Some new garters

[boeh]

Hi there

I finally got my new garter snakes. The pics aren't the best, but I think, you see what it is ;-)

Greez,
Cyrill



Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis:
http://www.boeh.ch/schlangen/infernalis01.jpg

Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis:
http://www.boeh.ch/schlangen/infernalis02.jpg

Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis flame:
http://www.boeh.ch/schlangen/sirtalis_flame01.jpg

Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis melanistisch:
http://www.boeh.ch/schlangen/sirtalis_melanistisch01.jpg

[boeh]

Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia:
http://www.boeh.ch/schlangen/tetrataenia01.jpg

Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia:
http://www.boeh.ch/schlangen/tetrataenia02.jpg

Thamnophis sirtalis concinnus:
http://www.boeh.ch/schlangen/concinnus01.jpg

Thamnophis sirtalis concinnus:
http://www.boeh.ch/schlangen/concinnus02.jpg

[boeh]

The actually living inside of this cages:
http://www.boeh.ch/schlangen/terrarium01.jpg

http://www.boeh.ch/schlangen/terrarium02.jpg

[Thamnophis]

Holy macaroni, Boeh... those look very fine! The snakes as well as the terrariums.
Love that flame and the infernalis.
The pics aren't that bad as you think. I think they are very fine!

[reptileparadise]

very, very, very nice!!! both enclosures and garters!
Nice pics by the way, i can imagine its difficult to snap a good shot of the Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis melanistisch...maybe a different background?
nontheless...wonderfull additions to your collection!

[Stefan-A]

Very nice garters and cages. Very.

[Cazador]

What a shipment! I particularly like your infernalis! I've been looking all over for a nice pair to buy. If they turn blue on the underside, you'll have it all. Also, both tetrataenia are awesome! Thanks for sharing.
Rick

[boeh]

thanx at all! i really like those little worms. btw, i tend to call my flame "spark", because it didn't reach for a true flame ;-) he only has red lateral stripes, but he's anyway nice.

@reptileparadise
it's really difficult to catch the melanistic. you're right, i should change the background. maybe something more dark.

sadly, this is my new collection. i had some hard problems with the snakes i already had. they all had cryptosporidium serpentis (i think in english they are called cryptos). some days ago i decided for an euthanasia. :(

Regards,
Cyrill

[Thamnophis]

Hey Cyrill, I know not that much about that disease. I know it is is an internal parasite, but what did you notice on your snakes when they got sick?
Please tell us some more if you can?

Are you not frightend the new snakes get it to?

Fons

[boeh]

Hi Fons

Primarily i didn't notice anything. I do some faeces tests at least once a year (or by initial purchase) and there i became the result: "Cryptosporidium - positiv". Cryptosporidium is a very hard protozoa which is resistent against almost all disinfectant. Just chlorine and other very strong disinfectant can "kill" it. That's one big problem by this disease. Another one is, there's not really a medicine which heal the snakes. We (the mammals generally) are almost resistent against Cryptosporidium (parvum in this case). Only people with a bad immune system can be attacked by these protozoa.

I'm not really frightened about that case. Because the sick ones were placed in another building. I just went to the sick ones if i didn't had to do anything by the new ones. Every fixtures which had contact to the sick snakes were thrown away. I had strict hygiene principles (one way gloves, etc).

The symptoms are:
1. diarrhea
2. puke out the feed
3. "body blow up"


The cryptos attacks the bowel till it can't gathering anything. That's the reason why they puke the feed out. it's propably one of the worst diseases that our snakes can have!

I tried 2 different medicines.

1. Baycox (usually used for porks and company)
2. Agent: zithromax (antibiotics) together with zylexis (immune strongerer)

Both doesn't really make it better. Another problem is, stress make all worser. It isn't possible to inject the medicine without stress. By a Python, it's much more easier, but by our lovely Thamnophis, it's always aligned with a lot of stress. Either with the disinfecting of the cages. Another "stress-point".

In the last 2 weeks they got worser and worser. So i decided for the euthanasia. :(

There's only the sirtalis x flame which make a good impression. Maybe he's getting fit (i don't really believe...), otherwise i'll keep her till the day she looking sick.

Regars,
Cyrill

[Cazador]

Cyrill,
Sorry to hear about these problems, but thanks for sharing your experience. If nothing else, it makes us a bit more aware. We normally associate crypto with contaminated water. Any idea how they contracted it?
Rick

[Thamnophis]

Thanks for explaining, Cyrill.
It's a good thing you keep such strict quarantaine-rules.
I know by experience that this is very neccesary sometimes.
In the Reptile-Zoo where I work we give shelter to all kind of reptiles, also smuggled specimens that are taken away from the smugglers (seized?). This are often wildcaught animals or animals that did not get the right care during long periods. Often they are ill an wak.
We keep a very strict quarantaine-management.
This pays off. Our exhibition-animals do not get the diseases.

