feeding live pinkys??

[jasuncle1972]

Hello . Has anyone else fed there garters live pinkys? A coworker was cleaning up out side the shop and found a mouse nest w/ 4 babies. Itook them home and offered them to all three garters only one ate them, my female that just had a clutch.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I have fed mine live pinkies, its not a problem for larger ones, smaller ones ight have a little trouble with the pinkies fighting.

[Lee]

My adult female has eaten live rat pups on several occasions, a small live pinkie shouldn't be a struggle for them.

[jasuncle1972]

The female that did eat them ate all five. Since she's given birth she's had a ravenous appitite. My other female garter started to eat one but spat it out, funny thing is she'll eat f/t just fine. Maybe it was the smell orthat they were warm.

[adamanteus]

Personally, I would question the motives behind feeding live pinkies to your snakes, unless it is a temporary means to get the snake feeding. Don't you consider it unecessarily cruel, if the snake will just as readily accept dead food items?

[Lee]

Personally, I would question the motives behind feeding live pinkies to your snakes, unless it is a temporary means to get the snake feeding. Don't you consider it unecessarily cruel, if the snake will just as readily accept dead food items?
Lol uh oh... Live food debate?
Why do I on occasion feed live rat pups? Well, she feeds fine on F/T however I want to watch how my snake works in the wild. They are wandering garters, known to prey on rodents in the wild, what is more interesting than watching nature in action? Garters don't go find frozen mice, they gotta hunt them and catch them. It isn't cruel, its nature, its life. I know a lot of people feed live fish, if your going to say its cruel to the mice/rats why not cruel to feed live fish? seems just as bad???

[Stefan-A]

Well, some of us do feel that feeding them live fish is unnecessary, if the snake accepts dead ones. I don't think "nature" even enters into the discussion and I don't see how it could even be a valid argument. It's not really nature, is it? It's a tank with a snake and a rat pup (or a bowl of fish). That sounds more like baiting to me, with the odds being against the rat pup.

[Lulu Bennett]

i agree with stefan and james on this one. i have always disagreed with live baiting. its just crule.

[adamanteus]

I never went to the zoo and saw them throw a live zebra in with the lions!

[jasuncle1972]

Lol uh oh... Live food debate?
Why do I on occasion feed live rat pups? Well, she feeds fine on F/T however I want to watch how my snake works in the wild. They are wandering garters, known to prey on rodents in the wild, what is more interesting than watching nature in action? Garters don't go find frozen mice, they gotta hunt them and catch them. It isn't cruel, its nature, its life. I know a lot of people feed live fish, if your going to say its cruel to the mice/rats why not cruel to feed live fish? seems just as bad???
While I understand the reasoning behind feeding prekilled, I don't agree. What would our garter's eat in the wild? Most likely living food.When I feed my 4 snakes later today,( 3 garters, 1 ball python) they all get live food whether it be fish or a mouse. Here's another twist, I'm sure all of us have enjoyed meat of some sort what about the conditions it was raised in. I bet that said meat was kept very confined and not had very clean conditions in which to live and not really very humanely killed. So sorry for getting on a soap box I see it all as the circle of life.

[Edcase]

I never went to the zoo and saw them throw a live zebra in with the lions!

lol that would be amusin to see...the zoo keeper just throwing a zebra over the fence, not the actual eating.

I agree that it is the "circle of life" but with a CHOICE of dead and alive i would have to go with dead. I was a bit disgusted when my bro found a mouse and fed it to his trantula :eek: . Id seen the crickets etc get eaten by it but i guess i feel differenty bout bugs lol.

[CrazyHedgehog]

I think the reason is that in the wild, a mouse gets a fair chance at escaping.. in a tank there is not much space to run and hide,
but soap boxes aside then...
If the mouse is cornered, there is a chance it may fight back and bite your snake, you are more likely to lose the snake from infection as the bite may be too small to see at first until badly infected...

