Running out of tricks, need advice

[Stefan-A]

As some of you know, I've been having problems with an adult(ish) female parietalis that got picky a few months ago. She will only eat worms, scenting doesn't work. Haven't tried starving her for more than four weeks at a time yet. I've managed to get a few mice into her since the end of May and a couple of small fish, maybe one per month average, but I don't see any kind of pattern. Some have been accepted only after dark (none of them recently), and only one scented. Temperatures are dropping and worms will only be available for a few more weeks; can't store them outside or the cold will kill them, can't store them indoors or the heat probably will.

She's fed really well up until this little episode and she looks and acts healthy. Her weight hasn't dropped. Temperatures are correct, so is the humidity.

Obviously this is a concern because of the low nutritional value of worms, especially when it comes to calcium (even if I've dusted the worms and I give calcium lactate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_lactate) with the drinking water), and because they won't be available for much longer. There's nothing wrong with her appetite, she has just become damn picky.

I definitely need more tricks.

[adamanteus]

You said you'd tried 'posting' other foods, didn't you, Stefan?

[Stefan-A]

Edit: Right, "posting". Took a moment before I got what you meant. :) Yeah, I tried that. Didn't work, she avoids the forceps and runs the second she sees them.

[adamanteus]

Just as the last of the worm is in the snakes throat, before she closes her mouth, you delicately place a piece of fish or pinky in, directly behind it....so the swallowing action of the snake continues uninterrupted. It takes a bit of practice but it works well for me.

[Stefan-A]

Indeed, I remembered that trick from before I even got my first snake. Somebody suggested it for a corn that wouldn't eat enough, IIRC.

Hasn't worked for me.

[adamanteus]

Edit: Right, "posting". Took a moment before I got what you meant. :) Yeah, I tried that. Didn't work, she avoids the forceps and runs the second she sees them.

Disguise the forceps, Stefan!:)

[Stefan-A]

What, make a ghillie suit for them? ;)

[adamanteus]

What, make a ghillie suit for them? ;)

Well, basically, yes!:D

[Stefan-A]

Gotcha. Any other ideas? :D I suspect it's not the forceps that freak her out, but the food item. I don't think she's reacted to the forceps themselves or the hook (yes I use one :D ) at all really.

I admit I haven't tried salmon yet. I don't see why it would work any better, though.

[adamanteus]

I think, with patience (and a slow, steady hand) you could master 'posting' Stefan. Stick with it.

[Stefan-A]

I'm sort of running out of opportunities to master "posting", so I'll probably need a Plan B.

[adamanteus]

Worm farm?

[Stefan-A]

Too late to start one, too slow to get the next generation and if I remember correctly, indoor temperatures are too high for the species. Eisenia would do fine, but Lumbricus need lower temperatures, I think.

[adamanteus]

How about brumation? Is she in good enough condition?

[Stefan-A]

She's not skinny, if that's what you mean. Do you mean a full brumation?

[drache]

just until you can get a steady worm supply

[adamanteus]

She's not skinny, if that's what you mean. Do you mean a full brumation?

Brumation would achieve two things...it would tide you through until worms are available again, and it might also trigger her feeding responses when she comes out of it.

[Stefan-A]

Brumation would achieve two things...it would tide you through until worms are available again,Yes, I know. Well, that would be about 7 months from now.


and it might also trigger her feeding responses when she comes out of it.That's something I actually consider, but there are some difficulties finding a place to brumate her. The fridge isn't an option and I'm not sure the temperature in my parents' cellar stays stable enough. I probably already mentioned I tried lowering and eventually shutting off the lighting and lowering the temperature, though not as drastically as in a real brumation.

Now don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the advice, it's just that I've already considered these tricks. :) I'm also glad nobody has suggested force feeding. ;)

[adamanteus]

No, force-feeding wouldn't be appropriate in this instance! If I think of any other tricks/ideas I'll let you know. I still think 'posting' is the way to go....with what little time you have left before the worms disappear!

[Stefan-A]

Just to be clear, I didn't actually consider force feeding. :D I just meant that I'm glad nobody else considered it.

By the way, is it even possible to "starve" a garter into accepting food it has previously refused, or is there a realistic chance that it won't give in?

People have said that it's not uncommon for them to start fasting, especially if they've been over-fed. What kind of energy reserves can they keep, how long do they last?

