Slow digestion?

[KITKAT]

I have a baby flame that was given to me because he would not eat. I had to force feed him twice, then he started out on minnow pieces. But soon, I switched him to scented pinkie parts, and he ate them well 2 or 3 times. Then he shed, and went on a hunger strike AFTER the shed, not eating for about seven days.

He got eating again when I gave him worm pieces, and again, he started eating well.

But now he has a lump. Not like a tumor or anything... it is a lump like you see right after they eat and the food has moved downward to the stomach and intestines area.

But the lump has not moved... it is above the area of the vent, and looks like a big meal, but he has not pooped, and the lump has not moved.

Do garters get constipated?:eek:

Any suggestions? Should I keep feeding him and assume things will move... or what?

[Howler]

I have to ask. How long has it been since the snake ate and can you possibly take pictures to let us view the issue at hand that's currently concerning you?

--Sam and Nick

[Cazador]

Hey Kitkat,

The lump is somewhat disturbing. Is there anything that the little flame could have swallowed that has become impacted (bedding, accessories, etc)? Whenever snakes stop eating for me, the first thing I check is the temperature of their enclosure. I imagine that you've already done that, and perhaps you've already tried warm water baths. I've found worms to act like a laxative. How about you? If he absolutely refuses to eat, I've heard people trying something like "mouse-lax" or some similar made-up name. They gut load pinkies with mineral oil and feed it to their snakes. These are just a few techniques from least invasive to more so.

Be sure to double-check on the temp of the enclosure floor to ensure that it's not "cooking" his feces before he passes it. I've been trying to re-find a link that talks about fecoliths and cloacoliths, and I'll post it as soon as I can. It "may" help to shed some light.

Rick

[KITKAT]

He is the biggest baby garter I am currently feeding. On 8-18, he ate a worm segment that was about 1/2 inch long. He refused to eat more.

My red sided baby, Trinity, second largest baby in the house, ate eight pieces this size. Gaia, the third largest, ate five.

Tigerlilies babies, which are younger and smaller, are eating two to four pieces that are half that size.

So Sparky ate, and I took pictures showing the two lumps. I'll post it next.

In the meanwhile, to answer your excellent questions...

1. Sparky is in a five gallon tank by himself, with a papertowel floor and a piece of paper towel crumpled up for hiding under. There is a water dish, and that is it. I feed him in a seperate container.

2. When Sparky ate the worm segment yesterday, he had two lumps... the one anterior and the one posterior. Today the posterior lump is slightly bigger. I really suspect a blockage of some kind, but there has been no opportunity to eat anything foreign. The only other thing I can think about is that he age a pinky drumstick on 8-1-07, and perhaps the bone in the leg did not pass(?) After that, he ate three guppies on 8-2, then started spurning all pinkie parts and all fish parts, and will only eat worms, which I have provided on 8-7 (refused to eat, had just shed), 8-11 (ate a small baby worm) and 8-18 (three worm segments eaten). Then I noticed the lump and went ahead and fed one worm segment on 8-24.

His cage temp is in the mid 80's. It is hard to impossible to get a temperature variance with a temp higher than that in one end, because the enclosure is so small.

[KITKAT]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/sparky_082407_019b.jpg

MY BIGGEST CONCERN is that he has not pooped for over a week...

[drache]

have you tried soaking him?
perhaps even add something mildly laxative to the water (not sure what - maybe aloe?)

[adamanteus]

That is worrying, KITKAT. What does the lump feel like?

[GarterGuy]

I agree with Rhea, nothing makes a snake poop out like a good soak in some luke warm water. If it is maybe just constipated, maybe this will help. That does look very worrysome though. If soaking, ect. doesn't do anything, I'd think a vet run would be in order.

Roy

[KITKAT]

That is worrying, KITKAT. What does the lump feel like?

SQUISHY

I am soaking today, and may try some tricks to bump the temp up to the high 80's at one end.

[KITKAT]

Well... Sparky did not make it. I bumped the temp today. It is 89 F in the warm end on top of the paper towel, and 86.5 underneath the towel in the warm end.

The cool end is 84.4 on top of the towel, and 79.1 under the hide. The water is at the cool end.

It's always a challenge to get a temp gradient in such a small enclosure.:(

I set up the higher wattage bulb this morning, and this evening I found Sparky dead under the towel on the warm side of the tank (86.5).:(:(

I guess I may as well get out the dissecting scissors...:eek:

[KITKAT]

P.S.

I did not find a cloacalith.

[Josh]

im soo sorry to hear that
rip sparky

[adamanteus]

Really sorry KITKAT.:( We weren't much help were we?:o What did you find when you opened him?

