Healthy weight?? Slowing down for winter??

[NinyaCap]

Hi guys,, my garter has been skipping the majority of her meals now that it's cold outside. The last time she ate was about a month (maybe more) ago which was a large piece of f/t silverside. At night her temps drop down to the mid-upper 60s, I was wondering if you think this may be too low for her. I'm thinking she's holding her weight pretty well, but I still have my worries so a second opinion would be great! (photo attached) Any advice on getting her to take/anything at all would be much appreciated. I've been a huge worry-wort over this baby for awhile now! Thank you:))

[Albert Clark]

She does look underweight to me! However, if the temps in her enclosure are going down to the mid to upper 60's at night that's too cold for sure. Has she been taking f/t pink mice at all? Has she ever had f/t mice at all? I would think she should have more size by now also. What weight do you have her at? I would definitely make attempts to increase the night time temps, then that would be the first step in seeing how she responds.

[Albert Clark]

Holy cow Ninya! Now I am wondering if I made a mistake on the sex of the individual California red sided. Can you post a few pictures of the under tail including a pic of the cloaca and the part of the tail past it to the tip. We can get a consensus of the sex of the animal. Someone pointed that out to me and it's totally possible I missexed this individual. In any case, it's a 100% guarantee. That would be the other possible explanation for the small size. I do think she should have a larger head and body by now. Also, should be pounding large pink mice to small hairless hoppers/ peach fuzzies.:confused: And the tail looks too long to truly belong to a female. Try and get the close ups of the under tail as best you can will be helpful. Thanks...

[Albert Clark]

Also Ninya, can you let us know what the daytime temps are in the enclosure and how you are heating it? That will be helpful as well. Thanks. Really nice setup you have there. Males typically will not eat as much as females also so that's another consideration.

[NinyaCap]

Sure!! I'll supply pictures for sexing when I get the chance, s/he isn't big on being handled. I meant mid/upper 70s haha sorry about that!! She hasn't taken any f/t pinkies but I'll offer them again and see if she takes. S/he took almost every meal I offered up until about 2 months ago (especially when it was silverside). :/ Expect pictures either tonight or tomorrow as i'm quite busy today. Thank you so much for the speedy reply. I heat with those multiple feature basking lamps but i'm considering switching to a UTH with thermostat. Her hot side is in the high 80s when i'm home i can get exact temps for you. Thanks!

[Albert Clark]

Sure!! I'll supply pictures for sexing when I get the chance, s/he isn't big on being handled. I meant mid/upper 70s haha sorry about that!! She hasn't taken any f/t pinkies but I'll offer them again and see if she takes. S/he took almost every meal I offered up until about 2 months ago (especially when it was silverside). :/ Expect pictures either tonight or tomorrow as i'm quite busy today. Thank you so much for the speedy reply. I heat with those multiple feature basking lamps but i'm considering switching to a UTH with thermostat. Her hot side is in the high 80s when i'm home i can get exact temps for you. Thanks!
That's great!! Upper and mid 70's is still basically room temperature and these guys need a focused heat source day and night. Unless you are preparing to cool/ brumate the individual. So i still think that range is sub optimal for total comfort and normal behavior of the animal especially over time. UTH and thermostat is a preferred way to keep a handle on your enclosure temperature and of course it's in conjunction with the ambient room temperature that the enclosure is located. Oh, i know it's going to be difficult getting those pics so whenever you can is fine. Hopefully we'll get the members to weigh in on the sexing . The target temperature that is optimal for these guys is 84F - 88F warm side and a cool side retreat in the 77F - 80F range . Ambient temperature in the enclosure will possibly fall in between these ranges based on the ambient room temperature the enclosure is in.

[Albert Clark]

Sure!! I'll supply pictures for sexing when I get the chance, s/he isn't big on being handled. I meant mid/upper 70s haha sorry about that!! She hasn't taken any f/t pinkies but I'll offer them again and see if she takes. S/he took almost every meal I offered up until about 2 months ago (especially when it was silverside). :/ Expect pictures either tonight or tomorrow as i'm quite busy today. Thank you so much for the speedy reply. I heat with those multiple feature basking lamps but i'm considering switching to a UTH with thermostat. Her hot side is in the high 80s when i'm home i can get exact temps for you. Thanks!
Also, if you have the xs (extra small) pinky mice bc that may be a easier swallow based on her/his size. Or option B would be to cut the regular pinkie in half (lengthwise) while still frozen, and then thaw and offer in a shallow dish with live cut nightcrawler mixed in.