[anji1971]

If you have a basement that stays cool or a small fridge kicking around you can keep worms for the winter, Stefan. (well, at least most of the winter- I'm sure they are longer where you are than here!) I go outside for the last week or so before it freezes, and catch as many nightcrawlers as I can get my hands on. Then I throw them all in buckets of dirt, and keep them in the corner of the basement where it stays fairly cool. Just make sure to keep the dirt wet and top it up with unfertilized potting soil every couple weeks. Most of the worms live through the winter and a picky eater snake is still happy!! I understand the nutrition is not topnotch with this diet, but while you work on persuading the snake to eat other things it at least keeps her fat and happy:):)

[KITKAT]

I want to interrupt here with a comment that I have long held back.

I do not agree with most members that earthworms are of inferior nutritional value. My land and surrounding area is devoid of any source of fish as a food item for garters. Yet, we have a very healthy population of T sirtalis sirtalis on our property and in the surrounding area.

What are they eating? They have absolutely no access to fish.

In the 60's, when hippies were really deep into the mother earth movement, earthworms were proposed as a human food for areas of the planet where protein was hard to find. Of course for aesthetic reasons, this idea never gained popularity.

But remembering that, I did some searching, and found a number of articles on the nutritional content of earthworms, including the following information:

-------------------------

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0962-8452(20030207)270%3A1512%3C249%3ANCOECB%3E2.0.CO%3 B2-J

ABSTRACT: For the Makiritare (Ye'Kuana) native people of the Alto Orinoco (Venezuela), earthworms (Anellida: Glossoscolecidae) are an important component of the diet. Two species in particular are widely consumed: 'kuru' (Andiorrhinus kuru n. sp.) and 'motto' (Andiorrhinus motto). We analysed eviscerated kuru body proper, and whole and smoked preparations of motto for their content of protein and amino acids, fatty acids and 20 minerals and trace elements. The samples contained large amounts of protein (64.5-72.9% of dry weight), essential amino acids, calcium and iron together with notable quantities of other important elements, indicating that these earthworms contain potentially useful quantities of many nutrients that are critical to the health of the humans who consume them.

----------------------------------

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/NAP/03-085.pdf

A small segment of this article states:


Earthworm meal has an amino acid composition very similar to that of fishmeal and potentially superior to meat meal. Similarly the composition of the lipid component is similar to some fish oils; it is relatively high in ϕ3 polyunsaturated lipids. Therefore they are high quality products that have
the potential to receive premium prices. Earthworm production systems have not been developed where the profitability of the enterprise is determined by the sale of the worm based on its value as a
source of ϕ3 oil, protein meal, or for the value of the castings as a by-product of an oil and meal production system.
There is an increasing need for high quality protein sources for use in intensive industries. Fish meal is unlikely to be able to fill this gap, if anything, ethical issues of extensive fish harvesting are likely
to lead to a decline in the use of fish meal in animal rations. The lipid content of earthworms can vary between 1 and 20% of the dry matter and it also appears that the amino acid composition varies with
worm diet. There is considerable scope to identify or select worms that will maximise these desirable components or to develop feeding regimes to achieve the desired outcome. The integration of waste
utilisation with the production of high quality commercial products is an attractive concept.

----------------------------

Over all, I believe that worms can be a nutritionally balanced meal for garters. I am always happier when my garters eat fish, due to the changes in their elimination which make cage sanitation easier. I do not necessarily believe that pinkie feeding is the better nutrition... although I will note in passing that some of our parasite worries are eliminated by the feeding of mice. But logic tells me that if it were better to eat mice, the garter would have evolved to include that food source as part of their diet. Therefore, my garters have returned, once again, to fish as the staple diet, with worms and pinkies being used to provide variety.

For that reason, I do not feel that a garter which will only eat worms, is a problem, other than the fact that some keepers may have problems getting that food as a year-round source, and the fact that the fecal material put out by that snake will be watery.

This winter, I plan to experiment with keeping worms in my basement, as well as my refridgerator. I'll report my findings in early summer.

[drache]

I keep small quantities of worms in my fridge all the time
they're in a thick styrofoam container, specifically designed for bait worms
it can fit over fifty large worms
the dirt needs to get sprayed from time to time and they need to get fed
they need very little

[anji1971]

[quote=KITKAT;29524]

I do not agree with most members that earthworms are of inferior nutritional value. My land and surrounding area is devoid of any source of fish as a food item for garters. Yet, we have a very healthy population of T sirtalis sirtalis on our property and in the surrounding area.

