cross breeding

[Lori P]

So... in perusing different ads, I see a lot of mixes of corn snakes and king snakes. And I saw some anaconda hybrids the other day. But from what I've heard and read, most snake people seem to be against cross breeding. So what's the scoop? What are the reasons to not cross breed? I'm just curious, don't want anyone arguing over it. :-)

[drache]

what best explains it, is that there are different opinions on the matter

[zooplan]

Most hydrids are unique recognizeable mixtures of two species, a few are looking very similar to others.
Garter species are difined more by different locations than by different genpool.
If you cross breed without telling to sell hybrids, or even if the new owner pass them to somebody else without this information the genpool of a pure strain might be contaminated.

[Lori P]

Rhea, you should be a politician. LOL

Udo, got it. So it's about not contaminating the gene pool. Are there certain kinds of snakes where hybrids are more acceptable, like, the corn/king crosses? Or is it always kind of looked down on in all kinds of snakes? Just trying to get my info straight...

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

its best to stay away from cross breeding if your want to have some breeding fun try breeding different morphs of the same subspecies like im pretty sure a AnerythristicxAlbino= Most of babies are Snows

Rhea, you should be a politician. LOL

Udo, got it. So it's about not contaminating the gene pool. Are there certain kinds of snakes where hybrids are more acceptable, like, the corn/king crosses? Or is it always kind of looked down on in all kinds of snakes? Just trying to get my info straight...

[Lulu Bennett]

whats and anerythristic and how do you get them from albinos?

[adamanteus]

Anerythristic snakes lack red pigment. In the same way as Amelanistics lack black.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

its a bluish blackish morph that ive seen in plains not sure if it occurs in other subspecies and im pretty sure if you mate i with an albino plains it makes snows

whats and anerythristic and how do you get them from albinos?

[Lulu Bennett]

Anerythristic snakes lack red pigment. In the same way as Amelanistics lack black.

so Anerythristic lacks red pigment making it bluish/black
and Albino lacks all colour pigment making it a yellow/white? erm...:confused::D

[reptileparadise]

Albino lacks all black pigment (melanine...Amelanistic)

So to breed snow, you would have to cross anerythristics with amelanistic to get double hets. Crossing them back to each other can give you 1 snow in every 16 babies

[Lulu Bennett]

i think i might actually be getting this.....i think......:confused: lol

[Lori P]

I applaud you then... I read these posts with a determined, concentrated look on my face but the whole time my brain is going, "Aww, pretty flowers... I like purple... feathers tickle..." LOLOL!!!!!!!!

[Lulu Bennett]

pmsl lori atleast you tried lol

[anji1971]

Soooooo.................if I cross a Florida Blue with a Flame do I get a purple snake???? purple is nice................:D:D:D:D:D

Dammit, I'm an artist, not a scientist!!!!!!!!!

[rancor_]

There isnt really a good example of a snake whos gene pool actually benefited from hybridization. Hogg Island boa's for example, are mostly contaminated from breeding other locales into the line when it was newer to the hobby. Now im pretty sure there is no Hoggs left in the wild, and the strain, for the most part, is impure.
I choose to sit on the fence with the subject, because I see arguments on both sides having validity. The issue is never really with the "parents" or the first generation offspring... more with what happens when those are bred and sold, changing hands...but the information on the animal's background is lost. Then, its an issue for someone trying to breed pure bloodlines.

[zooplan]

For that it´s so important to save species, subspecies and lokal vartiations in thier habitats and serve the market with most CB animals.

[anji1971]

On a more serious note ( no purple snake stuff), and from what was mentioned about the Hogg's boas, could careful breeding help bring back a population of endangered varieties of snake? Here we have the Butler's garter which is protected, but if someone involved in that field could breed them could they not be released into the wild to bring up the numbers??? I know this isn't cross-breeding, but it's just a thought that I've wondered about.
Are there a lot of species that have been dwindled by cross-breeding??

[Lori P]

Purple snakes!! Oh yes, purple snakes!!! I want I want!!!!!!!!! Someone make PURPLE SNAKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D

[anji1971]

Now, now Lori, I was only being extremely silly- purple snake only work on the colour wheel, not in genetics- I could paint you some though!!!:D:D:D

although......know how famous we'd become if we could pull something like that off ??? custom colour garters- how cool is that????;);)

[Lori P]

Well, then we wouldn't have to die the sheds for the christmas tree! :-)

[reptileparadise]

custom colour garters

Well, I hope not...that would only attract the wrong kind of people (and some true garterfans as well, but you know what I mean)

[zooplan]

In Europe we have a lot of programms in zoos or special breeding stations to produce offspring of endangered species to release those again.
But this can only work if there are protected habitats for them to live.

