Getting WC baby garters to eat

[Luckylego]

Hey y'all,

I ended up in the possession of 3 WC baby garters (maybe only a few days old, caught in my friend's house).. I've always wanted to start a garter colony, so I thought I'd try my hand at these little guys. They've been home with me for 24hours now, and I figure I'll try feeding them in another 1-2 days, but the question is.. what? They're so small that I'm not sure what the best to start them at would be. I have frozen basa and tilapia fillets that I could try as well.. thoughts?

15354

[Just CL]

Good looking babies. So...with fish the greatest issue is usually thiaminase. It causes a series of reactions that destroy vitamin B1. I'm fairly certain tilapia doesn't contain thiaminase, but think that some of the catfish family may. Some have had success with tilapia, but I've heard stories of some containing additives that have killed snakes. If I were you I'd try either earthworms or nightcrawlers, or pinky legs and tails. If earthworms, start small. A piece the size of their head every day or a couple every other day is enough. If pinky parts, a couple legs every few days will do. If they have a nice little lump, they've eaten enough. If it disappears, you can probably feed them some more. I firmly believe newborn garters can eat themselves to death, so I'd start slow. In a month they'll be eating their own body weight every couple of days. That's what I'd do anyways...oh, and watch them as they eat. If two begin eating on the opposite end of a prey item, they'll meet in the middle and the larger, dominant one will keep going. Instead of one really fat snake you'll have two really dead snakes.

[Just CL]

P.s If they are one of the Piscivorous species of garter, there's a post on safe fish on here somewhere.

[Luckylego]

Thank you! I just learned that Basa are a no go, so I've scrapped that option. I might try digging around in my garden tonight for some smaller earthworms. I worry that they might not take food from me though.. is that very common with garters or should they come around in a bit?

Tonight I observed one of them putting his head underwater and swimming around his water dish.. could he be looking for fish?

[Just CL]

Garter Snake Forum - Garter Caresheet (http://www.thamnophis.com/index.php?page=caresheet)

Here's that list I mentioned. Yeah...they sometimes come around. But I'd be surprised if they refused a worm piece. If you cut the tail off first it wriggles enticingly for a bit. Yeah it could've been looking for a fish, but it could've just gotten a bit of dust or substrate on its face. They seem to do that head in water thing for no real reason sometimes.

[Luckylego]

So 2/3 ate some worm pieces for me last night! The third (and smallest), looked to be going into shed, so I'll try again tomorrow perhaps.

In terms of feeding.. I see some saying to separate and others who feed off of plate/bowl and its a free for all.. what's the best option?

Also.. one of the 3 is developing some REALLY nice colouring. Any idea what he would be? Keep in mind he's still quite young

15355

[Just CL]

Very cool that at least some of them have eaten. I take it you're from California? Because that looks like a pretty little red sided garter. As for the straggler...you should continue to offer food. It will probably eventually accept it. If not you'll have 2 options: setting it free, and force feeding. But we'll talk about that in a few days. Just make sure it stays hydrated. Worms are high in moisture and if (s)he isn't eating, it needs hydration from elsewhere. As for the bowl vs individual feeding...it doesn't matter in your case. The downside to separating them is that handling after feeding can make nervous animals throw up. But that's rare. Personally mine seem to eat better as groups. But that's not always the case. You only have three, so it's easy to keep an eye on them. I use the bowl/lid method, just because it would take all day and 80 containers to separate them. You just have to make sure they don't eat each other. Occasionally when you break up a food fight, the loser will get butt hurt and not eat. But that's also rare. You should be fine either way.

[Luckylego]

I wondered about it being a red sided, but it's head is completely black, and I think they also have red heads yes?

I'll reoffer chopped worms/tilapia tonight on a lid, and hopefully the little one will eat. At what point do I consider letting him go? I'll happily do so if that's what it takes for him to thrive, but just curious when.

I'm tempted to grow the colony by another 1-2 snakes - if I can find some. Would it be a problem to introduce new additions to the tank?

[Just CL]

If he begins to look really skinny. The skin will look...dehydrated. Sort of like there is a separation between his back and sides. It's quite hard to describe, but you'll know it when you see it. By that point, it will likely be too late. He may not even eat in the wild. Some babies are well developed and strong, and some...not so much. He could unfortunately be one destined not to make it. But don't count him out now, he may still make it. Just wait and see. As for species. Red sided garters do have red heads, sometimes, but not always at birth. Most garters "color up" as they get older. I've even seen red sided garters with little to no red. If you're near Napa it could be a T. s. infernalis x T. s. fitchi hybrid. Or just a normal red sided. It's tough to tell. I wouldn't get any new ones until I was sure those aren't sick, as they could pass something on to your new ones. If they were free, that would suck, but red sideds are often +/- 200$ which would suck more. It could also be a really high red T. Fitchi (valley garter). But I've never seen one with side pattern that high up. But they may exist.