KitKat, I'm kind of relieved that you wrote this! Since I've been researching the last couple of weeks, i've been trying to find other foods than earthworms for my snake because i keep reading that they aren't the best for them, and now i won't go so crazy trying to make her eat fish and stuff- which, incidentally, she wants nothing to do with!!! What you just posted makes a lot of sense, and my snake does seem pretty healthy. So maybe Stefan, you don't need to worry so much either!:)

[adamanteus]

Stefans problem is not the nutritional value of earthworms, it is that earthworms will be impossible to find in frozen Finland for the next seven months!

[zooplan]

Earthworms are not worse than other food to garters but you´ll have to feed more and get more feces.

[drache]

yup
that is a problem - the worm supply

[Stefan-A]

Thanks, KitKat. Very useful.

However, I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion. Many garter species do include them, or rather, they don't exclude them from their diets. Second, their current situation doesn't give any kind of information regarding the direction of their evolution. Is eating mice becoming more common, or less common? Their strength has been the ability to change food source depending on competition and availability. The specialized rodent eaters don't really have that ability, even if they can take birds. Amphibians are the most common prey, and logic says that one should try to feed them animals that are as close as possible to them in terms of nutritional content. Whichever comes closest, mice or fish, doesn't matter. The point is that worms are very different.

The calcium content is a concern though, even if it appears to me to be easier to supplement than I thought at first. The availability is however a bigger problem. But most of all, it's probably the issue of having a snake change its preferences so drastically, that's unnerving.

[drache]

hm
I wonder whether there is perhaps some nutritional element in worms that could cause a craving type response

[anji1971]

Stefans problem is not the nutritional value of earthworms, it is that earthworms will be impossible to find in frozen Finland for the next seven months!

I know that over here in fairly frozen Canada we have bait shops that sell worms all winter for those who like ice-fishing! Do they have anything like that over in Finland??

[KITKAT]

Thanks, KitKat. Very useful.

Is eating mice becoming more common, or less common? Their strength has been the ability to change food source depending on competition and availability.

I guess part of my thoughts may not have been expanded enough, so I will briefly add...

There are almost NO amphibians on my property. There are surely no fish. There are mice, but they are Meadow Voles, which have a rather large skull for all but the larger garters.

Yet, we have a very healthy and abundant supply of garter snakes.

And given where I find them, they are eating worms as their primary food source.

I did catch a female gravid garter in a mouse nest once... but in captivity she refused to eat mice, including the baby Voles. She was dedicated to eating worms, and I had to teach her to eat fish.

Just a bit more info about what caused my thoughts... but I am not here to argue this thought as any kind of gospel. ;)

[brandon0133]

my snakes have not been eating sense i got them,,well i read on here somewhere to rub a fish on the pinkies and then put them in,,well it worked perfectly,,,i put the fish down and put the pinkie ontop of the minnow,,,within 5 mins the snake at the minnow and the pinkie,,im so proud

[Stefan-A]

A little update: She won't eat salmon. Tried it.

[Lori P]

So she's still being stubborn, huh? Wonder how much it would cost to send you a ton of worms to get her thru your winter??

[Stefan-A]

It would probably be easier to just send her to you. ;)

Yeah, she's still stubborn. Maybe live pinkies would do the trick.. Although, my sister wouldn't approve and I like being alive. ;)

[Lori P]

Well, Stefan, if we have to chose between you and the snake.... ;):D

[Stefan-A]

..you would choose the snake. I know. ;) :D

[enigma200316]

..you would choose the snake. I know. ;) :D


I would rather have your personality in the mix, and not the snake's Stefan...........:)

[Stefan-A]

Well, the snake definitely has a worse temper, but I think I'm just as picky. :D

[enigma200316]

Well, the snake definitely has a worse temper, but I think I'm just as picky. :D


yes, but I haven't seen the snake be funny, caring, or as picky as you have, I mean the snake just won't eat, but you won't let any one or anything stand in your way.......I guess anyway..............:D

[brandon0133]

i got three more snakes today,,lol

[Stefan-A]

Yet another update. She hasn't eaten anything for three weeks, going on four. Could she really be stupid enough to starve to death by refusing to eat anything but worms?

She still seems as healthy as ever. Maybe a bit more active and alert.

[Cazador]

Hey Stephan,

I've been reading through your thread, and I just had a male T.s. pickeringii go through the same thing. He ate very poorly for about 5 weeks, but fall was coming, and he was also courting a female. I kept offering food, and he eventually snapped out of it. I would have put him into brumation, but I brumated him out of cycle. He went into the fridge in about May and came out in about late August. I suspect you've already raised the temp to around 28-29C?