[drache]

I'm so sorry KitKat
poor Sparky
I am curious as to what you find out

[KITKAT]

Well... the dissection revealed what I suspected, based on the timing of the problem.

It seems that for some reason, Sparky could not digest the mouse pinky legs that I had fed him. There were two "feet" in his gut, at the posterior end of the mysterious "lump". Both were partially digested, but the section from the heel to the toes was intact but soft. Everything upwards from there was mushy poop, the result of the worms he had eaten afterwards.

The poop smelled terrible, as if it had putrified. It had also backed up into the mid-section. I do not know enough about snake anatomy to know whether this backup was in the stomach or not, but I suspect so.

The rest of the organs looked pretty much as I had imagined they would in a healthy snake. (This is my first time dissecting a snake).

So my guess is that cause of death is sepsis of the intestinal contents due to blockage, but I am not sure why the blockage occurred in the first place.

Both Gaia and Trinity also ate pinky legs on the same days as Sparky, and had no trouble with them.:confused:

[Josh]

crap
that sucks.
you did all you can.

[ScimitarX]

So sorry that he didnt make it.:(

[Sid]

So sorry to hear the sad news.

[Lulu Bennett]

KITKAT i am so sorry to hear of your loss but unfortunatly these things happen! you did all you could to make him feel comfortable before he passed. keep your head held high, you will know what to keep an eye out for next time. xxx

[enigma200316]

sorry for your loss KitKat.....:(

[GarterGuy]

Really sorry to hear you lost your little one. Really surprised that pinky legs did all that. Wouldn't think they'd be all that hard to digest. I know all my little guys are munching on them with out any worries. Guess it was just one of those things.:(

Roy

[adamanteus]

Here's a thing...my tetrataenia are on half (lengthways) pinkies now. Yesterday I found a completely undigested pinky foot in the poo. Everything else was gone..spine, pelvis, skull etc. but a perfect foot made it through.

I buy my pinkies frozen and more often than not the feet have already snapped off 'in transit', otherwise I might see this more often? I don't know...just thought I'd mention it.

[Lulu Bennett]

i have started feeding my tetras in quarters lengthways but i havn't found anything like that in their poo :confused:

[adamanteus]

Since I got them they must have eaten 50+ pinkies between the three of them, and I've only seen the one foot, so it's not an everyday occurrence. I just thought it was pertinent to this thread.

[Snaky]

I've never heard of that before... very strange, I always heard they could digest very well.
I'm sorry for your loss.

[KITKAT]

Here's a thing...my tetrataenia are on half (lengthways) pinkies now. Yesterday I found a completely undigested pinky foot in the poo. Everything else was gone..spine, pelvis, skull etc. but a perfect foot made it through.

I buy my pinkies frozen and more often than not the feet have already snapped off 'in transit', otherwise I might see this more often? I don't know...just thought I'd mention it.

I did wonder whether the tendons in the pinky foot were part of the problem, ie harder to digest. Then again, he could have been a slow eater in the first place because something was wrong. I'll never know.

[Cazador]

Kitkat, James,

I think you're both helping to put together a pattern that I though I noticed a while back. As you might remember, I normally feed caribou meat as the primary food source, and I supplement with worms, fish, vitamins, calcium, etc. Anyway, when/if I feed a strip of meat that has a lot of tendons in it, the snakes sometimes regurgitate it. Sometimes they pass it only partially digested. I'm not sure what causes it, but I try to trim these sections of meat off before feeding. Maybe that contributed to the abnormally fast passage and incomplete digestion?

By the way, that was a great, descriptive picture Kitkat. The second lump was clearly beyond the stomach and just anterior to the cloaca. It definitely showed a blockage. Though not certain, I think sepsis is a very reasonable diagnosis. Can you please remind us how old this snake was and how long it had the lump before dying? The age/timing may help others in the future.

This sounds rough, but I just had a female go through a rather difficult birthing process. Some of the young became blocked and died in utero. The female couldn't pass them for nearly a month. After about three weeks, I figured that the female was going to die if nothing was done, so I began to try to manipulate the blocked (and it turned out - partially decomposed) offspring by the equivalent of a deep massage. I never pressed her from the sides for fear of breaking ribs, but I stroked her fairly deeply from the vent anteriorly to separate the young. Sure enough, she began passing the young soon afterward. I want to be clear to everyone that this was a last ditch effort, though. In hindsight, Kitkat, your problem may have been even more difficult. If you were too rough in manipulating the blockage, the bone (undigested foot) may have punctured the digestive tract. Sorry for the rotten outcome, Kitkat.

