severe weight loss in baby checkered garter that refuses to eat

[astraltressa]

I Have a checkered garter that is around 6 months old, I got it at about a month old.. For about 2 months it hasn't really been eating anything I've given it. I tried tilapia, trout, and pinkie mice. It will just sniff and slither away.

I was worried that it would pass away because it's a baby and so tiny, it can't afford to skip so many meals. So I've began to assist feed because that is really the only way it will eat. I hate doing that because it seems to cause it so much stress and makes it not like me, but if I didn't assist feed I assure you it wouldn't eat at all!

It has lost so much weight to the point that the skin is loose and will fold and you can tell it has no meat. At this point I'm not sure what to do! I keep a warm side with a hide at around 75F, and a cool side with a pool. Before this, it ate relatively well. it mostly ate tilapia, because that's what the breeder fed it before me. I'm not sure what to do to get it to eat normally. Could there be an underlying cause?

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear about this situation. There is only so much you can do. If it's a situation like "failure to thrive" there isn't much you can do. Developmentally something isn't right in the little one. I'll post a YT video I did on troubled eaters. I hope it helps. The problem with losing so much muscle it causes organ damage and the future is dim. Please keep us post on this situation.

1O36FMumumg

[Albert Clark]

Non feeding snakes is something we all go through as keepers. It's very important to monitor the temps and humidity in the enclosure as that can be a cause of the inappetance. What type of enclosure is the animal living in? Also, is this a wild caught snake or captive bred? There are a couple of different considerations in both. Firstly, I think you should consider raising the warm side temperature to the mid 80's bc 75F is a bit low for a warm side.

[Albert Clark]

Another consideration in a snake with severe weight loss and inappetance is to get a fecal specimen and double zip lock bag it for the exotic vet to analyze it for parasites. Especially in any wild caught animal. But this applies to captive bred also. 6 month old snake is still juvenile and not a baby but the ravages of severe weight loss is problematic.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Have you tried chopped nightcrawlers?

[astraltressa]

I have it living in a tub, with an under heater and a heat lamp for the warm side. substrate is eco earth loose. It's captive bred and Yeah sure I will raise the temp if you think thats best! Just usually when I had the tempurature at around 80-85 he would always move to the cooler side or stay on top of his hide. I used that as a sign that he didn't like it that hot.

[astraltressa]

Have you tried chopped nightcrawlers?

I haven't tried any worms or live fish out of fear of parasites. If I get them from a bait shop or the pet store will they be parasite free?

[astraltressa]

Another consideration in a snake with severe weight loss and inappetance is to get a fecal specimen and double zip lock bag it for the exotic vet to analyze it for parasites. Especially in any wild caught animal. But this applies to captive bred also. 6 month old snake is still juvenile and not a baby but the ravages of severe weight loss is problematic.

We don't really have an exotic vet around here. Is there any way I could find out myself if it has parasites? Also I only call it a baby because It's practically still the same size. Hasn't grown much in length or weight. Still fits in my palm, even.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I've been keeping garters for over 10 years and have never had an issue with nightcrawler worms. Just make sure to never buy trout/panfish or red wigglers because they are toxic. I also wanted to add that tilapia is not a very good staple and should only be used as a snack. If you get it back eating i would start mixing the diet up a bit maybe throw in some night crawlers, pinky parts, or frozen thawed silversides. I use mice and nightcrawlers for mine and have great success, but i know some people don't want to feed mice.
i haven't tried any worms or live fish out of fear of parasites. If i get them from a bait shop or the pet store will they be parasite free?

[Albert Clark]

We don't really have an exotic vet around here. Is there any way I could find out myself if it has parasites? Also I only call it a baby because It's practically still the same size. Hasn't grown much in length or weight. Still fits in my palm, even.. Well there may not be a exotic vet close by but you need to have one that you can get to reasonably. You can't necessarily tell definitively without a fecal test but there are signs of parasites in reptiles. Inappetance heads the possibilities as does loose stool (diarrhea) discolored stool as well. History of feeding on live goldfish, minnows (roses reds), amphibians are all high risk. Oh, I understand why you referred to her as a baby. The uth that you are using needs to be plugged into a thermostat so you can be sure of the exact temps that the snake is exposed to. It's probably too hot on the warm side on the plastic underneath the substrate.

[astraltressa]

I've been keeping garters for over 10 years and have never had an issue with nightcrawler worms. Just make sure to never buy trout/panfish or red wigglers because they are toxic. I also wanted to add that tilapia is not a very good staple and should only be used as a snack. If you get it back eating i would start mixing the diet up a bit maybe throw in some night crawlers, pinky parts, or frozen thawed silversides. I use mice and nightcrawlers for mine and have great success, but i know some people don't want to feed mice.


That's a good point! Maybe he/she is just tired of the same old "fish" taste, because it completely went off fish even though that's what the breeder gave it. I usually dust the filet with vitamins but I don't know if that's enough. I've recently tried pinky parts for the first time yesterday but had to assist feed that also, although he took it in quicker than the fish. I'll try night crawlers and silverside next, thanks! I really want my snake to survive so I'll try anything! Are garters just more finicky/picky with food than other snakes? To get it to gain weight how often should I feed it the pinkies? I'm hoping that eventually it will just understand that it is food without me assist feeding.

[Albert Clark]

Try giving the little guy a break from assist/ force feedings. They both are very stressful on the animal. You can offer a soaking with pedialite/ water which is a good electrolyte replacement and rehydration formula. These guys are all individuals with their own personalities and yes some are more picky than others but they all stress easily and that needs to be curtailed as much as possible. Fluid replacement is the way to go when trying to restart a non feeding animal. It's easier on the snake and on you. Nightcrawlers are mostly moisture/ water so they really are a great choice for now.

[astraltressa]

Sorry to hear about this situation. There is only so much you can do. If it's a situation like "failure to thrive" there isn't much you can do. Developmentally something isn't right in the little one. I'll post a YT video I did on troubled eaters. I hope it helps. The problem with losing so much muscle it causes organ damage and the future is dim. Please keep us post on this situation.

1O36FMumumg


To get it to gain weight how often should I feed it? I tried to examine my snake a bit today and I can feel a hard moveable lump about in the middle of its belly. Is that something I should bring up to a vet?

[astraltressa]

Try giving the little guy a break from assist/ force feedings. They both are very stressful on the animal. You can offer a soaking with pedialite/ water which is a good electrolyte replacement and rehydration formula. These guys are all individuals with their own personalities and yes some are more picky than others but they all stress easily and that needs to be curtailed as much as possible. Fluid replacement is the way to go when trying to restart a non feeding animal. It's easier on the snake and on you. Nightcrawlers are mostly moisture/ water so they really are a great choice for now.


Today I found a lump in the middle of my snakes belly... It is noticeable when slightly handling it, but you cant really see it. it is moveable and I'm not sure what it is.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

When is the last time you fed the little guy? Can you show a pic of where the lump is? How far does if move when you massage it? When i first got into garters i was using tilapia as a staple because i had read that it was a safe fish and i found out that if you give them big pieces of tilapia or let them eat too much at one time that it's hard to digest and can get hard like a stone. This may or may not be the case in this lump that is moving around but just thought i would share. I thought if they could eat something the size of a minnow that i would cut the tilapia the same size but it's just too much meat for them to digest sometimes so it gets hard like a lump or stone. If you think about it the whole fish are hollow with bones and organs and probably digest faster. You also have to be careful if you buy frozen tilapia fillets because of what it could be treated with.

[Albert Clark]

Today I found a lump in the middle of my snakes belly... It is noticeable when slightly handling it, but you cant really see it. it is moveable and I'm not sure what it is. It's very difficult to make a certain diagnosis on a animal no matter how exact the description. That's why we need exotic vets for these animals. Was this snake captive bred or wild caught bc that is a very critical distinction? And will weigh in on a diagnosis. Any swellings or protrusions are always suspicious.

[astraltressa]

It was captive bred. I got it from undergroundreptiles

[Albert Clark]

Captive bred reptiles are usually in better (healthier) condition than their w/c cousins. Their (captives) enviornment is pretty much temperature controlled, devoid of predators and a diet of safe disease free food. Mostly anyway, there are a few exceptions. We can only make a presumptive diagnosis or interpretation of your snakes pathology based on the information you relay. I would consider the vet if the swelling remains or gets any larger this way you have a baseline from a professional.

[astraltressa]

UPDATE ON SEVERE WEIGHT LOSS IN CHECKERED GARTER

He's gotten a bit better. He just recently started eating without me assisting about a week ago. He has a big appetite right now. He won't eat pinkies or worms. Just silversides, but I don't care I'm just glad that he's eating SOMETHING. I'm so happy he's actually eating. For a while there I thought this was actually it for him, but I never gave up. It had been months. I'm sure he's severely smaller than a normal checkered garter his age, but I will continue to try to get him up to proper health and weight. Right now he's about 9 inches and 3.5 grams. Can someone tell me how underweight that is? I know he is about 10 months old now, as I got him at about 1 month old. Can someone give me a good food regimen for a situation such as this? I've been feeding silversides every other day (That is all he will eat right now) . Letting him eat as much as he wants. Anyone got anything better than that?

[Albert Clark]

Congrats on getting him back to being on food. However, you are feeding too much silversides by giving it every other day. Silversides contain thiaminase, a enzyme that destroys vitamin b1 and can cause a nutritional deficiency in reptiles. Silversides should only be used as a intermittent treat and given in small amounts. I have a garter that has been affected by being fed mostly silversides. The vitamin b1 deficiency can lead to neurological issues as well. Even dusting with a multivitamin may not be good enough if the snake is being fed solely silversides. Thiaminase in small amounts destroys large amounts of vitamin b1. You can always pre scent pinky mice and nightcrawlers with rhe silversides. Just don't feed the silversides themselves. A younger snake will be more susceptible to vitamin b1 deficiency bc their reserves are already less. At 6 months old he really should only require feeding twice a week. Stop the silversides immediately and switch to mice and nightcrawlers scented only with silversides.

[astraltressa]

I thought silversides were fine, from what I googled and searched from this website silversides are a well known fish to feed garters. They are the san fransisco bay brand from petsmart. I do plan to incorporate other things.

[Albert Clark]

Well, actually there are two types of silversides. One that is reported to not contain thiaminase is the pond smelt ( Hypomesus olidus) aka silversides. The one containing thiaminase is listed as rainbow smelt ( Osmerus mordax) aka silversides. And in general a all fish diet is not healthy bc it puts the reptile at risk. Croaker and ocean perch are safer choices. It's great that you are incorporating other foodstuffs. Scenting with the smelt is also safer.

[guidofatherof5]

I received an email from my friend Steve Schmidt with regards "Sally's Silversides" Thought I'd post that email. Thanks for the information Steve.

Steve,

In the thread "Severe weight loss in baby checkered garter..." there appears to be some confusion about the safety of Sally's San Francisco Brand silversides in regards to containing thiaminase.

This feeder fish is listed as Menidia menidia by the company, not any variety of "smelt". It is considered thiaminase-safe according to a previous discussion on your own forum.

Link: http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/5408-smelt-silversides.html

It probably wouldn't be a good idea to discourage the owner from feeding this product ad libitum to their malnourished juvenile garter at this time, at least until they can get it taking other prey (e.g. pinkies and/or worms).

Hope this helps,
Steve

[astraltressa]

Thank you!

[Albert Clark]

Thanks for the other viewpoint Steve as it relates to smelt/ silversides. I spoke about the two forms of smelt with the scientific names of Hypomesus olidus and Osmerus mordax. The Menidia menidia being a species I am unfamiliar with (thanks for that) and the other two being the ones listed in most "safe" "unsafe" fish eating snake publications. My intentions were to impress upon the op to "scent" other prey rather than to feed the fish only. My personal experience with the blue puget male was a determining factor in my post to the op. Thanks again for the clarification. And also S.Schmidt for the link.