Time for Brumation?

[smitty319]

This is my first time keeping garter snakes and so far my T. s. sirtalis has been readily eating worms and guppies but has stopped altogether for the past couple of days. Since it is almost winter I'm assuming she needs to be brumated. From what I've read, I should put her in an area with temperatures at 55f and lower it gradually to 43f over an 8-10 week time span. She's only one month old and I'm wondering if that will effect in any way the period of time for brumation.

Is the process I read about accurate? Please let me know.

Thanks so much,
Aiden Smith

[guidofatherof5]

I would not brumate a neonate. Eating should resume shortly. There are dangers in brumation. I would take this first year and let the scrub grow and mature.

[Albert Clark]

I have a feeling that 43F is way too cold a target temperature even for adults. One month old , even in the wild doesn't happen. They are usually yearlings when the brumation occurs. Some breeders have cooled babies for up to 8 weeks that aren't feeding as a last resort to stimulate the feeding response. Very controversial and most times not necessary. Your real target temperature for brumation should be no lower than 48F and should include adequate moisture to avoid dehydration. I lost 3 adult garters recently bc my temps were too low (46F) and i didn't have adequate hydration/ moisture in the tubs. I am still very saddened over that.

[BUSHSNAKE]

News flash. Babys brumate in the wild. It is no more dangerous then brumating adults. Ive done it with great success and i find its more natural then forcing them to keep eating and come out eating great.

[Peterra]

Steve, do you bromate any of your snakes? Only those that you want to breed? I think that what works for your million plus snakes should work for me too :)

[guidofatherof5]

Steve, do you bromate any of your snakes? Only those that you want to breed? I think that what works for your million plus snakes should work for me too :)

Yes, only the breeders.

[Peterra]

Thanks for the reply! I do not think I am overly interested in breeding mine so I will skip the brumantion process. That said I would not say no to a couple or 100 new babies.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for the reply! I do not think I am overly interested in breeding mine so I will skip the brumantion process. That said I would not say no to a couple or 100 new babies.

Be careful what you wish for.

[Albert Clark]

News flash. Babys brumate in the wild. It is no more dangerous then brumating adults. Ive done it with great success and i find its more natural then forcing them to keep eating and come out eating great.
Joe, not a month old neonate though?? I can't see a 30 day old snake that needs to be brumated bc he missed a couple of feedings. Maybe he's gonna shed, or is otherwise not interested in feeding or just isn't hungry. Also, it's highly unlikely that at one month of age he has the nutritional reserves for brumation. I think it's more important to make sure the young animal is hydrated with fresh water overall.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Joe, not a month old neonate though?? I can't see a 30 day old snake that needs to be brumated bc he missed a couple of feedings. Maybe he's gonna shed, or is otherwise not interested in feeding or just isn't hungry. Also, it's highly unlikely that at one month of age he has the nutritional reserves for brumation. I think it's more important to make sure the young animal is hydrated with fresh water overall.
Yes, why not a month old neonate thats been eating then stoped? Its a common thing this time of the year. I find it easier to brumate in that situation then to work against it. If i was in that situation thats what i would do. Ive been there

[Albert Clark]

Yes, why not a month old neonate thats been eating then stoped? Its a common thing this time of the year. I find it easier to brumate in that situation then to work against it. If i was in that situation thats what i would do. Ive been there OK. However OP stated the neonate only stopped eating "for the past couple of days". That hardly seems enough time to even make a decision to brumate a animal so very young? Have any other options been tried such as giving the animal time to really become hungry, try other prey, scenting pinky parts. I know you have been there but brumation in this case seems like the extreme measure for a fragile, very young baby snake.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Is brumation some horrible thing that people are affraid of? If your in no hurry to put size on your snake then why not give it a cooling period? The days are starting to be shorter, temps are dropping. A cooling period is good for snakes

[guidofatherof5]

Is brumation some horrible thing that people are affraid of? If your in no hurry to put size on your snake then why not give it a cooling period? The days are starting to be shorter, temps are dropping. A cooling period is good for snakes

Not horrible but it is dangerous. It might be natural for some snakes but we have no idea how many wild snakes die from brumation. We certainly have had our share of knowledgeable breeders that have lost snakes for some unknown reason.