[Lee]

I think the reason is that in the wild, a mouse gets a fair chance at escaping.. in a tank there is not much space to run and hide,
but soap boxes aside then...
If the mouse is cornered, there is a chance it may fight back and bite your snake, you are more likely to lose the snake from infection as the bite may be too small to see at first until badly infected...
So lets say in the wild (just random numbers) a snake comes across 100 mice in its life that it attempts to catch and eat. It captures and eats 20 mice in its life. The other 80 escape. So instead of feeding it the 20 mice it would normally catch alive, we just throw out live prey all together. We take away its instincts to hunt and instead throw in a dead meal every now and then. ;*( I don't like this idea of yours.

[CrazyHedgehog]

Hey I didn't say I had all the answers, just a few reasons...
in the wild, a garter snake might bite and would always musk...I don't want my pets to do that all the time either!!
a lot of garters get eaten by birds in the wild, are you saying we should then feed a few of our garters to the birds in the garden, thus completing the circle?

[adamanteus]

This seems like an appropriate moment to point out that in the UK (and elsewhere?), the use of live rodents for feeding to snakes (and other animals) is illegal. The law sees it as being unnecessarily cruel. Who are we to argue?

As for taking away their instinct to hunt....that brings me back to the point I made about throwing live zebras to the lions in the zoo. Or letting your pet dog join the local pack and kill some of your neighbours.

It seems to me that if your snake will willingly accept dead animals, the use of live food is blood-thirsty and ghoulish, and simply done for sport.

[Elliot]

Keeping a snake in a cage isn't the circle of life. It's keeping an animal confined, out of it's natural habitat. And why would it need hunting instincts to find food in a small clear box? It's really hard to justify the use of live animals for food, especially if it eats dead animals.

[Serpentine99]

I highly doubt this is going to end in a straight forward answer that everyone's going to agree on.

We sure have alot of these debates don't we?

[ssssnakeluvr]

and thats a good thing...if everyone on this planet thought the same way and liked the same things, I'd be catching the next shuttle to another planet!! :cool:

[Serpentine99]

I think it's funny how quickly these debates start and how heated they become in such a short time.

It's also interesting to hear other peoples views and opinions that you may not have thought of yet.

[Elliot]

I hope it doesn't get to ugly, but live feeding may be one of the more "passionate" debates in snake keeping. :D

[Serpentine99]

I don't think it wil get ugly, It's just the forums way of expressing their feeling and beliefs in a healthy way.

[Stefan-A]

I doubt anybody is going to come up with a new argument for or against live feeding. :D Most of you have probably witnessed or participated in this debate before so it would be a complete waste of time to repeat it here or try to convince anybody. Personally, I'm satisfied with stating my own opinion and I don't expect it to really matter to anyone else.

I really don't care if the rodent has a chance of escaping and I think fairness is about as good an argument as the thought that it's natural or necessary for the snake. It's just my belief that minimizing suffering is the biggest priority. After making sure the snake is fed, of course. ;)


This seems like an appropriate moment to point out that in the UK (and elsewhere?), the use of live rodents for feeding to snakes (and other animals) is illegal. The law sees it as being unnecessarily cruel. Who are we to argue?
It's illegal here as well. But I don't have much faith in lawmakers, so I usually prefer to argue. ;)


I hope it doesn't get to ugly, but live feeding may be one of the more "passionate" debates in snake keeping. :D
Live feeding and hybrids.

[KITKAT]

I will leave all matters aside that deal with suffering of the mouse, etc. For me it is simple. Mouse colonies are sometimes found to carry cryptosporidium.:eek:

Frozen and thawed, and scented with minnows that are frozen and thawed. End of story. :rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

Can't kill crypto through freezing. ;)

I think.

Ok, so it kills most of them, but not all.

[drache]

okay
here's my opinion
I don't think my mostly c/b snakes need to exercise their killing instincts
I also don't believe the mice are suffering anywhere near as much as kind hearted souls fear they do
I feed f/t because it seems cleaner and it certainly is a heck of a lot more convenient

[jasuncle1972]

Well who would have thought I'd creat three pages of thread from feeding my garters baby mice. Thanks for all opinions and input. I've lately thought about why I keep the garters I have( Iv'e felt kinda down ) and this is what I've come up with. I keep garters as pets to learn about a new creature that is tipically thought of as nasty and icky, that if observed is really qiute fasinating in its' behavior and food choices,and wiil influence my career choice in college.:)

[adamanteus]

Good debate. I don't think it was ever in danger of becoming "nasty". People have their own opinions, and they're entitled to them, it's always interesting to hear how other people feel on a subject. That's one of the things I love about this forum...we can strongly disagree with each other without losing mutual respect.:)

[Thamnophis]

Personally, I would question the motives behind feeding live pinkies to your snakes, unless it is a temporary means to get the snake feeding. Don't you consider it unecessarily cruel, if the snake will just as readily accept dead food items?