[NinyaCap]

I'll go out sometime this week to pick up some x/s pinkies and a UTH+Thermostat to better her temps. :P I'm looking ahead to a musk frenzy in attempt to get these pictures! Haha

[Albert Clark]

I'll go out sometime this week to pick up some x/s pinkies and a UTH+Thermostat to better her temps. :P I'm looking ahead to a musk frenzy in attempt to get these pictures! Haha
Try to get the nightcrawlers too! That's the best investment you can make is the thermostat w/o a doubt. I know very well about the musking, if you try and be slow and measured as you pick her up that may help. i find they get more excited and defensive when they perceive sudden quick movements versus slower. Just something to think about when picking them up. Hahaha..

[NinyaCap]

Sure thing! Already have some nightcrawlers ;) I'll go slow but I think it's still guaranteed, musking is his/her favorite past time activity haha. You've been a huge help :))

[Albert Clark]

Sure, gotcha! Just do the best you can and try not to stress the garter too much in the process. Take your time.

[NinyaCap]

Uhm?? I got the pictures and of course there was musking, I went slow and calmly. S/he Calmed down pretty quick and made the process short. I'm concerned as her vent was 'open'? Never noticed it like that before but it was still very moist and the tissue looked healthy. Well regardless I have images of it, if it is in fact reason for concern. My guess is it's just cause of all that musking. My brother took the photos so they aren't the best,, I hope they'll work.

[NinyaCap]

Not sure if this will help but this is the most recent shed. Image is kinda distorted if not opened fully btw: P

[guidofatherof5]

Male.

[Albert Clark]

Yeah, male. No acute tapering after the cloacal prominence into the tail. Very nice pics. Pm sent.

[Eddie]

How old is the snake?

[NinyaCap]

I'm pretty sure he was born around June?

[Albert Clark]

Yep, June 23rd 2017 was the date of birth.

[Albert Clark]

Glad we figured this one out. Thanks Ninya. Thanks Steve.

[Peterra]

For a June baby he does not look small to me; but that is just me.Talking temps, I tend to favour higher temps myself, close to 90 for the hot side.

[NinyaCap]

I'm uping his temperatures for both day and night. (started 2 days ago) Day: High 80s, Night: Mid 80s. I just purchased some f/t pinkies (I scented with fish) and am offering it right now, so far no luck. He is incredibly shy so the only option is make it appetizing, put it where he'll see it then leave the room completely. He's taken from tweezers before and crawled on my hand!! Two steps forward one back I guess. If he doesn't take tonight, next feeding i'll make that nightcrawler+pinkie entree, and hope for the best. If anyone has any other suggestions for feeding a shy snake it would be greatly appreciated.:)) Hearing that his current weight + size looks okay is a huge relief!! Thank you all!

[Albert Clark]

Hey Ninya , good job. Don't really continue too regularly offering bc sometimes that will reinforce refusals. Great to see the temps are up to par day and night. I would definitely space out the offerings and sure, leave it in the enclosure on a piece of paper towel or foil or dish. As long as your temps are correct you will be ok. As long as the animal is not ill or injured and appears alert I think you're fine. Certainly different offerings of food will help also. There are times that I go through the same issues with feedings and what I do is space out the interval and leave the food in a shallow dish over time or overnight.

[NinyaCap]

Yep! I was planning on offering the next week. I'll update you when he eats. Thanks again!

[Peterra]

I will second what Albert said and ask: have you tried leaving the food in overnight? Some of my garters like to have a midnight snack.

[NinyaCap]

I almost always leave food in overnight. :)

[NinyaCap]

I offered a scented and cut f/t pinky with no takes, so I mixed it in with some cut pieces of fish. Left the room and came back to the pieces of fish gone. He gobbled them all up. Just need to get him to take some mice for me now! :) thank you all so much. I think the temperature fix got him back to his fish-loving self. Next round I'll offer the pinky with some chopped nightcrawler and see how it goes.

[Peterra]

That is great to hear; congrats!

[NinyaCap]

Thank you!!

[Eddie]

Very cool!!

