Help sexing

[Simland]

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone could help me sex this Thamnophis sirtalis. To me, the tale looks like it's tapering steadily right from the cloaca. However, I thought the same thing for my other garter and I was told he's a male. Which has pretty much been confirmed by the fact that he has stopped growing and is nowhere near the size of a full grown female.

The taper on this one's tale, is very subtle, whether or not it actually starts at the cloaca, which makes it hard for me to be certain either way.

Its body is a bit on the thick side, which makes me think female, but it isn't thick enough for me to say that it's definitely one.

Also, don't be fooled by the thickness of the body where the last two fingers of my right hand are, on the second picture. That's a food lump.

What do you guys think? Youngish female or oldish make?




http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=14015&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=14016&stc=1

[Eddie]

I would say female but I have been wrong before

[Albert Clark]

I say female too! No apparent lateral bulging beyond the cloaca which would be indicative of hemipenes. Why don't you give us the dorsal view from the same vantage point? :)

[guidofatherof5]

My first impression was male as I(old eyes) don't see a steady taper from the cloaca/vent. I've seen many males with no prominent junk pouch.
I also see characteristics that say female. Body size and head structure say female.
I'm going with male. If I'm wrong then I say female.:D

[Simland]

I'm going with male. If I'm wrong then I say female.:D

Lol. You don't want to hedge your bet and say it could also be a hermaphrodite?

Is it unadvisable to pop your own snakes? If it isn't too risky, does anyone know where I could find good instructions? It looks easy, but...

[guidofatherof5]

No popping for that size/age snake. A competent person could probe the snake. Is it imperative you know right now? Do you have a breeding age female you could put this suspected male in with?

[Simland]

It's not necessarily imperative, but, if it's a male I'd probably try to replace it with a female or a younger male and there's not much time left for that. If it's a male, it's probably at least as old as my other one and (part of) the idea was to have a younger one so it won't near the end at the same time.

To add to the case: it seems to behave more like a female than like a typical male. It's a quiet snake compared to the usually more active males. And it doesn't seem lethargic, just quiet. But I guess it could be a "lazy" male.

Is there anything else we can look for? Maybe by feeling around the base of the tail without popping?

I don't have a female, only a male.

Out of curiosity, why no popping for a snake that age?

[indigoman]

I'm going with male, pair him up this spring and see the response.

[Tommytradix]

male

[guidofatherof5]

It's not necessarily imperative, but, if it's a male I'd probably try to replace it with a female or a younger male and there's not much time left for that. If it's a male, it's probably at least as old as my other one and (part of) the idea was to have a younger one so it won't near the end at the same time.

To add to the case: it seems to behave more like a female than like a typical male. It's a quiet snake compared to the usually more active males. And it doesn't seem lethargic, just quiet. But I guess it could be a "lazy" male.

Is there anything else we can look for? Maybe by feeling around the base of the tail without popping?

I don't have a female, only a male.

Out of curiosity, why no popping for a snake that age?

Spine, tail and cloaca damage can occur. Once they are older/larger probing is the chosen method from what I've been told. I don't pop or probe.

[Albert Clark]

As long as you are familiar with the landmarks on the snakes body and use the proper technique popping and probing are safe. You will need to be visually instructed by someone experienced in the procedures. However practice will be your biggest confidence builder. Also the number of sub caudal scales is another determinating factor in sex identification. Snakes grow throughout their lives, they don't ever stop growing. As evidenced by the lifelong shedding that they do. It's called indeterminate growth.

[Tommytradix]

popping adults is not reccomended at all.

[guidofatherof5]

How old is too old to attempt popping or probing? | Reptile Boards (http://www.reptileboards.com/threads/how-old-is-too-old-to-attempt-popping-or-probing.65032/)

[Albert Clark]

popping adults is not reccomended at all.
Popping adults is not recommended for inexperienced keepers. Keepers will need to be instructed by someone who is familiar and learned in the safe procedure. Same thing for probing which is the preferred method that is used by exotic vets in sex determination.

How old is too old to attempt popping or probing? | Reptile Boards (http://www.reptileboards.com/threads/how-old-is-too-old-to-attempt-popping-or-probing.65032/)
Steve, this was informative and someone's opinion on a forum. We all have opinions, just like I am relating mine it's up to the individual which way they want to go with the information that is disseminated.

[guidofatherof5]

Steve, this was informative and someone's opinion on a forum. We all have opinions, just like I am relating mine it's up to the individual which way they want to go with the information that is disseminated.[/QUOTE]

I realize that Albert. I simple posted the link on something I found in the hopes it would help add to the discussing about whether popping was right or wrong for adults. I can certainly post some more links if needed.