I agree with James.Garter snakes are not good killers. And every living creature should not suffer if it can be prevented. When I can kill a prey faster than the predator and there is no need for feeding alive, I will do the killing.

[Edcase]

If "killer instinct" mattered so much then surely the local park would be full of people with guns and spears hunting for a squirel or two for dinner. And also if my Garters could speak...bare with me....im sure they would tell me they prefer a nice easy/lazy meal then having to kill there own, if there anything like me anyway.

[infernalis]

I never went to the zoo and saw them throw a live zebra in with the lions!


James, This has to be one of the most clever responses I have read in a long time.

Bravo!

I actually smiled:D

On a serious note, Unlike milk snakes, Corns, kings, (Most other Colubrids) and boids, Garters do not constrict and kill prey first, they just swallow.... It may be "nature" but really, theres no point in it in a captive enviroment.

Excellent thread.

[snakeman]

I would be more worried about what parasites you are exposing your snakes to by feeding wild live pinkies to your snakes.I am assuming they were not bought at a pet shop.

[infernalis]

A coworker was cleaning up out side the shop and found a mouse nest w/ 4 babies. Itook them home and offered them to all three garters only one ate them, my female that just had a clutch.


That would have been my impression Tom.


I would be more worried about what parasites you are exposing your snakes to by feeding wild live pinkies to your snakes.I am assuming they were not bought at a pet shop.

I agree with you there. I can locate mouse nests in my back yard any day, I just leave them be.

My (wild) Eastern milks need to eat too.

[prattypus]

Being lazy, I didn't read all four pages, but wanted to toss out my two cents. Mine go for the F/T pinkies and tilapia, but on the occastion that they get some guppies, they go in with a bowl of water, as they will not go after still fish.

[snakeman]

live fish,live pinks what's the difference?good point prattypus.

[mtolypetsupply]

Parasites and diseases aside, I don't see a problem with feeding the mice found in a human-inhabitated area to the snake. Having been around barns and horses for nigh on 30 years, I've seen many mouse nests deliberately crushed with the heel of a boot. To me, that is cruel and a waste of food. (PS- the barn cats no longer got so much Meow Mix available to them after the humans found the nests.)

Taking parasites and disease into account, I'd just put them outside for the predators.

That's just me though.

[Stefan-A]

Parasites and diseases aside, I don't see a problem with feeding the mice found in a human-inhabitated area to the snake.
Ingested poisons and other toxic substances they may have come in contact with. You have no control over what they eat. If you want to use wild rodents, you're better off catching them far from any human-inhabited areas, which sort of prevents the use of wild house mice. There was even a story in a recent issue of a local gun magazine about a case where mice had actually chewed on wax-covered lead bullets. The interesting thing was that there were no pieces of lead left lying around, so the mice must have actually swallowed the lead. Frankly, mice will chew on and eat anything and there's plenty of harmful stuff in human-inhabited areas.

[mtolypetsupply]

Ingested poisons and other toxic substances they may have come in contact with. You have no control over what they eat. If you want to use wild rodents, you're better off catching them far from any human-inhabited areas, which sort of prevents the use of wild house mice. There was even a story in a recent issue of a local gun magazine about a case where mice had actually chewed on wax-covered lead bullets. The interesting thing was that there were no pieces of lead left lying around, so the mice must have actually swallowed the lead. Frankly, mice will chew on and eat anything and there's plenty of harmful stuff in human-inhabited areas.


Sorry, I should have clarified. I should have said something to the effect of, "Contaminants of any kind aside, I have no ethical problems with feeding...."

I see how feeding wild caught anything could be problematic. But I have no problem feeding live pinkies, even with f/t being readily available.