You may end up having to put yours down into brumation, but if you don't want to, you'll have to offer other food items. In another thread, I recently mentioned sprinkling water into the food/water dish to excite the snake. As I recall, you used to offer some sort of small fish. I forgot what kind. Try threading some thin fishing line through one of those fish, and give it some motion while you're sprinkling water into the dish. Motion really makes any food item more attractive.

I know you're not a fan of it and would probably opt for brumation over it, but force feeding can "reset" a snake's appetite. I don't exactly understand it, but it's as if they forget how good it is to eat, and once they get the taste in their mouths, they're good to go again. Strange, but it works and isn't as difficult as you might imagine.

If this isn't an option for you, and you still don't want to put the snake down, you might consider offering a live amphibian. It's a decision you'll have to weigh... the possibility of parasites vs. weight loss. It depends on how desperate you become, but they're really energy-rich and loaded with lipids.

Rick

[Stefan-A]

The temp is 25-26 degrees, I better raise it then..?

Can't think of any alternative food items apart from different kinds of fish and rodents, that I could get a steady supply of. Ethically, I have no qualms about feeding it live food, including amphibians and mammals, since it might actually be necessary. The problem is that finding them is not so easy. Getting hold of a suitable amphibian might be a problem, I don't know if it could stomach a Cynops sp., since they're mildly poisonous. Haven't seen any clawed frogs anywhere in years. Parasites, well, the lesser of two evils, I guess.

The temperature in my parents' potato cellar shouldn't drop below 4-5 degrees, but isn't it still a bit low for safe brumation..?

Force feeding.. I'd definitely need some guidance and I don't mean over the net or through videos. I've necked a few adders and grass snakes before, but I've never tried to get them to swallow anything.

[Cazador]

Personally, I brumate at just over 4C (about 40F). I've also seen literature where other labs use 4C for up to four months, so no worries there. I imagined that you might have a pet store nearby where you could buy a single salamander or frog for scenting/feeding? If not, the flopping fish in shallow water or the moving dead fish on fishing line might be your next best option.

Also 25-26C is fine for everyday living, but I'd bump it up just temporarily to see if you can get through this before you commit to brumation.

[Stefan-A]

Got the temp up to 28 degrees. That really got her active.

She also attacked the mouse I offered her. Not a feeding response, though.

[Cazador]

Bummer. If a finnicky (not Finnish) snake doesn't hold onto its food during the first strike, it usually doesn't take it at all during that attempt. The temp/activity levels sound promising, though. Best,

Rick

[Cazador]

Mike (Garterking) mentioned something on another thread that might work well for you, Stephan. Try presenting the food when your snake is actively prowling its cage. Sometimes "timing" can be a real issue with finnicky eaters. Maybe they'll only eat in the morning, midday, evening, or night. The activity levels might be a clue. Hope this helps.

[Stefan-A]

I don't know, the only time I haven't tried is just before sunrise.

[Cazador]

You know what they say, "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again." Let the snake's activity levels be your guide. Then include some of the other tricks in your arsenal ;). Cheers.

[Stefan-A]

Trout is getting a lot of tongue-flicks right now, but no success yet.

[Stefan-A]

Got it to strike a strip of trout and hold on. The snake started chewing on the piece, but decided to spit it out after about 10 seconds.

It's now 5 weeks since its last meal. Shows no interest in mice, but at least trout gets a lot of tongue-flicks..

[anji1971]

Sounds promising, Stefan! Maybe the stubborn little thing will finally get hungry enough to eat!;) Have you tried salmon?

[anji1971]

Sorry, just read through the last few pages of the thread -- you have tried salmon!
Guess we'll just keep hoping on the trout, then!:)

[Cazador]

How frustrating. It may sound like I'm crazy, but try sprinkling A FEW sugar crystals on the fish next time. I've done so on meat, and my snakes have gone nuts. Also, even if the snake doesn't swallow the fish, some of the sugar may dissolve in the saliva and provide calories indirectly.

Yes, I'm really stretching, here, but I would have already taken the other route (force feeding) or decided for brumation.

Rick

[Stefan-A]

Brumation.. Should probably have switched off the heat, instead of turning it up. :rolleyes: The question is, which of the remaining tricks is the best. I'm not convinced force feeding will reset it, I did manage to sneak down a small scented mouse and that didn't do it.

So it's either sugar or brumation, and it has already been 5 weeks off feed, but at normal temps. So, how fast can you get it from normal to brumation under these conditions?