[boeh]

I'm not sure how they were contracted (I think by cryptos you never can be sure what it was..). But the most obviously thing is my watercourse that i have installed in one of my cages. I thought i can keep the watercourse clean, but now i know that this isn't possible. it was a bad mistake that i've done! i never would do something like that again.

http://www.boeh.ch/foren/terrarium02.jpg

On the right side you see the water pool. the water was pumped by the stone in the pool. Under the cage were a small aquarium with a pump.

Now, the whole cage is in the garbage and the snakes in bottles :( :(

@Fons
Yes, you're right. It's very importend to keep strict quarantaine-rules. This is the only way to keep those diseas away from the "main snakes".

btw. you work in a reptile zoo? nice? in which one do you work?

[Cazador]

Cyrill,
It's painful to hear that you lost your snakes AND had to throw away that amazing terrarium. How aweful. Ultraviolet light is often used to kill microbes in small water bodies. I don't know how expensive these units are, but they're highly effective. I'll do some research and find out. With your skill and motivation, I'm sure you'll create an even better set-up in the near future for your spectacular shipment of new snakes. When you do, please post pictures for us to admire. Best wishes,
Rick

[Thamnophis]

I always tell people not to use waterfalls in their snake terrarium.

Just a simple waterbowl that is cleaned on a regular base is much better.

@ Cyrill... I work in Reptilezoo Iguana in Vlissingen, the Netherlands.
Look at our site that I made:IGUANA (http://www.iguana.nl). Together with two friends we started this zoo in 1981 after giving shelter tot all kinds of reptiles at our homes.
Today it is the largest, completely indoor Reptilezoo from Europe I am told.

We don't keep garter snakes overthere at this time. Our biggest snake is a female Python reticulatus - Reticulated python that weighs 80 kilo and is 6 meters long.
The smallest is a juvenile Natrix natrix that weighs about 10 gram and is 25 cm long :)

[boeh]

Hey Rick

Thanx for the info. This is generally an interessting thing with the ultraviolet light. But i'll never put a whatercourse again in a cage. Now i tell the same thing like Fons. However, this is anyhow an interessting thing for me. If you have some infos, it would be very nice.

I either won't make any back plane like in the terrarium above again. Now, I'm just on a sterile trip. I probably overact a little bit, but better a bit to much than to few. But I can either post some pics of the cages (I'll do in the future...) if you want?

@Fons
Nice thing you do over there! If I'll ever go again in the Netherlands, I'll have a look at your fine zoo. I was there 2 times. Once in Antverpen (very long time ago...) and once in Amsterdam / zandvoort?. I like this country and the people which living there!

Regards,
Cyrill

[Cazador]

I don't blame you one bit for not wanting to have a waterfall in any more displays after such terrible losses.

Just for discussion purposes, I'll find out more about the UV light technique. The way it works is that the UV light creates bonds (cross-linkages) between the DNA of simple organisms, which doesn't let them reproduce and ends up killing them. It can also create cross-linkages on human DNA, but we have better repair mechanisms than microbes. This is how the sun causes skin cancer.

In order to use such a system, you would have to make a separate area where the water could be treated (like you did below your terrarium), and it would have to be out of sight, so you're not looking at the UV light when it's turned on and working. I'll see if I can find any information on prices.

Finally, I would love to see more of your amazing terraria.
Rick

[abcat1993]

If I have a UV light for my anole, should I be worried about it's eyes or my eyes?

[CrazyHedgehog]

euthanasia.
?? you had the snakes put down??
PLEASE PLEASE someone...if ever there was a need for a full article about avoiding and caring for or curing...this is it... sorry for the loss Boeh..I would be heart broken..
(I was thinking about a water course...scrap that..) Every few months I move the snakes out and wash the cages down with a mild bleach solution, rinse well and put them back, would this help fight anything like this or is it a case of once they have it thats it?

[Cazador]

I'd be very surprised if the crypto came from Cyrill's drinking water source if it's been through a public treatment system.

Cyrill,
Did you get any of your water from a stream or untreated source? Did you add a live fish to your water that you caught from a stream? If not, maybe a new snake introduced it into the water system, where it multiplied.

[Thamnophis]

The crypto-source most probably did not come from the water. The water in Switzerland is clean, I presume.
But when you daily or once every two days change the water in the waterbowl, the infectious parasites etc. have less chance to multiply.
In a system where the water goes round and round via a waterfall, the water mostly does not get changed that much. Often it is filtered.
But such a thing like the crypto cannot be filtered out, I think.
And in this way is the chance there is an outbreak much bigger.

But a big part of Bad Luck is also needed for such unlucky events.

[Cazador]

The problem is that cryptosporidium is a protist (a protozoan), not a bacterium. Thus, it had to be transported into the terrarium. It couldn't have dispersed through the air. If the water is clean, then we can rule out contamination by local fish. This suggests that a healthy-looking snake must have introduced it into the water, where it multiplied like crazy. Even a month's quaranteen probably wouldn't have identified the infested snake or allowed this tragedy to be prevented. What an unlucky break!

[boeh]

@Rick
This is a very interessting thing with the UV-light. I didn't know about those destroying mechanism. As you know I still have a sirtalis x flame cross that's infected with cryptos. The infection isn't really strong, but there is one. It would be propably good if I would install an UV-light and let it shine for some minutes per day. Maybe this would kill the cysts which are defecated by the snake. That would probably avoid the self infect (this is a big problem by this disease).

I don't think that they come from the local drinking system. I think they were "produced" in the watersystem. I cleaned the system out every week (waterchange and some cleaning). My opinion is that the faeces which the snake probably made in the waterpool were pumped through the system and let some residues in the pump system. There (in the pump and the tubes) they couldn't realy get cleaned and had the chance to multiply and infect the snake. Is this possible, or can't protists be developed by contaminated water?

I never had some fish in the pool and didn't get the water out of a stream. This we can except.

@Fons
Yes, they can't be filtered out. They cysts (in german: Oozysten, but I don't know the right english word for it) are only 5 micrometer small.

@CrazyHedgehog
Maybe I misunderstood something, please correct if that wasn't youre question. Yes, I had to kill them, because their condition was getting worser. I didn't do that by myself, a vet doctor did that for me. The fight against those cryptos is very hard. If you have them, such cleaning mechanism wouldn't be enough. I cleaned out the boxes of the sick snakes every 2 / 3 days with "eau de Javel" (do you say that like this? eau de javel is a bleeching solution). But if you don't have them, this is a good thing! The most important thing is to clean out the whaterbowl periodical. I do that once a time in 2 days. If they made faeces in the whaterbowl, I clean it out with some alcohol.

A good solution against cryptos is heat and cold. Some time under 0 ° Celsius will kill them. Therefore I probably will send my last infected snake in the hibernation and cool down the temperature once a week down to 0 ° Celcius for ONLY 2 hours. Probably this will help either. But I'm not sure yet if I really will do that. The material can be cleaned with heat. As far as I know the cysts will be killed by a heat of about 100 ° Celsius.

And yes, i was very very sad about this thing :( :(

[Stefan-A]

I'm fairly certain that cold will NOT kill crypto. I wouldn't take any risks, when every source says it's not curable.

[boeh]

This is interessting. I read that once or two times in some articles. Probably I'll find them again. Do you have some articles about this topic?

Thanx,
Cyrill

[Stefan-A]

None bookmarked. A quick search gave the result that cold (-20 for several hours) does indeed kill most, but not all of the parasites.

[Cazador]

I'm still looking for more information on the UV systems, but they don't appear to be cheap. They're not just the standard UV bulb that you buy for a few dollars. These use specific light wavelengths to kill pathogens (bacteria and protozoa). I need to make a phone call to see if the UV bulb in the link, below, includes the wand (similar to a flashlight). There are other sources, so I might be able to find a viable alternative. I'll keep you posted.
Rick

VWR.COM - Product Page (http://www.vwrsp.com/catalog/product/index.cgi?catalog_number=82023-952&inE=1&highlight=82023-952&from_search=1)

[Cazador]

Here are three better links for UV treatment systems. They're much less expensive alternatives. In the mean time, I'd suggest cleaning the the last infected snake's cage once every week or two with a fairly strong (25%) bleach solution. Better to go a little overboard in this case.

Vecton UV Sterilizers by T.M.C., 8W, 3 gpm flow rate (http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/9010/cid/2190)

ProClear Pond Clarifier (http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/8988/cid/2195)

U.V. Sterilizers, 4 max gpm, 8W, V Style, 1 lamp, 8W bulb, 1-1/4 (http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/8876/cid/2225)

[Thamnophis]

To kill the bacteria, etc. in our reptilezoo we use Hibicet. Every terrarium is cleaned with it once a week.

[boeh]

Thanx Rick. I'll check that out.

The sick snake's cage is cleaned every 2-3 days. On every waterchange he will be putted in a steril box. The "old" box will be "filled" with bleach solution for 1 day. then the box gets very good washed with water for the next adoption. He even only gets feeded in the clean box, to minimize the danger of re-infect.