[drache]

I don't have terribly much of a problem with other people feeding live pinks, if that's their vice of choice
I myself tried it once because I had a non-feeding snake, but neither the non-feeder, nor most of my other snakes were interested in their food being that fresh, so I was stuck with a handful of little rodents I had no accommodations for and who were complaining vociferously - it was awful
fortunately, the one snake who was willing to eat them, was hungry enough to eat them all
I wouldn't put the feeding of live prey quite in the same category as dog-fighting, and yet I do believe it to be a spectator thing, rather than anything that benefits the snake

[infernalis]

A point I'd like to bring up, mice found close to humans may have already eaten from decon bait blocks, not worth the risk to me.

On another note, having been breeding mice for a year now, I could never use poison or traps again, I prefer to make my "area" less mouse friendly, so they will chose to be somewhere else instead.

[guidofatherof5]

Imagine the delight a Garter feels when it comes across a nest of pinkies(all you can eat buffet). The way mine gobble them down I can just imagine.
It also makes me think of the positive human invironmental impact these snakes have. Since so many of them live in close proximity to us they must really help keep the mouse population in check. I'm sure a med. size Garter could eat a nest of pinkies without too much trouble.

It's just another reason for use to protect them. I know how I feel about the wild mice who come into my home and having Garters eat them is a safe,clean way to get rid of them.
"Thamnophis to the rescue"

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Okay, I don't have time to write it all out, so naturally I will copy and paste from another thread a little excerpt about my view on live feeding. I feel very strongly about this topic and am glad this thread got re-opened. And may I add that the fact that it illegal to feed live prey in the UK is no good. Some snakes simply must be started on live food.... there must be a lot of law breakers out there!




Snakes are captive yes, and are obviously treated as such, seeing as they are not free to roam as they please. But, they are not domestic, hence their special requirements... sure, the glass box is not natural... BUT...the heat, the substrate, the lighting, the hiding places... we do those things because it replicates what IS natural because that is the only way our reptile will feel completely comfortable...and I don't see why food has to be any different. Your dog is more than happy to curl up on the sofa with you sqeak a rubber toy and eat cooked processed kibble...which is incredibly NOT what a dog is supposed to eat... which they have unfortunately adapted to eating. Your dog does not need you to provide for him a small forest and a den to be happy. He is domesticated and there is different treatment for animals that are domestic, and captive. Captive animals ranging from wild dogs to snakes to insects often have to be convinced to try an already dead animal in the first place. Just because they will adapt to it does not mean it's best for them and their prey. Snakes, for the most part, only accept f/t prey because they have figured out that it's that or nothing. Much like a bearded dragon made to eat pellets would still MUCH rather have real vegetables and fruits. Domestication does nothing but weaken and distort the genetics until you get a totally inferior animal to it's wild counterpart... so why try to do it with reptiles? F/t is only the beginning of alienating snakes from their wild conterparts..... but I suppose I can deal with it. BUT, Let's put it this way.... the day they start trying to commercialize snake food (and its already on the way with disgusting snake sausages), I am OUT!! people try to personify their animals and try to reason that further separation from their instinct is what's best... but is it really... or is that just what's best in OUR interests and need to feel like we are doing some good and right?

Is death by Carbon Dioxide in a dark box REALLY a better, more relaxing, happier death? Who are we to really decide... none of us have ever died to feel it. In both euthanasia AND death by snake.... the victim is still going unconcious and suffocating. Death by snake is quicker than the other, that's for sure. It takes a few minutes for an animal to die from co2... They lay there and gasp and gasp yet there is no relief and they have to miserably sit and wait for it to end... it takes under a minute for an animal to go unconcious and die when being wrapped by a snake thanks to the complete stopping of bloodflow. I would take that death any day.

[Stefan-A]

Okay, I don't have time to write it all out, so naturally I will copy and paste from another thread a little excerpt about my view on live feeding. I feel very strongly about this topic and am glad this thread got re-opened. And may I add that the fact that it illegal to feed live prey in the UK is no good. Some snakes simply must be started on live food.... there must be a lot of law breakers out there!
You know, I had actually planned to respond to several of your posts in that thread, I even saved my reply as a .txt, like I sometimes do when I decide for one reason or another to leave things unsaid. Here's the segment, that was intended to respond to that particular post of yours, with some minor modifications. Without the context of the first 2/3 of the original text, it's probably going to seem exceptionally random.