I'm really getting curious about how far it's willing to take the hunger strike.

[Snaky]

If it hasn't eaten for 5 weeks at normal temperature, you can prepare brumation immediately. I do about 1,5 week to lower temperature and light duration. But I've recently heard from Fons (Thamnophis) that he tried several things, from overnight brumation to slowly lowering the temperature and he didn't see any difference. Still, I would go for the slow method :)

[Stefan-A]

If I shut off the lights and heating now, would you say it's okay to brumate her in about a week?

How long should the brumation last?

[Snaky]

I always decrease light/heat on a day by day basis. But within a week, that should be no problem.

For juveniles, I only brumate them 4 weeks. And that really the minimum for an adult, I would more say 6 weeks. Of course, for a healthy adult snake, 2,5 months or even more is no problem.

[Cazador]

If you were planning to do a brumation with a snake that eats regularily, then I'd decrease the light and temp a lot slower, but as Fons told Hans, there are no adverse effects when you simply pull the plug on the heat and light all at once. I'd give them at least three days before putting it in the fridge, and I'd insulate the hibernaculum (wrap it in a blanket or something) to help slow the temperature change. Obviously, this isn't the normal way, but most people don't have a snake that hasn't eaten in 5 weeks, either.

By way of comparison, I've had snakes out of brumation for a month. Then I've brought them right back down to 4C for 24 hours without any acclimation and had no adverse effects.

[brandon0133]

id force feed them,,done that with a corn i have

[Stefan-A]

If you were planning to do a brumation with a snake that eats regularily, then I'd decrease the light and temp a lot slower, but as Fons told Hans, there are no adverse effects when you simply pull the plug on the heat and light all at once. I'd give them at least three days before putting it in the fridge, and I'd insulate the hibernaculum (wrap it in a blanket or something) to help slow the temperature change. Obviously, this isn't the normal way, but most people don't have a snake that hasn't eaten in 5 weeks, either.

By way of comparison, I've had snakes out of brumation for a month. Then I've brought them right back down to 4C for 24 hours without any acclimation and had no adverse effects.
Thanks.



The temperature where I plan to keep it should stay between 4 and 7.5 degrees and I expect it to fluctuate a little (but still stay within that range), which is why I'm less than enthusiastic about having to brumate it. If we get exceptionally cold weather during the next couple of months, I might have to cancel it.



I have a bad feeling that with my luck, bringing her out of brumation won't be necessary.

[Cazador]

Hey Stephan,

I'm a bit relieved that you're opting for brumation. I think you'll find that bringing them out of brumation is much less stressful than putting them in... at least for you ;-). Cheers,

Rick

[Stefan-A]

One question about the substrate in the hibernation cage: Is peat okay? It doesn't really absorb humidity from the surrounding air, unlike paper towels, and its low pH should make it a harsh environment for bacteria.

[Cazador]

Personally, I've never used it in a hibernaculum, but I've dampened and used it in the main cages to provide a moist area for young ones. One thing about hibernacula is that the inner walls become damp. Maybe it's from the respiration/condensation. I normally use paper towels and check on them about once a month to make sure things are clean, dry, and no mold is growing anywhere. Even though the snakes won't have faeces, they'll still eliminate uric acid crystals, so you have to clean once in a while. That's one reason why I recommend paper towels, but I realize that there are always other ways to do things. It'll be neat to hear the experiences from other people on this. Hope that's of some use,

Rick

[Stefan-A]

How long would you say it's safe to brumate it? It's going to be close to six weeks without eating. What's the safer solution, hibernate it for a "short" while and hope that it resets the snake, or hibernate it until I can find worms again?

Don't worry, I'm not going to hold you responsible if anything happens to the snake. ;)

[Cazador]

I put adults down for about 4 months, and yearlings down for three (if at all). I don't brumate snakes in their first year at all. Since yours has already gone for 6 weeks at normal temps, I'd only put it down for another 4-6 weeks. Be sure to weigh it first, so you can check on how it's doing in a few weeks.

[Stefan-A]

Okay. It'll come out of hibernation some time around New Year. Works for me. :)

Next time something like this happens, I won't have to ask. :D

[Stefan-A]

I put her down today. Lets see how long it takes before something goes horribly wrong.