[Luckylego]

Oh shoot, I forgot to mention that I'm in Bellingham WA. That will likely make a difference in guessing. He had very little red on him when he was caught a week ago, but already he's eaten twice and his colour/size have just exploded. He's so bright now!

I'll keep an eye on the little guy. If he doesn't eat within the next few days then I might release him. If I added anymore, it would be another WC (as these 3 all were).. so it wouldn't cost anything. However I do see what you mean about waiting to be sure there are no issues first.

[Just CL]

Then you have yourself the most interesting valley garter snake I have ever seen. Thamnophis sirtalis fitchi. If you catch a few more, keep them separate for a month or so at least. Please. Cross contamination goes both ways. Even if the ones you have are fine, what if the ones you catch end up killing that exquisite looking specimen you pictured? Just be careful.

[Luckylego]

No that's a really great point. I might go herping today and see what I can find, but if I catch anything of interest I'll use one of my spare tanks for it.

As for colour.. I'm excited to see how it turns out! He's been getting more and more colour everyday. I'd also caught one with a very blue hue to it (I wondered if it was a blue phase puget), that my cousin ended up keeping for a day or two and then releasing, so there seems to be a good variety of colours at the location I'd visited.

[Just CL]

Very, very cool. Happy herping. I hope you find something awesome. It's cool when people get enthusiastic about animals, and it looks like you caught the bug. I don't know how old you are, or if you'll get the reference but, once you find a real life shiny, you are hooked.lol (Pokemon reference).

[Luckylego]

Haha definitely got that one.. 29 year old ultra nerd over here :cool:

So, a bit random but it looks as though my little guy was missing this morning.. unless he's underground. The odds of him escaping are slim - his tank is on a fairly secure lockdown. My roommate is wondering, could it be possible that the bigger one ate him? He doesn't look full, so I'm thinking probably not, but what are the odds of something like that happening? The size difference between them wasn't huge, but definitely one is bigger than the other two. Is cannibalism common when one is larger than the other?

[Just CL]

No. Well...not in that particular species. If one of them ate him they would look huge. Or more likely, be dead. I seriously don't think that would happen, unless they were fighting over food. He is probably hiding. But...they are escape artists. If they can fit up to their eyes out of something, they can escape. I'd guess hiding though. Hopefully. Or, check the ledges around the rim of the tank if you haven't. They get wet and the water adhesion let's them shimmy up the corner of the tank. If not, idk. Some babies do like to burrow in substrate occasionally.

[Luckylego]

Good to know! In that case, he either escaped, is hiding, or died hiding and I'll find him later lol.

I ended up catching another, but there is a small sore on it that has me concerned about parasites/disease... What do you think, release?15360

Also, when do you think it's okay for me to start handling the little guys?

[Just CL]

As for the new snake, it's probably just a skin infection. But it could be a bad, bad, bad, very bad one. Nowadays there's a super fungus called Ophidiomyces ophiodiicola that causes something called snake fungal disease. It's very bad. It kills 80-90% of rattlesnakes who get it, and it's driven populations to extinction. Luckily it only kills about 40% of garter snakes in my experience. From this photo it's hard to say if it is or isn't that. Look it up and compare the pics you find with the snake. I was part of a team a few years back researching it, and I hope to god it isn't SFD. If it is, don't release the snake. If you have a garage or something far away from your snake room, buy a tub and keep it there. If it dies, bury or burn it. We don't want it spreading more than it has. If it is, bleach or alcohol your hands and don't touch your babies tonight. (Bleach or alcohol. Not both. Together they produce chloroform).Or feed them. Nothing. And if it isn't, I'd still keep it out of the snake room. And still wash up well. If it is SFD and that's all the worse it has it, it'll likely shed out of it in a few sheds. And handling your babies, I just sent that very answer to one of my customers.lol I'll copy and paste.

[Just CL]

Is it bad to handle them a lot?
"Nah. I mean, don't go extreme.lol At first, take it slow. They'll be a bit stressed after shipping. Give them a couple days to adjust and then gradually ramp up the time. So, maybe 3 days after you get them hold them for 5 minutes or so, then put them back and feed them. Then a week after maybe hold them a bit longer. After a month or so they should be used to you. Like any new relationship, it's better for both parties to take it slow."

[Albert Clark]

Also, most baby garters need a moving target to elicit a feeding response. Certainly going from wild to captive is a stressor on the babies in general. Established sub adult and adults will adapt easier. Try using tongs to hold the food item and kinda wiggle it from side to side close to the baby garters head and mouth. Don’t be too aggressive in the wiggling because that will probably just make him want to hide.

[Luckylego]

So it appears as though my babies adapted easier than I thought.. they'll happily take worms that I drop in front of them. The issue is the new sub adult/adult that I have.. He just doesn't seem to want to eat for me. No interest in worms or tilapia - he'll actually flee from the worms if dropped in nearby. Any ideas? When should I consider force feeding?