophis]

@ Bay area ... I agree with what you wrote above. Reptiels are often not seen as real animals

@ Drache ... no we are not breeding red leggs overhere.
But a snakesubspecies like tetrataenia has evolved together with those frogs. When the frogs dissapear the snakes are not immediately abled to change their feeding habits. Some of the might work this out and they are the beginning of a new population. But a lot of snakes will die. Think of the juvenile snakes that are born and instinctly go hunting for tadpoles of the redleggs. And there are no (or not enough) tadpoles. Than there is a problem!
In captivity it is a lot easier because we trick them in eating all kinds of other stuff.

[Bay_area]

The red legged frog is not the only thing they eat. Most garters are too small to eat red legged frogs anyhow. Their diet consist of alot more than just those frogs, such as nightcrawlers, treefrogs, various types of salamanders & like the California Redsided garters they are able to eat the newts without being affected by the skin that is poisonous to other animals.

California Red legged frogs. These are not that much smaller than a bullfrog. Find these crossing the road in the spring:)
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c306/norcalsnakemaster/478554488_4737aaaeb5_b.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c306/norcalsnakemaster/478555634_9c0abf223b_b.jpg

newts are all over the place in the spring. I am sure they are a big part of their diet
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c306/norcalsnakemaster/DSC00408-1.jpg

[zooplan]

@ bay area
nice to read that there are more SFGarters left than it seemed a few years ago.
Still its my point of view, that they are over protected a indiviluals and not enough supported as speci.
The reimport of those group to the zoo of SF took only a half year, maybe I should start trying an export to get one in a few years.

[Thamnophis]

I agree that they will eat more than only red frogs.
But it seems to be an important part of their diet.
Makes sense. In Spring when they mate and the females get pregnant there are probably a lot of tadpoles. They change into small frogs and are for months not to big to get eaten.
And when the circumstances for the frogs are bad, this is also the case for newts etc.
I have read somewhere that where the water was made suitable for the frogs again the tetrataenia's returned also.

[drache]

that's the thing
it's not so much the loss of habitat, as the degradation
both in the SF bay area as well as around other urban areas
once the environment - especially the water - gets cleaned up and there are more stringent disposal laws, the animals often return and are able to proliferate again

[Bay_area]

that's the thing
it's not so much the loss of habitat, as the degradation
both in the SF bay area as well as around other urban areas
once the environment - especially the water - gets cleaned up and there are more stringent disposal laws, the animals often return and are able to proliferate again

I have to disagree, The loss of habitat is the major problem. I do not know how things work in your Country, but in California it is sad. Unless the land has been set aside by the park systems there is no guarantee that the land will not be developed. If a developer wants to build on property they get an enviromental report. If the report says there are endangered spiecies on the land, you would think that would be the end of it. NOT! The devopers have lobbiest that go to the Politicians & get them to "bend the rules" to build if they relocate animals or set aside a portion of the property for wilderness. In a nut shell, that is what happens. It is a little more complex than that, but it does come down to who has the most money to donate to political campaigns. It is hard to get anyone to listen to anyone that fights for animals because the bad image that certain enviromental wackos have painted for those that want to help. Sort of like how the abortion clinic bombers gave a bad picture of what a Christian is.:(

Please do not take this wrong, I am glad that I live in USA, it just isn't a perfect system

[G-natrix]

I've been around the politics of tetrataenia a fair bit and I have to agree with Phillip Blais on the status of the snake. I don't know how HE knows what he knows, but he gets it just about right. Read it here:

The San Francisco Garter Snake in Canada - gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/000261_the_san_francisco_ga.phtml)

[Bay_area]

I've been around the politics of tetrataenia a fair bit and I have to agree with Phillip Blais on the status of the snake. I don't know how HE knows what he knows, but he gets it just about right. Read it here:

The San Francisco Garter Snake in Canada - gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/000261_the_san_francisco_ga.phtml)


Yes, the article is pretty accurate. Crystal Springs Resevoir is a well guarded place. The only way to go in there is with a guided hike with Rangers @ front & the rear making sure no one bothers any of the wildlife. I do not think there is a large problem with poachers as the article said. I do know some people that, lets say, not completely legal when it comes to what they have in their collection. I do not know anyone that is willing to poach SF Garters!
One problem that was not addressed in the article, was the populations on private property. People that own the property that have existing populations do not want the government agencies to know about them. The property owners are afraid that if it becomes public information there will be restrictions put on what they can do with their own property. If a farmer has a pond the contains red legged frogs & SF Garters and he wants to plant pumpkins, he might be forbidin to do so. Believe me, try & get permission to look, I have been told this before.

