Going bioactive

[Elisabeth83]

How early is too early, if there is such a thing? My baby girls are getting up in age and I think they could use a good upgrade to go with their new bigger enclosure. I’ve just heard mixed information about whether a bioactive substrate is good for juvenile snakes. I need to stop reading all these different blogs and just go to you guys.
Also has anybody ever had problems with your garters trying to eat the isopods or springtails? Will the chitinous exoskeletons be harmful to their digestion if it happens?
15379
This is my biggest baby for reference. The two others are a bit smaller and younger, if that matters.

[Manitou]

Which subspecies are your baby girls? Many of northern origin should have already be in brumation. That aside:

1) Garters will not attempt to consume an organism containing an exoskeleton.
2) If "early" means younger, smaller snakes (i.e. less snake biomass), who can locate the intended prey items, then no, there is no such thing as too early. The larger the enclosure and the smaller the snake biomass the more efficient the bioactivity.

Three examples (assumes feeding the same proportionately, therefore producing same amount of waste, proportionately):
1) 10g tank containing 10 units of substrate with 3 snakes whose total weight = 1 pound
2) 20g tank containing 20 units of substrate with 3 snakes whose total weight = 1 pound
3) 40g tank containing 40 units of substrate with 3 snakes whose total weight = 1 pound

The last tank, the 40g, is the most efficient bioactively.

Three more examples (also assuming feeding the same proportionately):
1) 10g tank containing 10 units of substrate with 1 snake whose total weight = 1 pound
2) 20g tank containing 20 units of substrate with 2 snakes whose total weight = 1 pound
3) 40g tank containing 40 units of substrate with 3 snakes whose total weight = 4 pounds

The 1st and 3rd tank would be of equal bioactivity; the 2nd tank would be most efficient.

OT question: Why do you want to go bioactive?

[MNGuy]

I went bioactive when both of my snakes were about a year old and it's been great. Mine have not tried to eat the isopods or springtails. I use zebra isopods so they're pretty big. I don't think exoskeletons would be an issue if snakes are digesting bones on a regular basis.

I only keep young snakes on paper towel to help monitor their droppings and feeding. I think you're safe to go bioactive once you know your snake is healthy.

Good luck!

[Elisabeth83]

Which subspecies are your baby girls? Many of northern origin should have already be in brumation.
OT question: Why do you want to go bioactive?

Wow thanks for all that info!!! Definitely copying and saving that for later! :)

One baby is a Western Terrestrial, one is an Eastern, and one’s a Lake Chapala. The only one I’ve noticed trying to brumate yet is my Chapala, and just because I turned off the heating pad and tried to source their heat with only a basking lamp at the behest of a tham Facebook group. Turned out to be a big mistake, she immediately tried to brumate right in the same spot she went to sleep two days earlier with the exact same size food baby she went to bed with! Stopped digesting her food at all, went totally limp, lethargic and cold (she’s usually lively as hell) and I had to get her back on her heating pad quick. But enough of my rant! Haha. Tropical species so maybe the same rules don’t apply. She’s doing just fine now. The other two maybe are eating slightly less on some feeding days kinda?... It’s hard to tell though.
I want to go bioactive because it just seems like the healthiest set up for them. It seems the cleanest and most naturalistic, so hopefully it can help them feel at ease and happy with their surroundings. Baby snakes are in general a jumpy bunch and I’d like to help them be as comfortable as possible.

[Elisabeth83]

I went bioactive when both of my snakes were about a year old and it's been great. Mine have not tried to eat the isopods or springtails. I use zebra isopods so they're pretty big. I don't think exoskeletons would be an issue if snakes are digesting bones on a regular basis.

