Blue puget roadblock....

[Albert Clark]

After taking my pair of blue pugets out of a 3.5 month brumation 3 days ago my male breeder has presented with complications. He appeared to be suffering from various forms of posturing and twirling and also had a severe head tilt. He was okay out of brumation the first day crawling normally with no apparent issues. The next day was when i noticed this behavior and recognized it as possible thiamine deficiency called the vet and went in asap. My suspicion was confirmed by the vet and the poor guy was given a thiamine injection and we were sent home with two more injections to be administered 3 days apart. His prognosis is suspect and right now he still has some neurological issues. Crawling sideways, backwards, and also he still seems to have a slight head tilt. Totally unexpected and surprised as he was on a rodent / smelt diet during his quarantine and prior to being conditioned for brumation. I will update his progress going forward. :confused: I believe this post should be in the "urgent care" section but since this was a favored breeding project i thought it would be appropriate to place it here. If you care to move it , that's fine.

[guidofatherof5]

Keep us posted on this situation. How did the Vet. diagnose Thiaminase deficiency?

[Albert Clark]

Firstly it was history of present illness, physical exam and blood panel. The real sad part is there is a possibility of blindness in his case as it probably existed prior to brumation as per the doctor but bc of the cooling temps it didn't manifest until the temps were increased. The exotic vets at the centers for avian and exotics are the best..

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for the info.

[Albert Clark]

Thanks for the info. Sure. He is showing signs of improvement by righting himself at times and not crawling backwards anymore. The twirling and head tilt are still present. The next week to 10 days will be telling. The female is fine and looks very healthy. I will get some pics up tomorrow of both of them. My other projects all look promising. He is due for injection #2 on Tuesday, fingers crossed. Thanks, I will update.

[Albert Clark]

This is his presentation tonight. Going forward will be tough....144331443414435Time will tell...

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I hate to hear this albert!

[Albert Clark]

I hate to hear this albert! Thanks Shawn! I hate to see it, can you imagine? He does seem better today with his pace quickening up as he was prior. Always had the super speed initially so i've seen a improvement there. Offered food (pinky) but he wouldn't take it. Doctor said she expected that but it would be wise to tube feed the "Carnivore Care" starting tonight with vitamin B complex 1ml .
He still twirls and has the head tilt but is definitely crawling in a forward rectilinear motion. Keeping the female in the tub with him as a tactile stimulant. Fingers and toes crossed moving forward.

[sirtalis01]

This really sux Al...hope he gets better..

[Albert Clark]

This really sux Al...hope he gets better... Yep. Thanks for the support J. It's been a hard pill to swallow for sure. Totally unexpected and acute. One day after being brought out of brumation was the start of it. At least he was treated immediately so the best chance at recovery was given. I really don't get it. Sad, really sad.

[Albert Clark]

14440Tonight... Staying upright more often than not. Intermittent twirling still present and basic disorientation when crawling.

[Eddie]

So sorry to hear this. It actually sounds like it might be from dehydration during brumation. You could try soaking him but I'm not a vet. Good luck bud!!

[Albert Clark]

So sorry to hear this. It actually sounds like it might be from dehydration during brumation. You could try soaking him but I'm not a vet. Good luck bud!! Thanks Eddie! Yep! For sure there is a element of dehydration and part of his therapy is tube feedings. I have been soaking him but surely I can do that more frequently. Thanks again. He was always a slim garter as males.usually are. His weight loss was actually minimal, at around 4 grams. Thanks again for weighing in and the suggestion.

[Albert Clark]

Well, 2nd injection of B1 given this afternoon. His behavior is much more animated but he still is favoring one side over the other with intermittent flipping. The favoring of one side or actually leaning to one side is indicative of the depletion of thiamine and it's effect on the myelin sheaths in the central nervous system and the neurons. He is super active but is visibly affected still. The vets say it's a time factor consideration on the question of recovery and or disability. Keep you posted.

[Tommytradix]

sorry to hear this al. i know how bad you wanted this project to go forward and how hard you worked. did you have water in the fridge with him? a lot of mine soak during brumation. i fed smelt a few years ago but i was having the same types of problem cause of the thiamin in them. those symtems also sound alot like thermal shock. hope he gets well soon and the female holds off until hes better

[Albert Clark]

sorry to hear this al. i know how bad you wanted this project to go forward and how hard you worked. did you have water in the fridge with him? a lot of mine soak during brumation. i fed smelt a few years ago but i was having the same types of problem cause of the thiamin in them. those symtems also sound alot like thermal shock. hope he gets well soon and the female holds off until hes better Thank you Tommy, i appreciate the sentiments. Yes, i did have quite a bit of time, hope and determination in this project for sure. Best laid plans are always subject to fate though. I did have water in the tubs in the refrigerator but didn't mist them too frequently. The thiamine deficiency was confirmed by the vets. Certainly could be other elements of illness although the posturing, abnormal crawling, and inabilty to navigate the terrarium kind of sealed the diagnosis from the vets perspective. Bloodwork was the definitive diagnosis as well. The treatments so far have helped but the more i see of his movements and neurological presentation i can't help but think there is permanent disability in his future. Almost sure he will survive but his quality of life is very uncertain. Thanks for all your help and concern. It's very nice to have the support.