[G-natrix]

Of course the sad thing is that pumpkins are a pretty mild insult to the landscape out there -- in fact, they probably keep the pumpkin-driven economy of Half Moon Bay afloat & therefore may help to keep farmers going & thus stave off development (which WOULD be bad for the frog & the snake). That part of the coast is already pretty pumpkin-y & yet it would be hard to imagine the red-legged frogs existing at a higher density than they already are out there. As it stands they're in virtually every pond or ditch & the few bigger reservoirs that have bullfrogs share them with red-legged frogs (some kind of uneasy peace I assume). The Ano Nuevo pond supports a good population of T.s. tetrataenia & is one of the few spots on that stretch of coast that has a healthy population of bullfrogs, so I don't really see the threat there. Between State Parks and Peninsula Land Trust and the Coast Dairy/Cloverdale preserve and Mid-Peninsula Open Space District the coast is pretty tightly sewn up preservation-wise. Finally, I would think the best way to stave off poachers would be for the government to embark on a massive captive breeding program and flood the market with tets -- in fact, they should give them away for free. That would suck for people who like tets because they're rare, but that's THEIR problem. It would be great for all of us who like tets because they're pretty.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I would volunteer for the massive captive breeding prgram for the government.... :D:rolleyes:

[zooplan]

When ´tetrataenia breeding is going on like the last few yaers, we can float the US market with snakes from Europe, but without fresh blood
the population may decline again as well.
Prices went down from more than 500€ in the late 1990´th to less than 130€ now and are still decreasing.

[anji1971]

[quote=G-natrix;30731] .....and flood the market with tets -- in fact, they should give them away for free.......

Hey, free snakes are the only kind I'm allowed to have for a while, so it sounds great to me!!!! especially if I could get one as pretty as tetrataenia!!!:D:D

[Bay_area]

Finally, I would think the best way to stave off poachers would be for the government to embark on a massive captive breeding program and flood the market with tets -- in fact, they should give them away for free. That would suck for people who like tets because they're rare, but that's THEIR problem. It would be great for all of us who like tets because they're pretty.

that sounds like my step daughters aurgument for marijuana:eek:LOL!

Sounds like you know the area pretty good:rolleyes: G-natrix, do you live in Nor*Cal?

I think that the government should allow some type of captive breeding & release program to where the habitat has been restored. They did that with the condors, why not snakes? Anyhow, I already know their response to such a program. :(

[RZL36]

I would be into New Jersey letting me release northern pine babies (which I totally don't have;)). I don't get how a perfectly healthy captive bred snake, supplementing a threatened wild population, could adversely impact the environment. Maybe I should just reach out to the state and ask if they could give me some permissions. I would handle it from there.

As for hybridization of snakes, it doesn't bother me. I think it would be cool to make things that have never been done before. Subspecies intergrade all the time in the wild.

I personally think breeding my Florida blues with my marcianus (just got at Hamburg. Got a super pretty radix too) could produce some really pretty specimens. I'm not looking to make a fortune off of them. I just want to try something and see what happens. I'll sell what I can for dirt cheap and then release the rest. I'm not seeing a downside. There are plenty of minnows to eat and our snake population went from me seeing a garter snake once a week, to me not seeing one in 8 years.

[zooplan]

The government needs more time to develope new ideas.
Much more than people need for the same.
While they are developing it would be nice, useful, practical.....
to build up a strong and save population here.
European breeding had to start from a very small group of inbred specimens.