Snakes are captive yes, and are obviously treated as such, seeing as they are not free to roam as they please. But, they are not domestic, hence their special requirements... sure, teh glass box is not natural... BUT...the heat, the substrate, the lighting, the hiding places... we do those things because it replicates what IS natural because that is the only way our reptile will feel completely comfortable... I'm not convinced that they feel completely comfortable in the wild or in captivity. Nature still is their biggest killer. What we do for them in captivity is not for their comfort, but for their survival. Since we don't know if they are comfortable at any point, what we're left with are the things that keep them alive and healthy.


and I don't see why food has to be any different. Your dog is more than happy to curl up on the sofa with you sqeak a rubber toy and eat cooked processed kibble...which is incredibly NOT what a dog is supposed to eat... which they have unfortunately adapted to eating. Your dog does not need you to provide for him a small forest and a den to be happy. He is domesticated and there is different treatment for animals that are domestic, and captive.According to studies conducted some 30-40 years ago, even our domesticated animals don't lose their natural instincts that readily, so the distinction between domesticated and captive is pretty arbitrary. In other words, domestication is a bit of a misnomer. Sure, we've selectively bred them to a point where they seem like they would not make it without us, but even several thousand years of "domestication" doesn't erase the drive to hunt or dig dens, which is obvious from the fact that every one of our domesticated animals has been able to form feral populations as well.


Domestication does nothing but weaken and distort the genetics until you get a totally inferior animal to it's wild counterpart... Once the wolves have gone extinct, there will still be hundreds of millions of dogs in the world. By what measure would dogs be inferior, if not by their ability to survive?


so why try to do it with reptiles? F/t is only the beginning of alienating snakes from their wild conterparts.....Why would it matter if they became as alienated from their wild counterparts, as dogs or cats, for example? How alienated are dogs from their wild counterparts, by the way?


people try to personify their animals and try to reason that further separation from their instinct is what's best... but is it really... or is that just what's best in OUR interests and need to feel like we are doing some good and right?If rendering the old instincts obsolete (is that even what happens?) is the byproduct of a change in conditions that improves their survival rate, why object to it? As I see it, good and right don't enter into it, especially since they aren't obvious in cases like this.


Is death by Carbon Dioxide in a dark box REALLY a better, more relaxing, happier death? Who are we to really decide... none of us have ever died to feel it.You don't have to die to feel it, it can be tested although not safely. But who is to decide if not us?


In both euthanasia AND death by snake.... the victim is still going unconcious and suffocating. Death by snake is quicker than the other, that's for sure. It takes a few minutes for an animal to die from co2... They lay there and gasp and gasp yet there is no relief and they have to miserably sit and wait for it to end... it takes under a minute for an animal to go unconcious and die when being wrapped by a snake thanks to the complete stopping of bloodflow. I would take that death any day. It took my mice between 3 and 20 seconds to go unconscious and at no point were any teeth penetrating their skin, the breath wasn't physically squeezed out of them and they weren't swallowed alive, either. Neither did they risk dying a slow death at the hands (pun) of a snake that just didn't quite get the coils right, that didn't get enough venom into its prey, or that simply doesn't kill its prey before swallowing it. That last one sounds incredibly familiar, have you heard of any snake that doesn't kill its prey by constricting it or by envenomating it?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

You know, I had actually planned to respond to several of your posts in that thread, I even saved my reply as a .txt, like I sometimes do when I decide for one reason or another to leave things unsaid. Here's the segment, that was intended to respond to that particular post of yours, with some minor modifications. Without the context of the first 2/3 of the original text, it's probably going to seem exceptionally random.

I'm not convinced that they feel completely comfortable in the wild or in captivity. Nature still is their biggest killer. What we do for them in captivity is not for their comfort, but for their survival. Since we don't know if they are comfortable at any point, what we're left with are the things that keep them alive and healthy.