[drache]

also
animals that are bred in captivity to re-stock native habitats are kept very differently from how most of us keep our snakes

[anji1971]

I haven't heard of any programs here like that, but i am going to look into it, just out of curiosity. What surprises me most is that around here we have LOTS of open areas just outside the city-Canada is a vast, rather empty country, so I'm actually kind of puzzled as to why the Butler's are so endangered in the first place. On any afternoon drive I see hundreds of fields, meadows and wooded areas that would be perfect for them, and yet all I read about is that it is destruction of habitat that causes their problem.:confused::confused:

[rancor_]

On a more serious note ( no purple snake stuff), and from what was mentioned about the Hogg's boas, could careful breeding help bring back a population of endangered varieties of snake? Here we have the Butler's garter which is protected, but if someone involved in that field could breed them could they not be released into the wild to bring up the numbers???
Are there a lot of species that have been dwindled by cross-breeding??
It isnt as easy as just breeding them and letting them go (unfortunately). Captive bred released snakes can carry pathogens that can decimate wild populations.

animals that are bred in captivity to re-stock native habitats are kept very differently from how most of us keep our snakes
This is also true. Just as we condition our captives to accept our preferred food items, they would need to be equipped to recognize their naturally available prey items. Snakes run on almost pure instinct, but behaviors can be learned.

On any afternoon drive I see hundreds of fields, meadows and wooded areas that would be perfect for them, and yet all I read about is that it is destruction of habitat that causes their problem
Those fields could feed a zebra too, but that doesnt mean its where they should be. OR that land is part of a higher predators habitat, like a hawk, skunk, fox, anything that consumes snakes. I have a pond in my backyard, but I've yet to see a frog back there! ;)

And as for the purple snake, if someone bred them, then theyd have to name it. and if we started getting into fancy garter morphs that could generate Regius money, Thamnophis would signify social status rather than anti-establishment herps!:cool::p;)

[anji1971]

Very good points, rancor!!
That's why I need the knowledge of this forum, cause my brain just spits out random thoughts, and i need the expertise of those who actually have the ambition to research!!!!:D:D:D

I still think the purple snakes would be neat though! Even if I would not be one of those with the "social status" to have one!!;):p

[Stefan-A]

On a more serious note ( no purple snake stuff), and from what was mentioned about the Hogg's boas, could careful breeding help bring back a population of endangered varieties of snake? Here we have the Butler's garter which is protected, but if someone involved in that field could breed them could they not be released into the wild to bring up the numbers??? I know this isn't cross-breeding, but it's just a thought that I've wondered about.
Often when a species becomes rare, it's because of destruction of its habitat, competition from other species or predation. In none of these cases the solution would be to increase their numbers, unless it is accompanied by restoration of the habitat or increased pressure on the competing or predating species (or the complete elimination of those species from the area) and even then releasing them would only serve to boost the natural population. (As somebody mentioned, releasing the snakes has its risks as well, and an additional problem is that you would lose a lot of genetic diversity by breeding them in captivity.) We see a lot of similar issues with fish. Releasing enormous amounts of trout in a river where there is a small natural population, does NOTHING to improve the situation of the natural population.

[anji1971]

Sigh..............oh well then, on to the next random, unresearched thought.......:rolleyes:

[drache]

the only captive breeding in order to restock wildlife program that I know anything about is the California Condor program
that was successful
they released four breeding pairs into the Sespe in the early nineties, after there had been none left in the wild for several years
now there are over seven hundred birds
it may not be a good idea to release captive bred snakes, however well prepared into the wild, because it may endanger the health of the existing wild population
it is still a good idea to have strong captive population of threatened species - just in case . . .

[rancor_]

the only captive breeding in order to restock wildlife program that I know anything about is the California Condor program
that was successful
they released four breeding pairs into the Sespe in the early nineties, after there had been none left in the wild for several years
now there are over seven hundred birds
. . .
Canada also helped with wolves in yellowstone, i believe. While it wasnt a genetic exact match, the reintroduction, to my limited knowledge was also a success. so much so, that Mr G.W. is contemplating a cull...
Friends of Animals | Help Stop the Bush Administration’s Latest Debacle: Aerial Gunning of Greater Yellowstone Wolves (http://www.friendsofanimals.org/news/2007/july/help-stop-the-bush-a.html)
Thats what happens when humans intervene in something they have little knowledge and even less control over...

[drache]

thanks for the link
I took a quick look and decided it was too early in the day to get angry

[Stefan-A]

If I remember correctly, the key difference there was that we humans were the cause. We were the "predator" in both cases.

[drache]

I thought of pointing that out
then it occurred to me that we're probably the cause of most animal extinctions, endangerments and habitat destruction
I'm guessing more than 99% of the time
I can't at current think of any case where humans were not at the root of an animal going extinct although I'm certain it has happened
of course when it's a case of human predation there are some places in the world where laws sort of work to keep humans from destroying everything

[anji1971]

Unfortunately, they usually make those laws just a little too late to do any real good. Hmmm...... let's see..........just a few acres left, and everything important is extinct or close to it..........guess we should make it a protected area....??
I would like to see a few more conservation areas around, they are wonderful places and great for educating the young ones!:)

[zooplan]

There are several species only conserved in zoos because protection of thier habitats came late.
T.s.tertrataenia is more common in European terrariums than on San Francisco peninsula yet.

[Stefan-A]

I could be wrong, but I think that the same thing happened with either Rhacodactylus or Phelsuma geckos. More common in the pet trade than in the wild due to habitat destruction.

[zooplan]

This may also match to Natrix tesselata in Germany. When breeding becomes easier as a result of keeping studies, new food recources or tricks of maintenance pet population can grow very fast.

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, I'd really like to get my hands on 1.1 N. tessellata myself, since N. natrix is out of the question due to our stupid local laws.