[Peterra]

Resilient little snakes when it comes to dealing with the cold (they seem able to brumate close too freezing):

"Bailey (1949) assessed survival atdifferent depths (6-24 in; 1 in. = 25.4 mm) in an artificiallyconstructed snake pit. He found that all snakes survived at adepth of 24 in., where the soil temperature never fell below-0.5"C, but mortality increased at the 18-in. depth, where thetemperature sometimes fell to - 1.5 "C. All snakes died at allshallower levels, where extended exposures to -2°C or lowerwere recorded (Bailey 1949) "

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kenneth_Storey/publication/238025792_Freezing_survival_of_the_garter_snake_Th amnophis_sirtalis/links/0c96051f7b7f071735000000/Freezing-survival-of-the-garter-snake-Thamnophis-sirtalis.pdf

On a different note I just realized I misspelled brumate in a different way every time I wrote it.... Wow, there should be a special prize for that :(

[Peterra]

Another interesting read is the article linked below, what I got from it was the importance of hydration during brumation.


Effects of humidity, temperature, and submergence behavior on survivorship and energy use in hibernating garter snakes, Thamnophis sirtalis

Desiccation is likely an important factor influencing winter mortality rates of terrestrially hibernating reptiles; however, this notion has not been rigorously tested. Groups of eastern garter snakes (Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis) were matched for size and subsequently exposed to simulated hibernative conditions (5 or 12 °C, under different humidity regimes) during winter, for 165 days or until all group members expired. As garter snakes in some dens submerge during natural hibernation, an additional group was maintained in water at 5 °C. Snakes kept in air dehydrated and died (body water contents at death ranged from 62.1 to 67.8% of lean fresh mass), whereas snakes kept in water remained hydrated (median, 75.2%) and survived. Survival duration of air hibernators was inversely related to rate of mass loss, which in turn was strongly influenced by ambient humidity and temperature. Dehydration accounted for most of the mass lost in all air hibernators; however, owing to higher rates of nutrient consumption, mass loss was significantly greater in snakes kept at 12 °C (36%) than in snakes kept at 5 °C (29%). Changes in fat body and liver masses showed that snakes kept in air at 12 °C used the most energy whereas those kept in water at 5 °C used the least. Submerged hibernation behavior has significant survival value because under these conditions snakes remain hydrated during winter. Also, because submerged snakes conserve more stored energy during winter, their reproductive success may be enhanced when mating activities resume in early spring

https://www.units.miamioh.edu/cryolab/publications/documents/Costanzo88_CanJZoo.PDF

[Peterra]

Not horrible but it is dangerous. It might be natural for some snakes but we have no idea how many wild snakes die from brumation. We certainly have had our share of knowledgeable breeders that have lost snakes for some unknown reason.

Deaths from brumation (might provide an indication of the dangers of brumating):

Factors influencing the emergence of a northern population of Eastern Ribbon Snakes (Thamnophis sauritus) from artificial hibernacula

"Of the 15 T. sauritus that were placed in artificial hibernacula, 12 survived hibernation. Three out of five snakes in the hibernacula with a reversing thermal gradient survived hibernation; all snakes in the hibernacula where water level was raised survived; and four snakes out of five in the control hibernacula survived hibernation."

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie (http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/full/10.1139/Z09-114#.WfPSd62ZPNC)

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/Z09-114 (http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/full/10.1139/Z09-114#.WfPRV62ZPNA)

[smitty319]

Update:
Nicole is still not eating but her skin has started to have a shine to it so maybe she has to shed? Her eyes haven't turned blue yet though. I don't think it has anything to do with desiccation because her terrarium stays at a constant 80f and 60-70% humidity w/ a large water bowl

[BUSHSNAKE]

Not horrible but it is dangerous. It might be natural for some snakes but we have no idea how many wild snakes die from brumation. We certainly have had our share of knowledgeable breeders that have lost snakes for some unknown reason.
Oh really, how were the snakes kept?

[BUSHSNAKE]

Another interesting read is the article linked below, what I got from it was the importance of hydration during brumation.