Oh nice! Thanks for that! Yeah I’m getting a mix of different isopods in the mail pretty soon here and some of them are Dairy Cows, nice and big. Also some powder blues and oranges too but not sure how big they are. But that’s okay, sounds like so far everyone’s saying the snakes arent interested in eating them anyway which is good enough news for me. :)

[MNGuy]

Oh nice! Thanks for that! Yeah I’m getting a mix of different isopods in the mail pretty soon here and some of them are Dairy Cows, nice and big. Also some powder blues and oranges too but not sure how big they are. But that’s okay, sounds like so far everyone’s saying the snakes arent interested in eating them anyway which is good enough news for me. :)


Cool. It might be worth doing some research on bioactive forums (I belong to a good one on Facebook -- bioactive setups for reptiles and amphibians, or something like that) about mixing different species of isopods. I know some species can "take over" a tank and out compete others, killing them off over time. It wouldn't be worth your money to mix some species. Although it seems like maybe some can mix?

I'm not an expert. I only keep one type.

Good luck.

[Elisabeth83]

Yes! I just joined that group today! So far I haven’t posted anything and just looked through it. I’ll keep that in mind with the isopods. Definitely have to do more research as I’ve only been a snake mom now for 3 months. :p
I know the mix of isopods I’m getting were all cultured together, no idea if that counts for anything. Haha

[NikkiSixx]

Just curious on the one you have the picture of above. Looks more like a wandering to me. and when we go out, we find them in 40ish degree weather. Sometimes colder. We also have a bioactive tank, and it seems like some species like it, and others hid out more. Like our valleys and wanderings hide more, but our plains and red sides love it and are always out exploring.

[Elisabeth83]

Yes she is a wandering. Sorry I got in the habit of calling them Western Terrestrials back when I was scouring Wikipedia trying to figure out what she was. :p
Right now she’s my big climber, she loves climbing all over the fake plants in our tank, I’m hoping she’ll like exploring the live plants even more, but I guess we’ll see. Do you think maybe putting in an extra dry rough basking platform would help keep her happy in a bioactive tank? Or maybe a dry sandy spot? Wanderings tend to like it a bit dry, right?

[NikkiSixx]

We have found them 40 feet up in a tree. It is one of my favorite den spots. I can sit there for hours watching them come out of the tree trunks. breeding balls way up in the tree. If I knew how to pull pictures from Facebook and Instagram I would show them. So I am sure she would love claiming and playing in the fake/live plants.

[Manitou]

Elisabeth:
"Eastern" is a very general term for a very broad range of Garter subspecies. If I understand correctly, you got your three Garters 3 months ago. You weren't the breeder so either somebody else bred them for you or they are wild-caught. Either way were you able to confirm a specific locale of origin? That is important. Easterns range from the Canadian province of Ontario to Florida. The latter might brumate 1 month a year while the former might brumate 8 months a year. If you want to provide optimal care you should look into the ancestry of your Garters. Brumation is largely endogenous, and keeping a northern Eastern awake most of the year, or a southern Eastern asleep most of the year, will not bode well for either.

I'll assume that your three Garters all have the same temperatures, humidity, and exposure to the diurnal cycle. That's very unnatural. And the fact that your Chapala is trying to brumate is not at all surprising, given that it has had ~12 hours of day + ~12 hours of night since dinosaurs were pooping in puddles. Your avatar indicates that you are in USA. Regardless of your location in USA you've had <12 hours of daylight since September 21, and each day is getting shorter and shorter. Chapalas would best be provided with an artificial light source during Winter months in USA, but no so for your other two Garters.

Be careful with those Facebook groups. They're fine for photos, but most of those people don't have a clue what they're talking about.

When you say "immediately tried to brumate"... the brumation process for northern snakes starts weeks before they are actually in brumation. What do you mean "food baby she went to bed with"?

Bioactive is not the healthiest nor cleanest. The ultimate bioactive environment is Nature, where snakes defecate and immediately move far enough away from it so that there's no chance of them breathing in the odor. This is why (part of the reason why), that when wild snakes enter the hibernacula they have been fasting for weeks. Once several feet below the ground, in relatively tight quarters shared with several other snakes (sometimes thousands; read about the Narcisse Snake Dens) they can't afford to expel any noxious waste.

The healthiest/cleanest bedding is paper towels. I've been breeding for much of the last 40 years and have tried every substrate available; nothing is as efficient as paper towels in absorbing waste and, more importantly, allowing the location of waste to be quickly determined so that it can be removed. All of those set ups with the plants and the rocks and the water falls and the bells and the whistles... they're all aesthetically pleasing to humans but do nothing to enhance the quality of the snakes' lives.