[anji1971]

Stefan, I'll do the positive thinking for you, so hopefully it will work!!:D

[Cazador]

Good job Stephan. I'd like to tell you the time will fly by, but it rarely does without others running around. Maybe it'll free up some time for those other projects, though. Best,

Rick

[adamanteus]

Stefan, don't worry, she'll be fine. She knows what she's doing!;)

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, yeah. It's just something I do. If I pretend to expect the worst, everything always turns out okay. :D

[Stefan-A]

So now she's been in hibernation for a week. The temperature is a bit high, at 9.5 degrees Celsius, due to exceptionally warm weather. Trying to lower it a bit.

She's quite lethargic, but still responsive. She doesn't move around, but she did flick her tongue and kept an eye on me when I checked up on her today.

[Zephyr]

Just as the last of the worm is in the snakes throat, before she closes her mouth, you delicately place a piece of fish or pinky in, directly behind it....so the swallowing action of the snake continues uninterrupted. It takes a bit of practice but it works well for me.
I did this with my big boy Cremepuff and now he takes them without scenting or any other tricks. :D

[Stefan-A]

Two weeks. Still doing great, same as a week ago. :)

[Stefan-A]

Just a couple of days left until she's been under for 4 weeks. I just moved her to a spot that's somewhere between room temperature and brumation temperature.

Still a couple of questions. How soon after moving her to the terrarium (room temperature) is it okay to turn the heat lamp on and how soon is it okay to try feeding?

[Snaky]

You may do it instantly to the good temperature. I do it in about 1 week.

If she's at the correct temperature, wait a day or 4 and try offering her food, I'll be doing that :) .

[Stefan-A]

Okay, thanks. :)

I guess this is one of those processes that you have to be guided through once. :D Next on the list is probably force feeding. ;)

[Snaky]

Let's hope you won't need it ;)

[Stefan-A]

I agree, this one's a biter. ;)

[Stefan-A]

..anyway, she's back in her terrarium and at normal temperature. She's in perfect shape and moving around as if nothing ever happened.

Didn't have the patience to wait a couple more days, it just seemed so arbitrary.

[adamanteus]

Fingers crossed for an early feeding, Stefan! Not long now 'till I start to warm mine up. I'm worried of course... it's always a stressful time!

[Snaky]

I hope that it works out, Stefan. Usually mine don't take food directly after being at the correct temperature, that's why I wait a couple of days...

[drache]

keepng my fingers crossed
and thumbs squeezed

[Stefan-A]

Five days, still no luck. She will inspect the food item, but won't eat it. Then she just sits there beside it for a few minutes, before crawling away and curling up somewhere else.

[adamanteus]

I'm just warming up my bunch.... I'm not even going to attempt to feed them for a week. Even then I won't be surprised if they refuse food for another week.

[Stefan-A]

Well, if she survived six weeks without eating and another 4 in brumation, she'll probably do fine for another two.

But she sure is a real pain in the ***.

[adamanteus]

I hate it when they won't eat. I'm still struggling with the little pickeringii female. I'm sure she'll just die quite soon. There seems to be no will to live!

[Stefan-A]

Sorry to hear about your pickeringii, James. :(

[Sputnik]

One of my adults hasn't eaten for weeks while the other one has been fine. It's been at least two months since she's had anything at all.
She seems fine otherwise but I did try force feeding her last night because I thought, I simply had to try and make sure she's take something. She was not impressed and I felt quite sorry for her so left her in peace after a few minutes without having managed to get her to eat.

The two tetrataenia are mere slithers, too. Very, very occasionally they will nibble on a bit of worm but really not enough to make them grow. It's so sad when you just can't get them to accept anything :(.

[adamanteus]

My tetrataenia are eating like it's going out of fashion! It's just the pickeringii that's giving me grief!

[Stefan-A]

My tetrataenia are eating like it's going out of fashion! It's just the pickeringii that's giving me grief!
Same thing with mine. It won't eat fish, which is what the previous owner was feeding it, but that little piece of string will chug down entire pinkies like there's no tomorrow.

The vagrans twins are even better, they will strike the pinkie with force. I know I will have to name them something that describes their appetite sooner or later. ;)

[adamanteus]

Same thing with mine. It won't eat fish, which is what the previous owner was feeding it, but that little piece of string will chug down entire pinkies like there's no tomorrow.

The vagrans twins are even better, they will strike the pinkie with force. I know I will have to name them something that describes their appetite sooner or later. ;)

I'd like to see an up-to-the-minute pic of your vagrans, Stefan.

[Stefan-A]

Please elaborate.

[adamanteus]

I just mean a recent photo.