Effects of humidity, temperature, and submergence behavior on survivorship and energy use in hibernating garter snakes, Thamnophis sirtalis

Desiccation is likely an important factor influencing winter mortality rates of terrestrially hibernating reptiles; however, this notion has not been rigorously tested. Groups of eastern garter snakes (Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis) were matched for size and subsequently exposed to simulated hibernative conditions (5 or 12 °C, under different humidity regimes) during winter, for 165 days or until all group members expired. As garter snakes in some dens submerge during natural hibernation, an additional group was maintained in water at 5 °C. Snakes kept in air dehydrated and died (body water contents at death ranged from 62.1 to 67.8% of lean fresh mass), whereas snakes kept in water remained hydrated (median, 75.2%) and survived. Survival duration of air hibernators was inversely related to rate of mass loss, which in turn was strongly influenced by ambient humidity and temperature. Dehydration accounted for most of the mass lost in all air hibernators; however, owing to higher rates of nutrient consumption, mass loss was significantly greater in snakes kept at 12 °C (36%) than in snakes kept at 5 °C (29%). Changes in fat body and liver masses showed that snakes kept in air at 12 °C used the most energy whereas those kept in water at 5 °C used the least. Submerged hibernation behavior has significant survival value because under these conditions snakes remain hydrated during winter. Also, because submerged snakes conserve more stored energy during winter, their reproductive success may be enhanced when mating activities resume in early spring

https://www.units.miamioh.edu/cryolab/publications/documents/Costanzo88_CanJZoo.PDF

This is how people brumate their garters. Theyll give them a dry substrate and a water bowl and throw them in a fridge. Many find their garter snake living in the water bowl.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Not horrible but it is dangerous. It might be natural for some snakes but we have no idea how many wild snakes die from brumation. We certainly have had our share of knowledgeable breeders that have lost snakes for some unknown reason.
You have the Evolution and Ecology book dont you Steve. Go read the last paragraph on hibernation on page 113.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Not horrible but it is dangerous. It might be natural for some snakes but we have no idea how many wild snakes die from brumation. We certainly have had our share of knowledgeable breeders that have lost snakes for some unknown reason.

Infact...why dont you take a picture and post what it says for us, not all of us are knowledgable breeders like the people you know

[Peterra]

You have the Evolution and Ecology book dont you Steve. Go read the last paragraph on hibernation on page 113.

I do not have that book, can you let us know what it says, please? Very interested in the academic literature on garters et al similar to garters.

[Peterra]

This is how people brumate their garters. Theyll give them a dry substrate and a water bowl and throw them in a fridge. Many find their garter snake living in the water bowl.

Sorry but I do not follow what you are saying. That is an experiment describing several different protocols, all of them quite different than what you stated; nevertheless, maybe you can be more explicit about the temperature, humidity and other parameters that you use. Also, your number of successful repetitions of same conditions and same outcome will be illuminating.

On a different note, I think that we all want the same outcome, learning what is best for our snakes. So, I think we are all open to be proven wrong and learn something new and better, wouldn't that just make your and your snakes day?

[BUSHSNAKE]

I think there should be a "how to brumate your garters" thread

[Albert Clark]

Infact...why dont you take a picture and post what it says for us, not all of us are knowledgable breeders like the people you know Actually i read the paragraph you are referring to Joe and it says "juvenile snakes may follow adult pheromone trails to locate dens for the first time". Key words here are "juvenile" and "may". There is a difference between a 30 day old snake (neonate) and a "juvenile" 6mos. up to 1yr. old. Especially a 30 day old snake that probably has only had the number of meals you can count on one hand. We all know what we don't know Joe. No need to attack the knowledge or lack of in any case of anyone. "Juvenile" kind of refers to a animal who is also well started with adequate fat reserves and nutritionally stable. Other key word "may" denotes that a juvenile may or may not follow adult pheromone trails.

[Albert Clark]

I think there should be a "how to brumate your garters" thread Maybe you should be more specific and title it " How to brumate your 30 day old garter who is refusing meals". That is where the discussion and controversy lies in determining brumation over so many other possibilities for inappetance or feeding interruptions in 30 day old snakes.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Actually i read the paragraph you are referring to Joe and it says "juvenile snakes may follow adult pheromone trails to locate dens for the first time". Key words here are "juvenile" and "may". There is a difference between a 30 day old snake (neonate) and a "juvenile" 6mos. up to 1yr. old. Especially a 30 day old snake that probably has only had the number of meals you can count on one hand. We all know what we don't know Joe. No need to attack the knowledge or lack of in any case of anyone. "Juvenile" kind of refers to a animal who is also well started with adequate fat reserves and nutritionally stable. Other key word "may" denotes that a juvenile may or may not follow adult pheromone trails.
Wrong paragraph.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Update:
Nicole is still not eating but her skin has started to have a shine to it so maybe she has to shed? Her eyes haven't turned blue yet though. I don't think it has anything to do with desiccation because her terrarium stays at a constant 80f and 60-70% humidity w/ a large water bowl