According to studies conducted some 30-40 years ago, even our domesticated animals don't lose their natural instincts that readily, so the distinction between domesticated and captive is pretty arbitrary. In other words, domestication is a bit of a misnomer. Sure, we've selectively bred them to a point where they seem like they would not make it without us, but even several thousand years of "domestication" doesn't erase the drive to hunt or dig dens, which is obvious from the fact that every one of our domesticated animals has been able to form feral populations as well.

Once the wolves have gone extinct, there will still be hundreds of millions of dogs in the world. By what measure would dogs be inferior, if not by their ability to survive?

Why would it matter if they became as alienated from their wild counterparts, as dogs or cats, for example? How alienated are dogs from their wild counterparts, by the way?

If rendering the old instincts obsolete (is that even what happens?) is the byproduct of a change in conditions that improves their survival rate, why object to it? As I see it, good and right don't enter into it, especially since they aren't obvious in cases like this.

You don't have to die to feel it, it can be tested although not safely. But who is to decide if not us?

It took my mice between 3 and 20 seconds to go unconscious and at no point were any teeth penetrating their skin, the breath wasn't physically squeezed out of them and they weren't swallowed alive, either. Neither did they risk dying a slow death at the hands (pun) of a snake that just didn't quite get the coils right, that didn't get enough venom into its prey, or that simply doesn't kill its prey before swallowing it. That last one sounds incredibly familiar, have you heard of any snake that doesn't kill its prey by constricting it or by envenomating it?

I simply dont have time to respond to everything right now stefan, as I need to get to bed, but for one every time i look at an english bulldog, the genetic inferiority in dogs to wolves is apparent. Thank god the day they are roaming the earth free, I will be dead.

I absolutely considered thamnophis, nerodia, drymarchon and others when making the post that they eat by over powering, but the fact is that I did not feel like getting into that, it woudl ahve been a whole 'nother paragraph and I was making a general statement about snakes eating at the time and the fact that most pet snakes kill their prey first. Either way, my opinion remains unchanged and I will continue to feel the way that I do. I don't go out of my way to feed live, ever, in fact any prey i feed is killed before it's fed anyways, save for that rare snake that won't have it any other way. I still don't see any problem with those who choose to do it provided they do it with all the knowledge available to them.

[infernalis]

You know, I had actually planned to respond to several of your posts in that thread, I even saved my reply as a .txt, like I sometimes do when I decide for one reason or another to leave things unsaid. Here's the segment...

So I am not the only one;) That is scary familiar, I save so much stuff that transpires here it's not even funny.

Now the one thing I do wish to point out, I have never seen a Thamnophis "constrict" its prey, it has always been observed by me swallowing it's food live, and often can be observed with live food still thrashing in it's stomach.

One of the Blacknecks that died ate a salamander that was later regurgitated only to begin running around in the enclosure some time later.

However, once again, as has been pointed out within this thread, Between the parasites and possible ingestion of mouse "blocks" feeding W/C pinkies should be deterrent enough that any sensible snake keeper would not consider it.

The initial posting to this thread reads....


A coworker was cleaning up out side the shop and found a mouse nest w/ 4 babies. Itook them home and offered them to all three garters only one ate them, my female that just had a clutch.

[drache]

I don't know that even death by constriction or venom is fast
didn't it say they found a ton of defense injuries on that boy that was eaten by some big boid?
but I have to say, getting swallowed alive has got to be worse than dying while fighting

[infernalis]

I have to agree Rhea, We once very ignorantly purchased a live pinky for my corn when he was a baby, Cy had no interest in feeding, so I (stupidly) put the pinky in our freezer.

Later when I checked, I was quite shocked to have found the evidence that the poor thing suffered terribly before it finally expired.

I feel TONS better selling my mice to the pet trade and using the money to buy bulk bags of "flash frozen" pinks.

They are frozen so fast, they expire quicker than C02 chambers ever could perform, and are already dead before I have to see them.

Initially it was James' clever Zebra reply that prompted me to resurrect this thread, I laughed at him, even if it was an old reply.;):D


I never went to the zoo and saw them throw a live zebra in with the lions!

Even if I have stared in fascination watching "wild kingdom" or Animal Planet specials depicting just that!