[Albert Clark]

Not a whole lot positive to report on guys. 3rd thiamine injection scheduled for today. His presentation is essentially the same. Still soaking twice a day, tube feedings every three days and observation. FIngers and toes crossed. Reached out to Steven Bol who reported that he was feeding primarily smelt but he added vitamin b1 every time. I know he had pinky mice and smelt with me. Steven feels they can make 100% recovery but each case has its own variables as far as that goes. Ughhh.

[Albert Clark]

Third thiamine injection in...sometimes he appears better than others but I don't know if it's just me wanting to see improvement. Soaking , observation, and cessation of the tube feeding for now is the plan going forward. Time over the next week will determine a lot. He is still symptomatic with a abnormal crawl and head tilt. The corkscrewing seems to have stopped. Revisit vet on Tuesday. Thanks guys.

[Albert Clark]

Hey guys, same presentation by the blue puget male. Lateralizing signs with the head tilt and abnormal forward crawling coupled with intermittent corkscrewing. He seems to be interested in the female but just can't coordinate the appropriate positioning. Very difficult to watch this and I feel his quality of life is at a standstill. Vet visit tomorrow and I am not happy about what I think i will hear.

[guidofatherof5]

Best of luck, keep us posted.

[Albert Clark]

Best of luck, keep us posted. Thanks Steve. Means alot. Will do.

[Albert Clark]

Well, I was about to pack up and secure the puget male in a container for the vet revisit and saw him courting the female who just shed. I couldn't believe this and ran to call the vet and grab my camera...14444I don't know if this pairing will take but I love it. Amazing what a little prayer will do.

[Albert Clark]

The vet says the fact that he is breeding the female is therapeutic and will bode well in his recovery. She says don't worry about feeding him, soaking or disturbing them at this point. It's still pretty apparent that he's having difficulty navigating his movements but this is very promising.

[Albert Clark]

These were a couple others.....1444714448

[Eddie]

That is great news!!!!

[Albert Clark]

That is great news!!!!. Yes! Totally did not expect him to court, mate, and lock with the female. She really dragged him around the tub for awhile. Especially that timing. Looks like a great step in the right direction. Still has a head tilt and lateralizing crawl although it appears less severe today.

[Albert Clark]

The male took a fish scented rat pinky on his own today and off the tongs! Unbelievable! The female had some stuck shed on her tail that i had missed and so i put her in a tub to soak and it all came off.

[Eddie]

Happy to hear!!

[Albert Clark]

Happy to hear!! Thank you Eddie! He still has the head tilt and abnormal crawling as well with intermittent corkscrewing. Bittersweet I guess.

[Albert Clark]

Appears that blue puget male will be living with a disability seeing as the vets feel 90 -95% of the turnaround to this disease is seen within days to a week to 10 days post treatment. All his movements seem to be focused to the right side with the head tilt and occaisional corkscrewing which is visible when he wants to change direction. Eating and drinking on his own though so that's a plus. There will be a permanent disability for sure and it remains to be seen how he will adapt overall. Definitely not heritable so any scrubs produced should be healthy. Couldn't believe this guy weighs 170 gms. and is 27 inches long. Longer than the female almost! Thanks guys.

[guidofatherof5]

Time will tell whether the stress of the disability will cause problems. Hope he lives a long life and helps produce many scrubs.

[Albert Clark]

Time will tell whether the stress of the disability will cause problems. Hope he lives a long life and helps produce many scrubs.

Thanks Steve. Yes, we'll see how he does moving forward. I thought he was going to have to be put down just before the vet visit last week and the breeding. He does have more normal crawling when he's relaxed. Then other times , as when I reach into the tub to clean and change water he gets stressed and starts crawling very fast and awkward. The corkscrewing also is still a issue intermittently.

[Albert Clark]

14672So, it's been some time since I posted about my male blue puget who suffered quite a bit previously with the thiamine deficiency disease. He is doing a lot better now but has a permanent disability. He's eating , drinking, eliminating. Shedding has been normal and in one piece so far. The disability is a permanent head tilt and the occasional abnormal crawling and corkscrewing. Some days are better than others for him and me. On a much lighter note, he successfully secured his legacy by producing 3 amazing scrubs from his pairing. 7 babies originally produced but 4 stills. This is a pic of 2 of the male puget blue scrubs.

[Albert Clark]

Sorry for the poor quality pic. I will post a couple better ones later. Thanks guys. The male parent as already a proven breeder when I acquired him from Steven Bol overseas. But now his legacy continues here in America. :)