Nikki:
About finding Garters in 40ish degree or colder weather. That means a hibernaculum is nearby.

40 feet up in a tree is a favorite den spot? When? This time of year they are more likely to be 40' under the ground, at least below the frost line.

When do you watch them come out of the tree trunks; breeding balls way up in the tree? That sounds very odd.

[NikkiSixx]

Elisabeth:

Nikki:
About finding Garters in 40ish degree or colder weather. That means a hibernaculum is nearby.

40 feet up in a tree is a favorite den spot? When? This time of year they are more likely to be 40' under the ground, at least below the frost line.

When do you watch them come out of the tree trunks; breeding balls way up in the tree? That sounds very odd.


Yes, in a tree, way up in it. They have a den below in some old tree roots below the frost line. In the spring we go there and watch them come out, they come out right by the base, to all the way up high in the trees. I have pictures to prove it. :) I am still looking for the pictures of me in the tree taking pictures of a breeding ball that was up there. But Here is the picture to prove temp and a snake in hand. We go early spring to find them. Once it warms up, we don't go back to that spot.

[NikkiSixx]

15380

[NikkiSixx]

153811538215383

[Manitou]

I'm not doubting that they've been out in 40F, I've seen them sunning themselves on a calm day in the mid-30's. But it's an indication that there is an underground retreat nearby (aka hibernaculum) so that when the sun drops and night temps fall below freezing they can return to safety and not freeze to death. They will remain in the vicinity until night temps are above freezing for several consecutive nights then they will disperse.

During Autumn they begin returning to that area, dropping below the frost line at night and coming up during the day to sun themselves and finish digesting the last of their Summer meals.

This brumation has been going on since before Homo sapiens existed and we can learn from the process and mimic the process for our captive Garters.

[MNGuy]

Yes, in a tree, way up in it. They have a den below in some old tree roots below the frost line. In the spring we go there and watch them come out, they come out right by the base, to all the way up high in the trees. I have pictures to prove it. :) I am still looking for the pictures of me in the tree taking pictures of a breeding ball that was up there. But Here is the picture to prove temp and a snake in hand. We go early spring to find them. Once it warms up, we don't go back to that spot.

That's really cool. I totally believe that.

My eastern and plains garter are very arboreal in the limited height of their 40 breeder. I stack cork rounds and branches and they are very adept at climbing and prefer to be perched up high rather than on the ground or on or in their ground-level hides. The temperatures are accurate for their ground-level hides and basking spot; they just prefer being up higher.

[Elisabeth83]

Elisabeth:
"Eastern" is a very general term for a very broad range of Garter subspecies. If I understand correctly, you got your three Garters 3 months ago. You weren't the breeder so either somebody else bred them for you or they are wild-caught. Either way were you able to confirm a specific locale of origin? That is important. Easterns range from the Canadian province of Ontario to Florida. The latter might brumate 1 month a year while the former might brumate 8 months a year. If you want to provide optimal care you should look into the ancestry of your Garters. Brumation is largely endogenous, and keeping a northern Eastern awake most of the year, or a southern Eastern asleep most of the year, will not bode well for either.


Shoot... im not 100% sure of the Eastern girl’s lineage, but I know the breeders are located in Florida. So I would cautiously assume that she’s a local subspecies. I know she was captive born but not sure if captive bred. I would ask the breeders but they don’t seem to speak English too well and they haven’t even gotten back to me on when her birthday is yet (yes I celebrate my snakes’ birthdays, I’m lame okay :p). So I don’t have high hopes of hearing back from them on much of anything. My eastern and my wandering now only seem to be interested in eating once a week, whereas they both used to eat every 3 days. They’re not shedding as often either. So maybe they are just now getting ready to brumate? Or just getting older and not growing as fast...or both? My wandering is a half yearling now and I don’t think my eastern is that much younger, maybe 5 months old.
My Chapala is still eating like a pig with no signs of slowing down.