[drache]

the fact that garters have been observed eating road kill, leads me somehow to believe that they're more interested in eating and survival in a general sense, than living out their wild nature in a specific way
I think humans have lots of fanciful ideas about that wild nature stuff, and perhaps there is some yearning to experience something "wild" or to return to something
I'm not sure why watching something get killed tends to be the aspect of the wild people are often most interested in - must be some Freudian thing
or perhaps it's the only "wild" thing we have sufficient control over to actually "make" happen?
these are just some musings
and I too have written lengthy posts and then not posted them
as I stated earlier - I don't have a big emotional charge around this issue, but I question the idea that live food could be in any way more beneficial than pre-killed

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

my point was merely that snakes who swallow their prey live make up a tiny percentage of snakes overall, to a point that it was not worth mentioning for another paragraph. most snakes kill their prey first. I still don't see anything wrong with it, and I never will! My opinion on live feeding will never change...

and no, I would never feed wild caught mice to my snakes.

[ssssnakeluvr]

Now the one thing I do wish to point out, I have never seen a Thamnophis "constrict" its prey, it has always been observed by me swallowing it's food live, and often can be observed with live food still thrashing in it's stomach.



vagrans are known to grab a mouse and wrap a coil or 2 around them....don't actually constrict and suffocate the mouse, but do hold it so they can eat and also helps restrain the mouse while the saliva mildly sedates the mouse....I have seen this myself with some wild caught vagrans.

[Loren]

I feed live, frozen/thawed, or fresh killed to my snakes.

[infernalis]

vagrans are known to grab a mouse and wrap a coil or 2 around them....don't actually constrict and suffocate the mouse, but do hold it so they can eat and also helps restrain the mouse while the saliva mildly sedates the mouse....I have seen this myself with some wild caught vagrans.

my only vagrans is still a baby, but man does it eat.

[Elliot]

my only vagrans is still a baby, but man does it eat.

Mine isn't a baby, and it resembles a black hole when it's fed. :eek: Pinkies are way too small, so I think I'm going to move it to fuzzies or hoppers seeing as how it can take 3 pinkies a feeding.

[infernalis]

She's almost ready for pinks....

[Stefan-A]

I still don't see anything wrong with it, and I never will! My opinion on live feeding will never change...
And why is that?

[snakeman]

I can't believe this thread generated 6 pages.I am all for feeding lions live zebras.If they are going to keep them in cages at least let them have some fun.I am not a big fan of zoos.Certain animals do not belong in cages in my opinion,which is all this thread is about.Peoples opinions.There is no right or wrong in feeding live or dead.

[infernalis]

I can't believe this thread generated 6 pages.I am all for feeding lions live zebras.If they are going to keep them in cages at least let them have some fun.I am not a big fan of zoos.Certain animals do not belong in cages in my opinion,which is all this thread is about.Peoples opinions.There is no right or wrong in feeding live or dead.

I have mixed feelings on the Zoo subject Tom, Some species are so close to extinction that Zoos play an important role in species preservation, for that I say hell yeah.

On the other side of that double edge sword is the animals that should have been left in the natural environment, but I think that bears and raccoons, etc.. help to bolster attendance and educate the public, thus providing funds for preservation and helps teach people why it is important to do our part.

Further, many of the "common" animals found in zoos are either rehabilitated or seized animals that stand a better chance for survival in a captive environment, Like eagles that have been shot in the wing by some moron with a .22, or I know personally of a red fox that had been a "pet" and later dumped off in the median of interstate 4 near Orlando, the creep who had this fox as a "pet" severed it's tail and hung it from his rear view mirror, and was subsequently arrested as a concerned citizen wrote down his license plate numbers as it happened.

In a certain way we are all somewhat selfish, we keep wild animals captive for our own personal pleasure.


my point was merely that snakes who swallow their prey live make up a tiny percentage of snakes overall, to a point that it was not worth mentioning for another paragraph.

Shannon, please note that this is a Garter snake forum, hence the name "Thamnophis.com" and with that in mind, our primary topics of discussion are supposed to be Thamnophis. and that "small percentage" of snakes you mention in your reply are quite simply the very snakes we are supposed to be discussing here on a garter snake forum.


My opinion on live feeding will never change.


And why is that?

