Peeling Belly scales....

[Jake Dubz]

Hey guys-
Theres been something about my snake thats been bothering me the last week or so- It seems his belly scales are "peeling" like theirs a clear scales that are coming off. If this normal shedding?? could it be the fact he's gotten fatter since being captive and he's getting larger? or is it something like lack of nutrients. he sits in his water dish allot, could this be doing something??? ( heard pythons get messd up from too much moisture) Thanx allot guys- i'm kinda concerned about this, only about 3 have come off in random spots of his body... but they're all kinda starting to it seems:confused:

[adamanteus]

Hi Jake. No, it's not normal, and it's not an overweight issue. Is there any indication that he is about to slough? Have his eyes been blue etc? If not, I would guess that it is the beginnings of a skin/scale problem, probably caused, as you guessed, by spending long periods of time in his water bowl. Permanent wet conditions can cause scale rot in Garters, which is very nasty.

You need to look at the reasons why he might be in the water too much. Is the temperature too high for him? Does he have mites? Is the substrate dirty or of an unsuitable material? Are you using some form of cleaning agent that might be irritating his skin?

You should maybe think about going right back to basics here, Jake.....the most obvious things can be the easiest to overlook. Either way I wouldn't want to ignore this problem for long.

[GrapefruiTgirl]

Glad you mentioned this, Jake. My garter snake also has a few belly scales which have clear scales. If I leave them, they ultimately work their way off, as they are barely attached.
I figured they were leftovers from a shed; when/where I found her initially, there was a shed skin nearby, which was not one big uniform skin, but was missing bits and pieces here and there. I now see why.
For the record, my snake spends relatively little time in the water; she goes in for a dip occasionally, and drinks, but rarely sits in the water for more than a minute, usually less. Her tank's humidity is near the level of my home, which isn't very humid on average, and her skin otherwise looks very healthy.

I have removed a number of the clear scales, when they are kinda half-off, and I think she is nearing shedding time, so I look forward to updating this if/after she does, and also learning why this is, particularly if it is bad.

[GrapefruiTgirl]

I should have mentioned too, she was gravid when I found her (I just thought she was 'chubby' but I found 8 or 10 little snakies in her tank one morning), and so she is thinner than she was when I found her. I thought this also may have had something to do with it, as her skin is slightly looser, particularly at the abdomen, since she gave birth.

[adamanteus]

Sasha, it sounds as though your snake had a rather unsuccessful shed last time. Next time she sheds check that the skin is complete and let us know the outcome. I rather suspect that your situation is different from Jakes', but it's worth keeping an eye on it. Keep us updated, okay?

[GrapefruiTgirl]

Will definitely keep the forum updated, regarding if/when she sheds next.
Sure does seem like an abnormal amount of in-water time for Jakes snake. Any chance perhaps she's trying to drown mites off of herself, or something of that nature maybe?

If it's a skin infection (external problem only) then a warm bath for about 1/2 hour several times per week for several weeks has been recommended on several information sites I have been on lately. The bath would be a diluted Iodophore (Iodine) solution, colored as weak tea would appear. Initially, in the case of mites, the snake would get a plain water bath to
a) drown off the mites
b) let her drink if she wishes
c) let her defecate if she likes.

Be sure to immerse the snakes head a few times too, as the mites are reportedly quick to move up the snakes body to the neck/head when it is in water. Not to worry, she's quite able to go under water for short periods, but please don't drown her ;)

Then draw a new bath with the iodine solution and let her swim in it for a while, making sure she can keep her head above water.

Ref: Melissa Kaplan herp. sites as I recall.

[adamanteus]

Any chance perhaps she's trying to drown mites off of herself, or something of that nature maybe?

That was one of my thoughts on this.

If it's a skin infection (external problem only) then a warm bath for about 1/2 hour several times per week for several weeks has been recommended

I think at this point it might be wise to avoid further bathing, until a diagnosis is reached.

Initially, in the case of mites, the snake would get a plain water bath to drown off the mites. Be sure to immerse the snakes head a few times too, as the mites are reportedly quick to move up the snakes body to the neck/head when it is in water.

Again, I think too much bathing at this point could make matters worse. I would recommend a proprietory mite remedy. (If mites are the problem).

I suspect it may be as simple as cooling the enclosure down to encourage the snake out of the water bowl.

Jake, Sasha...any chance you could both post pictures of the skin conditions? This would be of benefit to others in the future and might help us to identify the problem.:)

[GrapefruiTgirl]

Next time I have my snake out (which **may** be tonight) I will definitely try to get a few pictures of her, both to post in general, plus maybe I can get a shot of one or two of the clear loose scales. Likely it'll be a hard to capture item, they being so small and clear, but will try. We have a digital camera, and it *might* be able to render such an image.
As I speak, I am now quite certain she will be shedding soon. I don't know how soon, as this will be her first captive shed, so I've no experience, but her eyes are rapidly getting milky-bluish, more so each day.

PS - Good idea on avoiding the bathing, of any sort, for Jake's snake until some sort of difinitive diagnosis is made.

(Sorry if this is hijacking the thread -- LOL I'll go start my own after taking some pictures)

[adamanteus]

No hijacking problems here! It will be good to compare the two cases/outcomes!

[adamanteus]

These loose, clear scales.......are they really, really fine (thin) and transparent? More so than regular shed skin? That question to both of you.

[GrapefruiTgirl]

Very much so, like clear scotch 'magic' tape, only not sticky. Very fine, thin clear, like plastic.

[Jake Dubz]

Yea Thanx allot adamanteus- I'm gonna have to play it by ear a lil bit... considering this was a wild snake, i'd rather TRY bathing him more often first and go on with the variables from their. Tonight i'm gonna rip apart his cage and REALLY thoughly clean it to eliminate any threat that theirs some irritant in their. BTW ALL I HAVE for heat in the tank is a screw in blacklight bulb. I didn't imagine this could even possibly harm him, especially since his water dish is at the other corner of the tank... seems a bit of a stretch to think he's too hot..... he's always ice cold when i pull him out the cage- but what do ik right??

[Jake Dubz]

Ok- upon closer inspection, the snake's head is somewhat a differen't tone than the rest of his body so maybe he is "sloughing" but i think it might be the mites, bc i just gave hime a thoughout bath and his behavior is much less "twitchy" he seems a lot more relaxed. Also, if he does have a start to scale rot, would it be a bad idea to temorarily take out his water dish like every other day or so?? nothing drastic.. <----- thats prolly a dumb idea... but i thought i'd shout it out. Also i clean his cage QUITE often after he's soiled it only a few times (cage is RIGHT next to my bed... don't need to see/smell that) So i highly doubt it's from an over dirty cage- BUT i have a feeling some airborne febreze spray may have found its way into the cage since i was cleaning my room a few days back . I'll keep ya posted

[GrapefruiTgirl]

Just an idea from me, while awaiting a more authoritative answer: I would remove the LARGE water dish, if scale rot is becoming a possibllity, and just provide him a much smaller water supply so he can drink it, but not bathe in it. Plus, this will reduce the relative humidity, if humidity is an issue.
Sounds like he did feel a bit better after the bath :)

PS - is it OK to use Black Light as heat/lighting? Wouldn't this be a U.V. overdose?

[Jake Dubz]

yea, thats what I did today while i was waiting for a response (took his water dish out temporarily) also, i left him without light/heat for about an hour or so and he still sat in his usual chill spot, so i think it's more about too much heat/ humidity. I'm using a screw in black light bulb, which seemed fine but i think it might be too much for my enclosure. can you guys recommend another screw in bulb that wouldn't be so "intensely" hot??? possibly just a std screw in fluerescent bulb perhaps??? what do u guys think?

[GrapefruiTgirl]

FWIW I am using a homemade light fixture which holds two blue 25watt aquarium bulbs. The fixture sits outside/above the screened roof of the tank and directs heat downwards onto a flat rock which is raised up to within about 4 inches of the roof. Snaky can get up on the rock if she likes, but can't get dangerously close to the bulbs because the screened roof is between her and them.
It warms the rock, and the ambient temperature in that area is about 30'C. The bottom and other end of the tank goes from about 20'C to 26'C on average, depending on the temperature in my house here.
My tank has lots of ventilation, due to the screened top and one end is screen too. If your tank is too airtight, perhaps it is contributing to a too-high humidity level?
Also, have you got thermometers in there?

[Jake Dubz]

no, i'm getting a thermometer today. Although i think i more or less figured out a solution to this issue. First off i got a MUCH smaller, shallower water dish for daily use, and will only use his bowl for fish feeding. Also I've been turning the light off at night for a few days and it's seemed to change his behavior quite a bit (as far as how fast he's moving n what not) so i think he's allot more comfortable now, although i'll have to get back to u about the scales impovement in a few days

[GrapefruiTgirl]

That sounds good :) it mightbe that he was getting heat stress. Keep us posted!

[adamanteus]

Like I said way back.......too high a temperature makes them lie around in the water bowl.

[Jake Dubz]

OK- It seems that he's alright now, the scales are DRASTICALLY "better" as in their not real soft and pliable like they were, i elevated his smaller water dish to completly eliminate him laying in their, provided him a larger, thicker hideout, WITH a fake plant between the bulb/shelter/water dish. So i'm thinking with scales ok i'm gonna keep his light on during the day and turn it off at night.... don't know if this is "ok" but this ain't Alaska :) it gets dark where i'm from :)

[SnakeFan5]

my snake has the exact same problem and i am soooo worried! i love her to death and a want to know what to do. she shed her skin recently and has been eating a bit less. i have had her out alot lately. and it is just the belly scales they are comming off clear.

[Stefan-A]

That sounds like the last shed was incomplete.

[EasternGirl]

Yes...it sounds like it could be a retained shed. Try a shed box. Use a clear container with a lid...like a storage box from the dollar store. Run a washcloth under very warm water and put it in the box along with about a half an inch of water...make sure the snake can get it's head above water...make sure the water is nice and warm...but not too hot...you are trying to create a humid environment, but you don't want to cook your snake :)....then put the snake in the box and close the lid. Leave the snake in there for about a half an hour. When you take the snake out, if the scales are still there, gently exfoliate with the washcloth. This always works for me when my snakes have problems with sheds. Steve has a video...if he comes on and reads this, maybe he can post the video.