If it doesnt start to eat soon i would still recommend giving it a cooling period. Not a full blone brumation like you would an adult but if you keep it at 80 degrees and its not eating it will start to dehydrate. You can simply take it off any heat. Keep it in a cool area and make sure it stays hydrated. Any snake born that late in the year can be a challenge cuz your fighting its natural insticts
I personally dont think brumation is dangerous. Ive never had many problems with it to the point that i wouldnt do it. It has helped in your type of situation. If done right it doesnt matter how old the snake is. Garters in general can be a pain in the butt. The do seem to have a higher mortality rate then other snakes but thats a part of keeping garter snakes and alot of the times has nothing to do with brumation.

[Albert Clark]

Wrong paragraph. It's the right paragraph as it pertains to the OP question on brumating a neonatal garter who only missed a couple of days between meals. Because Steve and i were all on the page that snake is too young and nutritionally not ready. If i understand you correctly you're saying age and nutritional status have no bearing on consideration to brumate in the captive terrarium?

[Albert Clark]

Bushsnake says "If done right it doesnt matter how old the snake is".

This statement cannot be true nor does it show consideration for fragile, baby snakes that don't have the nutritional stores to endure brumation.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Bushsnake says "If done right it doesnt matter how old the snake is".

This statement cannot be true nor does it show consideration for fragile, baby snakes that don't have the nutritional stores to endure brumation.
I stand by what i say cuz of experience. Do really think im gonna keep going back and forth with you? The conversation isnt going anywhere. I dont care if you dissagree with. If you have better suggestions then speek up

[Albert Clark]

I stand by what i say cuz of experience. Do really think im gonna keep going back and forth with you? The conversation isnt going anywhere. I dont care if you dissagree with. If you have better suggestions then speek up
And that's fine.... My suggestion to the OP has been documented early on in the thread. It was that brumation in the non feeding garter to stimulate and or reset the feeding clock is controversial. But often time not necessary. I know you have tons of experience Joe and i respect that but we have healthy differing opinions and points of view which are considerations for the people asking the questions.

[Eddie]

Guys, wild garters have no choice in this matter. It does not matter when they were born or what their condition is. If the temps drop they drop and the strong survive and the weak do not. I have tried many times to keep weak snakes alive in unnatural conditions. Sometimes it works and sometimes it does not. If you come across a snake that will not eat your best option is to take it off heat. No matter what the problem is taking it heat slows metabolism, slows dehydration and slows parasite growth in most cases. I wish the best of luck with this young snake but I would not hesitate to take it off heat starting now if it was in my care. Just my 2 cents.

[Albert Clark]

Guys, wild garters have no choice in this matter. It does not matter when they were born or what their condition is. If the temps drop they drop and the strong survive and the weak do not. I have tried many times to keep weak snakes alive in unnatural conditions. Sometimes it works and sometimes it does not. If you come across a snake that will not eat your best option is to take it off heat. No matter what the problem is taking it heat slows metabolism, slows dehydration and slows parasite growth in most cases. I wish the best of luck with this young snake but I would not hesitate to take it off heat starting now if it was in my care. Just my 2 cents.
This is understandable Eddie for sure. However, there is a difference from being in the wild and being captive. The animal has no choice in the wild, in the terrarium, the keeper controls conditions like feeding frequency, temperatures, humidity and shelter. A couple of days in between feeding is not a recipe to brumate a neonate snake who doesn't have the fat reserves to withstand cooling temps. Now you know I respect you and your experience but in this case I would have to wait the baby out and offer different foods, see if he's approaching a shed cycle, more time is needed here to reevaluate the animals response. Listen, maybe the little guy/ girl is still digesting his / her last meal. I'm ready to put this controversy to bed in any case. Thanks for weighing in.