[NinyaCap]

Unfortunately, he hasn't eaten since. I've offered nightcrawler pieces, f/t silverside, and scented pinky (cut). Stayed consistent with temperatures. I leave it in overnight but no takes and seemingly no interest at all. He hasn't shed since this hunger strike. (no growth) Originally he shed very often. I don't think I see too much weight loss, but I am worried. If anyone has any other suggestions or input I would love to hear, this one has me stressed out. These are recent pictures of him if anyone thinks he is concerningly underweight. I'm just scared he is malnourished at this point or ill. He is still curious and when startled he gets around by zooming. I can tell he is active as there are 5 new tunnels through the aspen when I come home. I'm a huge worry-wort especially when it comes to my animals who are my responsibility. Any more input/recommendations would be incredible, I apologize for being repetitive. You all are amazing, thank you.

[Eddie]

I actually would not worry so much. They sometimes just naturally cycle them selves. Best of luck!!

[NinyaCap]

Okay, thank you. I will try :))

[Albert Clark]

Also, recheck your temperatures and add a paper towel roll hide that is stuffed with paper towel in one end so that there is only one way in and out. Don't handle him until he's back on track feeding regularly too. After 1 week, offer fish scented extra small f/t pink mice on the lid of a closed deli cup with a few live guppies or minnows inside the deli cup. Only use a very shallow amount of water so as the live fish in the closed deli cup will flop around and stimulate a feeding response.

[Albert Clark]

Steve actually has a method he posted some time ago on how he recommends placing guppies in a open tub with very shallow amount of water. Then placing the garter baby into the container with the flopping fish in hopes that the guppies will trigger a feeding response. He also posted the video. His method is very effective as is the one I described which is a type of tricking method to get the snake to take the prey on top of the deli cup lid. Make sure you use a clear deli cup with holes in it so the garter can clearly see the flopping fish and smell them also.

[guidofatherof5]

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[NinyaCap]

Hey, thanks for the responses. I took Albert's advice and got him setup with a UTH for belly heat and a basking bulb to raise air temps during the day in a smaller tank (now that he's male). I've offered two feedings since then (one week apart) and he has taken from both. I will definitely try the guppies in the deli cup to get him on some pinkies and for future feedings. It sounds like a great method, thank you all!!

[NinyaCap]

I found a shriveled earthworm in the back of his tank.. the one that I thought he ate. I am now not certain he has eaten at all. I tried container feeding him live fish as shown in Steves video. My store didn't sell any guppies but I read that platies are a safe fish as well and there were a couple small enough. He showed no interest at all :( I gave it about 20-30 minutes before returning him to his tank. I added the still alive platies into one of my
tanks and they are somehow thriving. My temperatures are now- during the day a hotspot of 82ish (basking lamp) and a hotspot of 85 (UTH- set to by thermostat) on opposite ends. There are cool spots throughout the tank as the UTH is quite small of around 70-78 degrees and in a 20 gallon long. At night my basking bulb gets turned off which drops half the tank to 68-70 degrees with the UTH still running at 85. I have several hides throughout the tank many which only have one opening and plenty of substrate to bury into. He has just gone into shed which I am hoping once he completes his shed will spark his appetite again. I feel like I am failing this snake and someone more experienced than I would have more success with him, if this is the case please let me know. I just want this lil-guy happy and healthy. He hasn't put on any weight and he has seemed to have lost some since summer.

[Albert Clark]

Well, listen you are doing all the right things and your setup and husbandry sounds correct. Don't get discouraged and just space out the offerings a little more. Make sure to not handle him at all until he's eating for you. Definitely after a shed the animal will have a increased appetite. Most of my garter babies get their food left on a paper towel or small plate on the enclosure floor. Cali reds are very flighty and get spooked easily. Try feeding him by leaving the food on the floor in the tank. Remember to space the offerings and just be vigilant. Consider raising the hot spot to 88F on your thermostat. Your'e not failing, you just have to continue to tweak different things in the environment. We are here to help you get it right.

[BUSHSNAKE]

If he doesnt eat after he sheds then give him a cooling period. That is the best and most benificial thing to do.

[Albert Clark]

Hi Ninya! Any other updates?

[Peterra]

Update?

[Albert Clark]

I did hear from Ninya recently and i think she will be posting soon enough.

[NinyaCap]

Unfortunately, a week approx after my last post my lil garter (Archimedes) passed away, other than not eating he seemed healthy. I miss him dearly- he was very curious of me in the cutest way. I thank you all for your efforts, sorry for not updating you sooner.

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear of his passing.

[Eddie]

Sorry to hear

[Albert Clark]

My sincere condolences once again Ninya. Please keep me posted on your desire.

[NinyaCap]

Thank you all