Rick

[KITKAT]

Kitkat, James,

snip

By the way, that was a great, descriptive picture Kitkat. The second lump was clearly beyond the stomach and just anterior to the cloaca. It definitely showed a blockage. Though not certain, I think sepsis is a very reasonable diagnosis. Can you please remind us how old this snake was and how long it had the lump before dying? The age/timing may help others in the future.

snip

In hindsight, Kitkat, your problem may have been even more difficult. If you were too rough in manipulating the blockage, the bone (undigested foot) may have punctured the digestive tract. Sorry for the rotten outcome, Kitkat.

Rick

I do believe sepsis was the cause of death, due to the horrible odor when I opened the gut. When I increased the temp slightly in response to his problem, I believe this caused increased growth of bacteria and overcame the baby in short time. This little fellow was about eight or nine inches long. I had gotten him as a free (just pay shipping) baby because he would not eat, and Scott was force feeding him to keep him going. Scott was surprised (and so was I) when he started eating after only one forced meal. I think he was about a month old when I got him... and I had him about six or eight weeks.

From feeding of the mouse parts, to death, took about 3 weeks, although the lump was not obvious until the latter part of that time... perhaps ten days before death was the first time it looked suspicious to me.

I believe this baby was too small to safely massage... although I did a very small amount of that on one occasion, about a week before his death.

[Spiritwolf]

Someone should keep a record of all the different problems and experiences, diagnoses, findings, etc, discussed here. Altogether, the information may be very useful in advancing the knowledge of garter snake problems, causes, prognoses, treatments, etc. In many areas there are no vets experienced with snakes or other exotics, and even where there are herp specialists, often breeders see problems that veterinarians don't see, just because breeders usually deal with more animals of a species on a day to day basis.

Just a suggestion, from things I have learned along the way as a lifelong animal lover who is always studying, breeding, showing, etc some kind of creature!

[anji1971]

Hi! I am new here- just registered today. Your post sounds EXACTLY like what my garter was going thru. My kids caught her a couple years ago, and I've been taking care of her since then. The last week she seems sluggish and dull-skinned and there is a lump that looks like a meal, right where your Sparky had it. I've been reading this site all evening and now I am WORRIED, not just because of the lump, but because I just realized I should be doing WAY more with this critter than just feeding her worms every few days! I am such an amateur!!!!:eek:
Is there any more you can tell me on how to deal with this- I know your situation turned out very sadly, but I am hoping you or some others might be able to give me a little advice, maybe we can save Dojo???
By the way, all I've ever been able to get her to eat are earthworms; could it be a nutrition issue as well?

[KITKAT]

Hi Anji!

Is the lump refusing to move, or is it progressing downwards?

Is your snake defecating at all?

How many worms do you give in each meal, and how often do you feed?

How warm is your enclosure at the hot end?

How warm is your enclosure at the cool end?

What are you using for bedding?

What decorations are in the enclosure?

[Odie]

I'm sorry for your loss :(
Hi, form Oregon, Anji :)

[anji1971]

First, thanks for the help, and condolences.
KitKat, to get to your questions- the lump was not moving, in fact it just grew bigger within the last day, however she did poo a bit during a warm soak,and after too. She ate twice a week, usually 6-8 big nightcrawlers, and if I was out in the garden and dug up any sizable worms, i'd throw them in ad lib for her to snack on.
I've been using ReptiBark for substrate, I actually wondered if maybe she swallowed a chunk of that (one of the toads did that once, although they can just spit up their stomach, get rid of it and swallow the tummy back in!!! Lucky toads!) All decorations- climbing stick, hideout, rocks have been there since day
one- 2 years.
I don't know the temps in the cage for sure- this is something new I have learned about, not even sure how to check that accurately.Have a heating pad under one end.
Honestly, KitKat it happened so quickly i don't have a clue exactly what the problem was. She was fine one week, and then she was crappy, i found this site, posted a note, bathed her, massaged her belly lightly, petted her, held her, etc.. but she was gone within 3 days after noticing she was ill. I had never had a SINGLE issue with her before- kids caught her, she was even pregnant at the time-THAT was quite a surprise a couple weeks later!!!!!:eek:
She only had one baby though so it was probably a leftover from her actual litter. She always ate well, had beautiful sheds- kids kept them to show their friends! She never got very tame, I got bit few times! But she was busy and healthy right up til last week. So who knows?????????

thanks again for getting back to me!

[KITKAT]

So sorry I could not help...

sorry you lost her!:(