What

[Ribbon Man]

Do you guys think? I made this one awhile ago and... What do you think?
freewebs.com/sparkyleo

[CrazyHedgehog]

Do you guys think? I made this one awhile ago and... What do you think?
freewebs.com/sparkyleo
hey not bad, some of the info is not strictly accurate,
my adult garter eats full mice not pinkies for example,

and why should I avoid goldfish? (Please anyone.. i have fed goldfish in the past, why should I avoid them?)

and the first page is unreadable (white text on white-ish back ground) but otherwise not bad for a starting point for people to start keeping garters...

[Ribbon Man]

Goldfish are one of the worst to feed... If you check there scales come off really easlie, and are extremely slimy... Which equals B1 defency.

[Thamnophis]

There are many people who feed their fiseating snakes only goldfish without problems.
In theory you will have to add Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) when you feed them.
But I know from people who never added any vitamins and gave their Thamnophis only goldfish. Has never given any problem.

I do not know what wisdom is in this case.

I personally do not feed them. But when I would feed them, I would give them as a part of a bigger assortment of foodanimals. Never would this be the only food they would get.

[KITKAT]

It is my understanding that goldfish can be toxic due to the chemical that makes them orange. Apparently this chemical can build up in the snake... so it is not just a problem with thyaminase... at least that is what I have been told...

I did feed my FL Blue garter goldfish, but always bought the white ones for this reason... and I also fed minnows and Chubs, as well as nightcrawlers. Variety of foods is always better than feeding one thing continuously, due to the different nutrition in various foods.

[Cazador]

Hi all,
I read this post a while ago and wanted to respond, but I lost track of which thread it was in :o. They say the mind is the first thing to go :). I'll give a more thorough answer later. Maybe I'll do a write-up on it since it's such a common question. The short answer involves thiaminase enzymes, and the concentration of thiaminase enzymes in an organism determines their pathogenicity. There's a wide variety of effects that thiaminase exposure can produce, ranging from diminished growth to sterility and even death. Individual variation and concentration play a role in determining why one organism may succomb while another (eating the same diet) appears healthy.

The scales aren't toxic, and the pigments that cause goldfish to be orange are called carotenoids. Some people actually supplement their pet's diet with carotenoids, xanthanoids, porphyrins, and flavinoids to bring out more vivid coloration. They're not toxic unless they reach impractically high levels. I'll write more later,
Rick

[Thamnophis]

I never knew that goldfish were artificially coloured!

[Sid]

Goldfish aren"t artifically colored. The color is totally natural.

I have been raising them in a garden pond for a number of years. As hatchling they are a dark green coloration, I suppost for hiding. As they mature the color turns to a bright orange naturally.

Sid

[KITKAT]

I'd like to see that explanation, Cazador!:D

[Cazador]

Yes, their color is natural, but I was saying that people "enhance" their natural coloration by supplementing the diet of a variety of organisms with carotenoids, etc. It "brightens" their natural colors. Goldfish, like all fish, have cells that are genetically programmed to reflect a certain range of colors at maturity (chromaphores and melanophores), but diet has a lot to do with whether or not they'll be able to (and how intensely they will) express that coloration.

Carotenoids are made by plants (aquatic and terrestrial). The carotenoids are eaten by zooplankton where they become concentrated (they're lipophyllic). They accumulate at each higher level in the food web, and not coincidentally, they're added to almost every flaked fish food. If you see "xanth..." as an ingredient, it's providing the material to enhance yellows and browns; "cyan..." enhances blues & greens; shrimp or "carotenes" enhance red, orange, yellow; "porphyrins" normally enhance green, but can become red (depending on their oxidation state); "flavinoids" provide blue, red, and purple and so on.

I've had direct experience with this phenomenon during research toward my PhD in Biological Sciences. I've attached two pictures of fish I've raised that show how profoundly diet can influence coloration. Remember, most people would consider both of these fish to be "naturally" red & blue during reproduction, but diet and genetics both play major roles. Look at the photo gallery for more details on their dietary differences. This is the same phenomenon that causes flamingos to be whitish in captivity (unless they're supplemented with dietary carotenoids) and pink in the wild.
Rick


http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/a7574_1722.jpg

[sschind]

Rick, or anyone else

what are some of the better, practical, sources of dietary carotenoid supplements. I've been gut loading the crickets for my tomato frogs with a "color enhancing" fish food and with dried krill. I probably don't do it as much as I should so right now my frogs are more orange than red, although D. guineti do not normally get as red as D. antogilli and they are still not full grown. Anyway, is there anything else that works? Any powdered supplement or anything that can be dusted on crickets. I know Kent used to make a product for birds called "radiance" or something like that that was supposed to help color animals up but I have not been able to locate it through any of my distributors and I have never thought about it when I am online.

thanks for any ideas.

steve

p.s. if anyone else is into frogs and knows where I can find some cbb babies of Discophus antogilli I would be eternally gratefull. These frogs are #1 on my species to acquire list and have been for a long long time. I haven't seen them for sale in about 5 years and the last time I did I was a little hesitant to pay $100.00 for a baby frog.

[Cazador]

Hey Steve,

Argent makes a powdered product called "Cyclop-eeze" that has a very high density of carotenoids. It's what I use in an attempt to bring out the "reds." I'm sure there are many places to order it, but here's one source (Cyclop-eeze (http://www.jehmco.com/PRODUCTS_/FISH_FOODS_/Cyclop-eeze/cyclop-eeze.html)). Just in passing, I noticed some "color enhancing products" at Pet Zoo the other day, but I didn't even stop to read the labels. Therefore, I don't know if they're gimicks or the real thing. I'll take a better look and get a name brand next time I'm there. Cheers,

Rick

[sschind]

Ah yes, the Cyclop-eeze. I should have thought of that. I had some of the wafer stuff but none of the fish I had would eat it. I couldn't even get my African Cichlids to take it and they'll eat lint. I think I just fed it to the crickets to get rid of it but I didn't use it specifically as a gut load. Maybe I'll get another can when I go to get fish again.

Thanks

[Cazador]

You can either dust it on the outside or cram it in the mouth of a dead feeder fish. You can also slit open a pinkie (or strip of caribou meat if you prefer ;)) and put it in the middle before offering the food to your snakes. I only do it about once a month.