[zooplan]

oh yes, a new photo!
:rolleyes: I guess, I remember, I´ve seen some questions for new photos here before:D

[Stefan-A]

Took them 8 days ago.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/extra/tevtwin1.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/extra/tevtwins1.jpg

As you can see, one of them was about to shed.


Feeding day tomorrow. ;)

[adamanteus]

Thank you. They're nice, Stefan.

[anji1971]

Very nice pics!!
As for your non-eater, it sounds like if she keeps going this way, she may just be stubborn enough to hold out until spring when you can find worms for her again!!:D
I can't believe how long she's gone without eating!

[salzar]

beautiful snakes yaaaaaa... cant wait till spring for mine!!
bye
michelle

[Stefan-A]

Damn.

Okay, so I did a little experiment. I put pieces of trout in the old plastic box I used when I was feeding her worms. Apparently she recognized it, probably by smell, but she wouldn't eat anything out of it. She inspected the box thoroughly and the fish, but didn't touch it. Now she just sits there. I'm assuming that she would eat, but unfortunately her preferences haven't seemed to change.

Or am I jumping the gun here?

[adamanteus]

It certainly sounds as though a worm might just trigger her feeding responses. Is it just to cold over there to find one?
It's been pretty mild here for a couple of days, so I was able to find worms today.

[Stefan-A]

It's below freezing at the moment and it's supposed to be getting colder these next few days. Either way, she's not getting another worm. Ever.

[Stefan-A]

Okay, so what is the proper way to hold the head of the snake, so that it is still able to swallow? I know how to restrain the head, but that's easy, I've just never tried to get a restrained snake to swallow something.

Just getting prepared here. :) Maybe I should get a pinkie pump? ;)

[adamanteus]

I had a pinky pump, but I threw it away..... They're not able to properly masticate the pinky before ejecting it from the tube. Thus resulting in a sudden 'shot' of food which explodes into the snakes' throat at an uncontrollable rate. Also, they only expel a fraction of what you put in, it seems to take two pinkies to 'charge' the pump. All in all, they're rubbish.

If you hold the snake directly behind the jaw bones, between your thumb and fore-finger, whilst restraining the body with the remaining fingers, you can then have one hand free for opening the mouth and manipulating the food item. It's not really too difficult.

[Stefan-A]

Really fun to know what to do in theory, but not having anybody around to actually show you how to do it. I didn't have any mice thawed right now, but I had to test it without sticking anything down its throat. Probably didn't do the snake any favors by doing so. I just don't get how it's going to be able to swallow the food item if I'm holding on to its head and really preventing it from bending it out of my grip.

Damn this newbieness.

[Lori P]

I couldn't do it alone. I had to have hubby hold, and I pushed the food in. Can someone help you? Want me to run right over?? :-)

[Stefan-A]

I'm used to doing things alone. :) My big sister did volunteer to help hold the snake, but I can control it better with one hand and alone. I just don't get how the food item is going to get past the point where my fingers are holding on to the head/neck of the snake.

Well, at least it didn't poop on me or musk me. ;)

[drache]

Stefan
this is harrowing
I see this in my near future - with much trepidation
and I have cop-out options that you don't
is your big sister willing to push the food in, so you can focus on the snake?
I did that with Jeff when I had to pump flagyl down my big king's throat
the stuff kept clogging the syringe . . .

[Stefan-A]

No, she basically offered to hold on to the butt end of the snake. :) She's not used to snakes in any way, so I can't really count on her holding on if it starts to squirm. The one-handed grip is pretty much textbook stuff, it's not hard to do with a snake this size.

Anyway, it's pretty much trial and error right now. Not much fun for the snake.

4:17 AM, insomnia isn't fun either.

[drache]

good luck
I guess single-handed is easier on a garter, than on a 5'+ king
and you don't have to keep shaking a syringe while you're holding it, so that should make it easier

[Stefan-A]

Then again, I guess you don't have to worry as much about accidentally hurting a 5' king as you do with a 3' garter.

[drache]

very true
as I said - I don't envy you at all

[Stefan-A]

She just ate. On her own.

[drache]

hey
yay
congrats!!!!!!
what did she eat?
happy new year all over

[Stefan-A]

hey
yay
congrats!!!!!!
what did she eat?
happy new year all over
One tiny two week old mouse. :) Took another two out of the freezer in case I could get her to eat more.