[Albert Clark]

I realize that Albert. I simple posted the link on something I found in the hopes it would help add to the discussing about whether popping was right or wrong for adults. I can certainly post some more links if needed.


Well that would be up to Simland and if he is satisfied with the information or feels the need for more links. He was the person who was asking about clarification. I hope we helped with his question.

[Eddie]

Put it in with a male and female and see what happens. LOL

[Albert Clark]

Or count the subcadual scales which can also be a very reliable method. When in doubt you may have to use more than one method that you feel confident with and have practiced enough to be accurate. I still make mistakes as do plenty of keepers and breeders. Nothing to be afraid of if you are confident in your landmarks, approach and technique.

[Simland]

That was informative, thank you.

That video makes it look easy to pop older snakes, but if I were to try, I wouldn't want to put too much pressure, but, then if nothing came out, I wouldn't know if it's because there's nothing there or if I just didn't put enough pressure....

What are the subcaudal scale count ranges for males and females? The tail seems to be about as long as that of my male.

I'm leaning more and more toward "male" because everything said in this thread and because the more I look, the more I see a thick male.

[guidofatherof5]

That was informative, thank you.

That video makes it look easy to pop older snakes, but if I were to try, I wouldn't want to put too much pressure, but, then if nothing came out, I wouldn't know if it's because there's nothing there or if I just didn't put enough pressure....

What are the subcaudal scale count ranges for males and females? The tail seems to be about as long as that of my male.

I'm leaning more and more toward "male" because everything said in this thread and because the more I look, the more I see a thick male.

Let me know if you would like more links that might help in this discussion and your ultimate decision. I've always found that more information is better since it allows for a more open-minded thought process. Sort of like brainstorming ideas.

[Albert Clark]

That was informative, thank you.

That video makes it look easy to pop older snakes, but if I were to try, I wouldn't want to put too much pressure, but, then if nothing came out, I wouldn't know if it's because there's nothing there or if I just didn't put enough pressure....

What are the subcaudal scale count ranges for males and females? The tail seems to be about as long as that of my male.

I'm leaning more and more toward "male" because everything said in this thread and because the more I look, the more I see a thick male.


Popping is easy once you have been taught the proper technique and have practiced it over time. It's not a skill that you will become proficient at if you don't practice it. The sub caudal scales are those scales that are below the cloaca and should be counted distal and towards the tail. Males and females vary in the counts with males having higher numbers. Can you post a photo of the tail from a dorsal viewpoint? Dorsal being the top part of the snake. Usually a view from that point will show two indentations laterally just beyond the cloaca in males.

[Albert Clark]

According to "The Garter Snakes Evolution and Ecology" by Rossman, Ford, Siegel: Subcaudals in T. Sirtalis range from 61 to 97 in males and 52 to 90 in females. Males average 7 to 12.3 more subcaudals than females.... Page 262 under species accounts. T. Sirtalis Common garter snake.

[Simland]

I'm counting 80 scales on that first picture (estimating the number of scales hidden).

Here's a dorsal picture I took yesterday. Even as I was taking it I noticed what I think is the indentations you're talking about.

And, maybe I'm just getting used to it, but I don't see the female-like characteristics much anymore.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=14024&stc=1

[Albert Clark]

Nice looking animal. I was hoping you would hold the snake up so the dorsal view just above the cloaca towards the tail. I am seeing female though. This view will be better if you hold the animal up as in the central pic. If there are truly 80 subcaudals then again I would think female.

[Simland]

I'll try to get those pictures this evening (dorsal and ventral, without my fingers in the way...maybe a lateral shot, too, just for good measure), if I can catch my roommate.

[Simland]

Here are the pictures.

Ventral (again)... this time it's the lack of sharpness in some places that makes it hard to count the scales, but I still get 80 when trying.
Dorsal
And lateral, for good measure.

Edit: added cropped shots since you can't zoom in within the forum.
I'm astounded at how quiet this snake is (behaviorally speaking). Especially if it's a male. Could it be so old that it has become less "vital" (I don't mean lethargic)

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=14030&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=14031&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=14029&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=14032&stc=1

[guidofatherof5]

I zoomed and sharpened this photo. I think you have a male there.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//816/medium/sexing_tail.JPG

[Albert Clark]

Nice pics and I counted 84 subcaudals. Triple checked the count the best I could from pic#2 and the zoomed in pic from Steve. Now I need my probe set. Your pics #3 and #4 show clear indentations laterally with a slight hint of a bulge at the dorsal aspect above the cloacal region. Therefore I will presume this snake is male. Congrats. Great photos. There is always one more difficult to identify than most others.