Checkered Garters Attempting to Mate?

[kcl]

I got up this morning to my two (both ~2yrs old) checkered garter snakes trying to mate. Supposedly they are both male (sold to me as male, tails look the same to me, will post pictures of the tails tonight for further verification). The one was very determinedly riding around on the other and has returned to doing so after being separated. The one on the bottom just shed sometime during the night or early morning and did not seem particularly amused. Assuming they truly are both male, do I need to separate them?

They have not been brumated, and have never stopped eating.

[Zdravko092368]

It is likely they are both male if you were sold them as male and tails look the same because it is not incredibly uncommon for males to try to court each other after a shed, I can't remember the exact reason why but I'm sure someone knows.

[Albert Clark]

Well, it's certainly possible if you are housing them together (communal) one male will try and dominate the other male by attempting to breed with him. The sexes of both needs to be confirmed for sure. However there may also be the possibility the inferior male may secrete female pheromones.

[kcl]

They are housed communally and have been since I got them. I can separate them if needed for any reason, including if one male is now stressing out the other with this behavior. I don't have anything on-hand to put one in because they outgrew my original backup, but I can pick a tank up within a day and have basically everything else needed. The below is the best picture I have on-hand, which is of their mating behavior. I'll get individual pictures of each tail when I get home.

I did see about after the shed. From what I read, the pheromones are in the lipids in the skin. Tests done with tubes of shed skin from males, females, and female-attracting males put on the snakes changed courting behavior accordingly.

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[kcl]

Did my best to get tail pictures, but there was wiggling. I can try again if these aren't good enough. Some of them are quite blurry. Can someone please confirm gender?

149281492914930

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[kcl]

149321493314934

[BUSHSNAKE]

I see tails that say male. Dont have a clue if thats one snake or 2. Theres no point taking a pic from the top

[kcl]

Thanks!

Here's a few better ones:

Snake 1
1493514936

snake 2
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They seem to have stopped

[Eddie]

i think you might have a pair there

[kcl]

i think you might have a pair there

Which one looks female?

[guidofatherof5]

The second snake sure looks female to me. Was #1 courting #2?

[kcl]

The second snake sure looks female to me. Was #1 courting #2?

I think so. I'll take more pictures tonight to make sure that I didn't swap them. But first I'll be going to the store to pick up another tank...

[kcl]

Also, additional information in case it helps people help me. Again, thank you all for the help!

Both snakes are overweight (less than they used to be - I'm working on it). Snake #1, named Relius if I kept them straight correctly, who courted the other, is the fatter snake. They both appear to be the same overall length. I've circled the vent in a picture of each snake in case it helps.

Snake 1>1494214943<Snake 2

[kcl]

1494414945 Snake #1 (Relius) - This is the courting snake

1494614947Snake #2 (Hazama) - Snake that was courted

Does #2 look female still? Thanks!!

[guidofatherof5]

Both are males in my opinion. There is too much girth after the vent/cloaca on #2. I think the big clue to what was going is the fact snake #2 had just shed. Just a pheromone confusion caused by the shedding.

[kcl]

Thanks so much!! That's what I thought personally

[Albert Clark]

I agree that they both appear to be males. The rounded shape of the area beyond the cloacal / anal plate scale is the hemipenes. I agree with Steve. Remember, in the wild (garter) snakes really only come together to hibernate and then to breed. They really do better with their own spaces for the most part. Of course there are times when their paths may cross in the wild but that is infrequent. Even newly born scrubs are independent and go their own separate ways after birth.

[kcl]

These guys are my only snakes housed communally. They have lots of space (and were going to be upgraded soon) and extra hides. This was the first real instance I have seen of either of them exhibiting dominance behavior - which actually was what I originally was trying to get feedback on before I got sidetracked by re-verifying their gender. I have read studies that give evidence of some sociality in thamnophis species outside of hibernation and mating including kin recognition, individual recognition, preferentially going to hiding areas with the scent of conspecifics when other species given the same test with the same conditions preferentially avoided hiding areas with the scents of conspecifics, allowing conspecifics to share hunting areas near the water while aggressively chasing individuals of other garter species to further territory, and more, which is a large part of why I originally chose to house these two together. (Rattlesnakes, particularly pygmy rattlesnakes, are the other snakes that I've seen studies evidencing some social behavior for as well as maternal care interestingly). I am keeping an eye on them currently and considering whether or not I should separate them and am open to input. They stopped the behavior for a day and as of this morning had begun again, but had switched roles.

[Albert Clark]

I keep all my animals separated unless I am pairing them up. I will house hatchlings together until they start putting on size and I deem them ready for their own space. Certainly communal housing is practiced by many and is a personal choice. Social behavior in snakes is sometimes bordered on anthropomorphism but yes the studies are out there. Even during brumation the animals can be housed together as that is more natural for them.

[kcl]

I do try very hard to avoid anthropomorphism while watching them for signs of stress (i.e. "snuggling" is usually competition for the preferred spot even if we think it looks cute). It's a very easy trap to fall into unfortunately and I don't want to harm them for my benefit.