[anji1971]

WHOO-HOO!!! Thank goodness!:):)
I've been following all this force-feeding stuff with absolute horror. I hope I never have to do that!
Guess she figured that with all the restraining and stress it was just better to eat. She's probably thinking, "Damn. He won. I could have made it another month....!":D

[drache]

rodent
well that's promising
I wonder whether you're better off trying again right away, while she's still got the taste, or waiting 'til she realizes that it wasn't quite enough

[Stefan-A]

WHOO-HOO!!! Thank goodness!:):)
I've been following all this force-feeding stuff with absolute horror. I hope I never have to do that!
Guess she figured that with all the restraining and stress it was just better to eat. She's probably thinking, "Damn. He won. I could have made it another month....!":D
Eactly what I was thinking. :D But I'm not going to claim victory quite just yet.

[Snaky]

Good to hear Stefan and hopefully she'll keep on eating from now on...
Fingers crossed :)

[Lori P]

YES!!!!! I'd say that's a HUGE step in the right direction!!! Good job Stefan!!!

[adamanteus]

That's great news, Stefan.:D She must have read all your posts about force-feeding!

[Stefan-A]

Well, she did get a bit of a preview yesterday. ;) "Holy crap, this guy doesn't know what the hell he's doing, I better start eating before he kills me by accident."

She hasn't touched the other two mice, apparently I was a bit too slow. Or maybe she's just planning to stay off feed until worms are available again. ;) :D (Spoiler: They'll never be available ever again.)

[Lori P]

Well, she also had an empty tummy for a really long time; so maybe one mousey filled her up for now. :-)

[Stefan-A]

I suspect that, too. But I don't know if it works that way.

I think I have a paper on that subject somewhere.

[tikichick]

YAY! I'm glad she ate for ya!

[Stefan-A]

Still hasn't eaten anything else.

[drache]

give it some time
she may need to digest a little

[Stefan-A]

Yeah. As far as I can tell, she hasn't pooped since her first meal, I don't really expect her to eat again before that happens.

But I hope that she will.

[drache]

well, you know now that she's not entirely opposed to the idea of eating pinky

[Stefan-A]

The first mouse (crawler?) eaten voluntarily (unscented) in about 4 months.. ;) Well, her next chance is on thursday or friday.

[adamanteus]

her next chance is on thursday or friday.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, Stefan.:)

[Stefan-A]

Still no luck. I guess it's back to square one, minus the option of brumating her.

[drache]

you offered and she didn't go for it?

[Stefan-A]

That's right.

[drache]

you've got a very pig-headed snake

[Stefan-A]

That would be an understatement. :D I can't blame anybody but myself either.

I still wonder if it could be starved into submission. ;)

[Stefan-A]

..and guess which snake just decided that shedding would be more fun than eating. :rolleyes:




ps. I can smell all you veterans sitting at home thinking, "How the hell do these bloody newbies always manage to turn a simple problem into a complete cluster****?" :D

[Lori P]

... and will I ever stop feeling like a newbie??!! Some day I hope to answer more questions that I ask but it sure won't be anytime soon!!!

[Stefan-A]

You just need to start answering all the questions you know the answers to, Lori. All the really basic questions pop up every now and then. And if you don't know them, find out the answer before somebody beats you to it. ;)

Guess which snake just ate again. :D She should be shedding any day now, her eyes have cleared up again.

She's also been basking a lot lately.

[drache]

well there you go

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, I should probably let this thread die already. :D

[adamanteus]

How about a new thread...."The Tricks Worked, Don't Need Advice"!:D

[Stefan-A]

Wouldn't be entirely true, though. I always need advice. :D But if you want, you can always rename this one to "Tricks worked, thanks for all the advice." ;)

What's Rick doing these days, by the way?

[adamanteus]

No word from Rick in a long while. I guess his studies keep him pretty busy.

[Stefan-A]

According to his profile, he's been active today.

[Stefan-A]

Holy crap, you wouldn't believe the feeding response she just displayed. :D I opened the door to the terrarium and within a millisecond she absolutely launched herself halfway out of the terrarium towards the fish I had in my hand. :D I tried to push her back inside the terrarium, but she just kept coming at me. :D I wish I had been filming it, it just looked so damn funny. :D

:D

[drache]

talk about a turn-about - wow!
great fun for you, huh?

[Lori P]

That's AWESOME!!! Must be something in the air lately, snakies are coming back to life!!

[Stefan-A]

So the solution was to brumate the girl. :) I have to remember to thank James and Rick for the advice. And everybody else who tried to help. :)

Oh I better start counting days again. 90-120, right? :D

[adamanteus]

That's great news, Stefan! Watch out you don't get eaten!:D