Here I agree (once more) with Stefan, Opinions should always be subject to change, it marks growth and learning.


Thankfully I save text files of everything, The forum had a DNS gateway failure just as I hit "submit reply"....copy/paste rules!

[drache]

I'm still not convinced that eating live prey is more "fun" for animals
to me that is just somebody's fantasy
nobody has ever measured pleasure waves in snakes' brains, and they don't smile or wag their tails
while it is true that many wild caught snakes may not recognize dead food, just as many do and readily take it
when a snake readily takes dead food and you decide live is more fun, who's fun are you talking about?
again - disclaimer:
I have absolutely no problem feeding live when the snakes survival or even health is at stake, but beyond that I consider it unnecessary
so, I wonder - do people actually seriously consider it necessary for their snake to have that particular kind of "fun"?
I mean - whatever floats your boat, man, but I hope you understand that the snake having "fun" is - after retyping about twenty times - delusion? serious denial? rationalization?
what I mean to say is that it's your stuff and leave the snake out of it

[Stefan-A]

I can't believe this thread generated 6 pages.I am all for feeding lions live zebras.If they are going to keep them in cages at least let them have some fun.
What about the zebras?

Besides, it's probably not much fun for the lions to have jaws, legs or ribs broken by live zebras' hooves. And definitely not in their best interest.

[infernalis]

What about the zebras?

Isn't being torn apart by lions fun?:rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

Isn't being torn apart by lions fun?:rolleyes:
Make it a cape buffalo and it'll be more even.

[drache]

additionally
with snakes eating rather infrequently, that moment of fun has to go a long way
with the lion . . . well, how much running does he get to do after the zebra? it just doesn't seem that much fun if that damn zebra is trapped to begin with and you can't do that whole strategic hunting thing with your pride and all that
but I do think that if you're keeping your snakes in a rack system, truly, that moment of fun when they get to look eye to eye with that rat and go "it's you or me, baby" and "let's get that sucker quick, before he bites me" - if that's the only fun they ever get, then you should most definitely feed your snake live rodents
I am not one of those unreasonable folk who believe you should deprive your poor captives of their once a week chance to have some fun and a nice adrenalin rush

[snakeman]

First of all snakes don't have fun they don't have anything.They are emotionless creatures.Big cats do have fun.You can look at the cat you may have around your house.Give him a live mouse to play with.Trust me he is going to have fun once he subdues it.I don't feed my snakes live.I was talking about cats.If you don't think cats have fun killing their prey YOU are delusional.Who cares if someone feeds live or dead.

[Stefan-A]

Well, the best thing to do here is still to avoid anthropomorphising animals and just stick to what we actually know. That goes for snakes, big and small cats, mice and zebras.

[snakeman]

I'm going to find me a live cow and eat it!

[drache]

did anyone here see "Man on Wire"?
this guy's idea of fun was walking on a wire between the WTC towers
fun is a human concept and we can't even always with certainty tell whether another human is having fun or not
when we assume we know what animals are experiencing and that it looks like what we are experiencing, we are likely to be even more off the mark, even if it is another mammal - what looks like play to you, may be serious business to them or just something they do

[brain]

I was talking about cats. If you don't think cats have fun killing their prey YOU are delusional. Who cares if someone feeds live or dead.

I can send videos of this fun time to watch. :D:D:D

We have four cats two in and two out. We got Bodgee and Shashe, the outside cats, as three week old kittens and taught them how to hunt by using live mice and now (two yrs old) they keep the rat and gophers in check around here.

Bodgee will eat anything so will Shashe only she like to play with it first … too funny to watch.

[drache]

did you know that "playing" with the food (if it's alive that is) alters it's chemistry and flavour?
and yes, it's heaps of fun to watch
if I could experience my body this way, I'm pretty sure that would be very cool fun for me, and in a way I do and it is when I'm watching
looking forward to your vids, but I have cats of my own, and I still cannot tell whether they are experiencing what I think of as fun, when I'm having fun experiencing their hunting behaviors

[palmeb]

Thats a totaly different topic I have had snakes for years and all of my snake have eaten live prey its more natural and garter snake eat helpless prey

[d_virginiana]

I think you found a long-dead thread here :rolleyes: