Thoughts on the color of this wild caught garter in NE.

[jumpmaster23]

Let me know what your thoughts are on this guy. Wild caught in NE yesterday. We have previously caught a couple albinos at the same place.

[guidofatherof5]

Sweet pied. I believe it has mites. Needs quarantined far away from any other snakes. Treatment is imperative. Awesome snake. What county in NE?

[Eddie]

Very cool

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I want it!!! Very nice!

[guidofatherof5]

Snake mites are very serious. This is a special snake and needs protected. There are many treatments out there for might but it is important to do it soon. Mites can weaken a snakes immune system and cause life threatening health issues.
I only bring it up again so it is not missed.

[Albert Clark]

Amazing find! Congrats. Loads of potential there. Hope to see it do well.

[Jeff B]

Snake mites are very serious. This is a special snake and needs protected. There are many treatments out there for might but it is important to do it soon. Mites can weaken a snakes immune system and cause life threatening health issues.
I only bring it up again so it is not missed.
Steve how can you be certain the snake has mites from this photo. I see spots you probably referring to on neck but that could be dirt. Mite treatment is a last resort and should only be used when 100% certain mites are on snake.

[Jeff B]

Very cool snake by the way. Hope lots of offspring will be produced from that snake in the future. That would make a great addition to the hobby.

[guidofatherof5]

Steve how can you be certain the snake has mites from this photo. I see spots you probably referring to on neck but that could be dirt. Mite treatment is a last resort and should only be used when 100% certain mites are on snake.

I can't be certain but to say nothing might put this snake at risk and any other snakes. You are right, it could be dirt but I can't prove it. I simply want the owner to know there might be a problem. It is for the keeper to investigate(or not) my observation. I agree with you that there should be no treatment unless there are mites.
I raised a red flag because the shape, size and locations of these black spots are consistent with mites.
If I'm wrong, no harm.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//821/medium/mites.JPG

[Eddie]

Mites are serious and something to check for sure. The picture is suspect. Also odd is that the pic looks like possible adult mites and the snake was just caught. Lets hope its just dirt or a bad pic.

[Albert Clark]

Many keepers and breeders treat for mites prophylactically when getting a new animal. It's a pretty common practice to use proventamite in the quarantine tub even before seeing the animal in the scales. This particular animal being wild caught is certainly a candidate. I can't say definitively the picture shows mites on the snake but for sure he is high risk. Also high risk for endoparasites as well. I think it's a no brainer to treat prophylactically for mites. A stool sample can be checked to definitively assess for endoparasites.

[Jeff B]

While it is common practice, it is a horrible practice and I do not agree with it, especially for garters. You can quarantine without neurotoxic poison. Baby snakes are very susceptible, garter snakes are especially vulnerable because they are constantly in and out of their water which allows the poison to soak into their skin.
There have been numerous documentations on this forum of disastrous results from prophylactically treating new baby garters. Results are usually twitching and spinning for a day or two, followed by death. Very cruel if you ask me. Like I said, should only be used as last result when mites have been confirmed. IMHO

[guidofatherof5]

While it is common practice, it is a horrible practice and I do not agree with it, especially for garters. You can quarantine without neurotoxic poison. Baby snakes are very susceptible, garter snakes are especially vulnerable because they are constantly in and out of their water which allows the poison to soak into their skin.
There have been numerous documentations on this forum of disastrous results from prophylactically treating new baby garters. Results are usually twitching and spinning for a day or two, followed by death. Very cruel if you ask me. Like I said, should only be used as last result when mites have been confirmed. IMHO

I have witnessed/experienced what you are talking about Jeff. Some baby snakes are very susceptible to the chemicals(Prevent-A-Mite) used. I will never use it again for babies.

[Jeff B]

I have witnessed it too Steve years ago, it's not pretty, and why I will never use the stuff again prophylactically. I would never use or recommend it being used on a baby either. Only last resort.

[Albert Clark]

Well, certainly there needs to be some research done on the use of proventamite in young snakes and a recalculation of standard dosing as such. The animal pictured didn't look to me like it was a hatchling, baby snake, or juvenile. Pro products ( distributors of proventamite) always recommend that any water bowls be removed prior to treating enclosures and waiting for the spray to dry and vapors to dissipate prior to placing the animal back into the enclosure. I am sure that most of the exposures and fatalities occur bc keepers have over treated the enclosures and or have erred in the application procedure. In their haste to treat, have done so incorrectly. And or have placed the animal at risk by putting him or the water bowl back into the enclosure to soon. I have had dialogue with Pro Products reps and they have attested to this and confirmed it.

[Jeff B]

Albert, sorry but your last 4 sentences and assumptions are just incorrect. I never used it without it drying overnight, I also used it very sparingly, I also did not put water in for the first 24 hours of the animal being in tub. I am certain that Steve knows how to read directions too. The problem is garters especially babies crawl around and dig around in substrate to bottom of enclosures and sides and get the stuff on their skin and also unlike a lot of other reptiles they are in and out of their water, this equals nerve damage and death period. You can't leave a snake that was in shipping for a day more than an additional day or two without water or you will dehydrate them. Prevent a mite is water soluble and stable for 30 days!!!

[Jeff B]

Steve sadly we highjacked this thread with POM, which detracts from the incredible animal posted. Is there anyway to move the back half to a new post called Prophylactic use of POM?

[Albert Clark]

If you are taking it personally, that wasn't my intent. If you disagree with my statements I can understand that but to say those statements are incorrect is purely conjecture on your part. My statements are referring to millions of keepers who have used proventamite and used it incorrectly. I am sorry for Steve and your losses while using proventamite. I stand by what I said bc I am entitled to my opinion as are you. So we have to just agree to disagree. Also any animal in quarantine should be on paper towels and not allowed to dig through any type of substrate that would block the ventilation or airing process.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I can't comment on proventamite as I have never used it, but in all of my years I have never caught a wc snake with snake mites so hopefully it's just dirt. Usually snake mites are contracted from other collections or reptile shops or shows. I have found snakes with ticks on them and even a few with small leaches in their mouth, but never any with snake mites. Now internal parasites is a different story. I do agree with Steve that the animal should be quarantined and monitored closely though to make sure it's not mites. I have treated mites in the past and they are a pain in the neck, but with proper treatment can be eliminated. I do daily soaks and get as many visible mites off the snake as possible and cage change every day with paper towels as the substrate. What i'm about to say is how I treat my arrivals that have visible snake mites, but I am not in anyway recommending this to anyone just giving my opinion on how I treat mine. I use a hotshot no pest strip in a well ventilated cage twice a day for 15-20 minutes and have never had any problems with this method. I know people have had bad reactions with no pest strips too, but most of them left the no pest strips in too long or didn't have enough ventilation. Bottom line is toxic chemicals are dangerous to anyone and should be used with caution as a last resort. I have also used mineral oil on eyes and infested cavities to smother them out. I hope a breeder gets this snake and can reproduce it! I feel in my heart that the pied eastern a few years back was indeed a recessive trait. I just wonder if it ever produced babies or if it died and the owner did something shady to recoup the money they lost. I guess we will never know!

[Albert Clark]

Thanks for weighing in Shawn. Yes, there are several methods for dealing with snake mites and for sure they are usually seen coming in from keepers and breeders who have large collections mainly. I feel wc specimens are a high risk for ectoparasites and endoparasites. Certainly the hot shot no pest strip is another way of eradicating snake mites. I agree the animal (piebald) should be in the hands of a experienced breeder and that is paramount.

[Tommytradix]

they are not mites and looks like a white sided from where im sitting.

[guidofatherof5]

I can't comment on proventamite as I have never used it, but in all of my years I have never caught a wc snake with snake mites so hopefully it's just dirt. Usually snake mites are contracted from other collections or reptile shops or shows. I have found snakes with ticks on them and even a few with small leaches in their mouth, but never any with snake mites. Now internal parasites is a different story. I do agree with Steve that the animal should be quarantined and monitored closely though to make sure it's not mites. I have treated mites in the past and they are a pain in the neck, but with proper treatment can be eliminated. I do daily soaks and get as many visible mites off the snake as possible and cage change every day with paper towels as the substrate. What i'm about to say is how I treat my arrivals that have visible snake mites, but I am not in anyway recommending this to anyone just giving my opinion on how I treat mine. I use a hotshot no pest strip in a well ventilated cage twice a day for 15-20 minutes and have never had any problems with this method. I know people have had bad reactions with no pest strips too, but most of them left the no pest strips in too long or didn't have enough ventilation. Bottom line is toxic chemicals are dangerous to anyone and should be used with caution as a last resort. I have also used mineral oil on eyes and infested cavities to smother them out. I hope a breeder gets this snake and can reproduce it! I feel in my heart that the pied eastern a few years back was indeed a recessive trait. I just wonder if it ever produced babies or if it died and the owner did something shady to recoup the money they lost. I guess we will never know!

I've caught garters in NE with mites before.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

That's strange. I guess we just don't have a big problem with mites in wc snakes here in sc. I know i have caught thousands of snakes here and have never found one with mites on it. Most of the time though if i get one from a pet shop or show they have mites.
i've caught garters in ne with mites before.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

White sideds usualy have somewhat of a normal pattern on top. This ones pattern is all distorted. Also whitesideds usually have cleaner white sides with very little pattern. I would lean towards pied, but until more visual offspring are produced it's hard to tell. What color are the eyes?
they are not mites and looks like a white sided from where im sitting.

[Albert Clark]

they are not mites and looks like a white sided from where im sitting.

They should be treated as mites until proven otherwise. A picture can be telling but visual inspection is what vets and medical establishments go by.

[guidofatherof5]

These are the main areas that made me think mites.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//821/medium/might_mite.JPG

[BLUESIRTALIS]

It's something that's for sure. Looks like either mites or dirt and the big patch even kind of looks like a stuck piece of shed.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

WHERE ARE YOU SITTING TOMMY? LOL!:p SORRY, I HAD TO DO IT.
they are not mites and looks like a white sided from where im sitting.