[Cazador]

Great job, Cyrill. If that doesn't get rid of the problem (along with the medications that you already mentioned), nothing will.
Rick

[abcat1993]

If I have a UV light for my anole, should I be worried about it's eyes or my eyes?
Bump
this is too short, I will make it longer

[Cazador]

The type of UV lights that are used to treat water are much more powerful than the ones you buy at Wal Mart, for example, and they concentrate specific wavelengths of light (240-245nm, as I recall). As a general precaution, though prolonged exposure to any UV light isn't good for your eyes. Use it sparingly.

[Stefan-A]

If I have a UV light for my anole, should I be worried about it's eyes or my eyes?
Bump
this is too short, I will make it longer
No, it's not intensive enough. UVB can be harmful to your eyes, but that's something that primarily concerns welders. And if your cage is made of ordinary glass, UVB won't penetrate it anyway.

Cazador, that wavelength would make it UVC.

UVA: 400-315 nm
UVB: 315-280 nm
UVC: <280 nm

[Cazador]

Stefan
That makes sense. I had to double-check, but the UV water purification systems have wavelengths ranging between about 185 & 255 nm. It sounds like you know that the shorter wavelengths don't carry as far, but they're much more intense and have a worse effect on DNA within their range. That's why these systems have to be shielded from line-of-sight exposure.

Abcat,
Like Stefan said, the UV light won't penetrate the glass, but it will penetrate the screen openings on top of your terrarium, so I'd use it sparingly with your snake and not at all on albinos.
Rick

[abcat1993]

So, if I don't change his bulb, he will go blind. Petco sells many types of these UV bulbs. And almost every website I went to said that anoles need UV lights. Should I switch them on and off?

[Stefan-A]

In my opinion, there is no need to worry about the anole's or snake's eyes, as long as the animals aren't albino.

We are talking about a normal UVB light intended specifically for reptiles, right?

[Cazador]

Stefan makes a good point about distinguishing between the various forms of UV light. At first, we were specifically talking about UVC, which is the most dangerous type (but least common) because it has high-energy, short wavelength emissions. It's very effective at killing waterborne microbes but also has deleterious effects on vertebrates.

"Blacklights" emit in the near UVA and slightly into the visible light spectrum. These are different from UVB lights. As far as I've read, Vitamin D is produced when the skin is exposed to UVB, so I'm not sure what the UVA provides (besides heat). Perhaps someone could clarify?

Both UVA and UVB can create thiamine dimers in the DNA (i.e. inappropriate bonding), leading to replication errors and tumors/cancer. UVA and UVB can also stimulate cells to secrete "prostaglandins," which suppress the immune system, lead to premature aging of the skin (wrinkles), and can cause a whole lot of other maladies.

I've attached a link to a World Health Organization website that talks about the effects of UV light on several health-related endpoints. It is very brief but has links that provide more information. One endpoint includes eye diseases as a result of UVA (blacklight) exposure.

Personally, I think it's a cheap and simple matter to use Infrared bulbs to produce heat and supplement a reptile's diet with calcium plus vitamin D instead of using the UV-type bulbs. The UV bulbs are probably fine to use "sparingly," but I wouldn't expose myself to them for several hours at a time, day after day. In my opinion, it's not worth the risk.

Finally, I believe that calcium supplementation is necessary (particularly in the absence of UV light), and most Ca supplements come fortified with vitamin D. Therefore, I don't believe additional vitamin D from UV lighting is prudent. Vitamin D isn't water soluble; it's fat soluble and can accumulate in fatty tissues. It becomes toxic at high concentration. I don't want to imply that UV light cannot or should not be used, it just comes with known risks. Since I've never owned a lizard/anole and know little about their physiology, please don't use my advise toward their well being. Best,
Rick

WHO | Health effects of UV radiation (http://www.who.int/uv/health/en/)

[abcat1993]

Maybe I won't be getting more of those bulbs. I have always been overly worried for my eyes, so just to be safe, I'll get rid of those soon. Although, I read somewhere that they stop producing UV light after 6-8 months. Does that mean that they slowly produce less? In that case I would just wait until it dies and use florescent bulbs or natural sunlight ones, or maybe even those basking lights

[Cazador]

I don't know why UV lights would stop producing UV light after time, except that they'll probably burn out in about 6-8 months. Fluorescent bulbs put out a lot of light, but not a lot of heat. Depending upon how cool your room gets at night, you might just choose to use a standard soft white light bulb during the day, and turn it off at night. A 5-10F drop in temp at night is perfectly fine. If the temp drops over 10F, then you might consider a heat pad under the tank or an IR bulb. Again, these are just my preferences. There's certainly more than one right way to raise a snake. :)

[abcat1993]

Well, the last thing I want is a reptile that I took from the wild and either blinded or gave cancer to. On that link, you posted though, it did say that UVB has the least amount of risk, but I don't know if the one I have is between UVB and either UVA or UVC. I should probably stop bugging people about this and just decide what to do.