Feeder Fish

[SourceAll]

Wondering if there is a completely safe feeder fish that is completely safe and easy to breed.

They seem to love fish so there has to be a safe type for them to eat.

Would love to be able to breed a safe type of fish in a small aquarium.

[infernalis]

Feeder guppies are a popular choice.

[Albert Clark]

THIS ^ ^^^^^^ Also Platys are a safe breedable fish.

[guidofatherof5]

Throwing the word completely makes it easy. No. Safer, would have been a better word. Guppies, Mollies and Gambusia(mosquito fish) are about as safe as you will find.
Fish I wouldn't feed unless it was life or death for the snake would be rosy reds, minnows or goldfish.

[SourceAll]

Feeder guppies are a popular choice.

Thanks and do you feed these to your snakes as a staple?

[SourceAll]

THIS ^ ^^^^^^ Also Platys are a safe breedable fish.


Thanks for the response… Do you feed these as a staple and or an occasional snack?

[SourceAll]

Throwing the word completely makes it easy. No. Safer, would have been a better word. Guppies, Mollies and Gambusia(mosquito fish) are about as safe as you will find.
Fish I wouldn't feed unless it was life or death for the snake would be rosy reds, minnows or goldfish.



Thanks and this is the type of cautious answer I would give :)

Are you saying they are potentially not safe because they may contain some thiaminase or are you saying they are potentially not safe for other reasons like parasites?

Also, I might as well just say what I would like to do and hopefully you guys could tell me if its possible or more importantly not in the snakes best interest. I have had a few garters when I was kid and caught countless specimens that I later released but I currently don’t have any, just in the research stage.

I would like to build a paludarium / vivarium that is bioactive in the water and out. It would be fully planted and have isopods and springtails as janitors.

I would like to find a fish (I’m leaning towards mollies or platys) that I could stock the water feature with that would serve as the snakes main and staple diet. I would have a separate aquarium where I would breed these fish to keep the paludarium stocked. I would supplement this main staple with other items occasionally but as a day to day food item the fish would be it.

I’ve seen this done before in a crude way and was just fascinated by it but I know now as this was when I was a kid that the people didn’t know what they were doing and the fish they were using were gold fish.

Would the snakes (planning on 2 garters not sure which yet, maybe even a water snake or liophis) thrive in a set up like this?

[guidofatherof5]

The bad fish I mentioned have 3 strikes against them: 1- Low nutritional value 2- Thiaminase 3- Parasites
Fish as a staple diet will be lacking in my opinion. A more varied diet is best, night crawlers, frozen/thawed pinkies and fish all have great nutrition when combined. The problem with stocking the water feature is the snakes will clean it out and not eat the other items more readily. Just my opinion.

[Albert Clark]

Thanks for the response… Do you feed these as a staple and or an occasional snack?
YW. Actually, no. I feed f/t pink rats as a staple to my garters with the switch t o hairless hoppers in the appropriate size. I do intersperse with f/t frog legs and f/t silverides. I will scent cut nightcrawlers and pink mice with fish for picky hatchlings or even picky youngsters. That scenting usually works. On another note, even though you are considering live fish as a staple the safety of thiaminase free doesn't mean you are parasite free. Probably parasite diminished.

[SourceAll]

Sorry I'm confused, I thought that you gave me 3 "somewhat safe" feeder fish in your last post?

Please correct me if I'm wrong as I will defer to your years of experience, I watched some of your videos btw very cool. Everything I've read so far, which is of course from the internet and suspect lol says "low nutritional value" means high in fat.

I also gathered some info that Platy's, Mollies, and Mosquito fish are low in fat and do not have thiamanese? Also, it sounds like Parasites are a given in all feeder fish (unless you raise them, which I plan to do)

Are you saying that the fish you mentioned have all these same problems as goldfish just less?

Regardless, it sounds like my original idea is not the best way to feed garters. I think it would still make an incredible display as garters seem to be the best captive snake IMO. They are fun to watch in their environment, fun to feed and yet have lots of personality and seem to seek interaction with their keepers. Could you ask for more :)

I just need to figure out a good staple that I can raise or make or at the very least, is readily accessible. I will still look into raising my own parasite free platy's since I really like aquariums anyway. I just wont leave extra fish in the water feature and I'll only feed live fish as part their diet.

Do you have any other advice for a new keeper? Maybe some recommendations for the types of garters with the best personalities or most active, that sort of thing?




The bad fish I mentioned have 3 strikes against them: 1- Low nutritional value 2- Thiaminase 3- Parasites
Fish as a staple diet will be lacking in my opinion. A more varied diet is best, night crawlers, frozen/thawed pinkies and fish all have great nutrition when combined. The problem with stocking the water feature is the snakes will clean it out and not eat the other items more readily. Just my opinion.

[SourceAll]

Awesome, thanks for posting that as I'm definitely interested in what experienced keepers are feeding their snakes.

You just reminded me of something I keep forgetting to bring up... You said some fish are parasite diminished not parasite free. So, when I got back into keeping herps about 5 years ago I purchased a Woma python from a top breeder and he told me to only feed frozen rodents as live can have parasites. I haven't heard anyone mention parasites in mice in the garter world. Do you know this to be true or have you heard this?

Also, I have to say, that I hate that pinkies are considered a perfect staple and that you don't need to feed them anything else (according to the 2 care sheets I read on this site) One of the reasons I started looking into garters is to avoid mice :rolleyes:

Any other advice for a new keeper or snake recommendations?







YW. Actually, no. I feed f/t pink rats as a staple to my garters with the switch t o hairless hoppers in the appropriate size. I do intersperse with f/t frog legs and f/t silverides. I will scent cut nightcrawlers and pink mice with fish for picky hatchlings or even picky youngsters. That scenting usually works. On another note, even though you are considering live fish as a staple the safety of thiaminase free doesn't mean you are parasite free. Probably parasite diminished.

[Albert Clark]

Live fish all have parasites. What you do by raising them at home in a controlled setting will keep the parasite load to a minimum. That's what you want as opposed to pet store, big box store aquarium fish. Their fish live in overcrowded aquariums, less than clean water, and poor filtration systems, all of which contribute to HIGH parasite loads which will get the reptile in trouble. Snakes thrive with small numbers of parasites, Protozoa, and bacteria. When those numbers increase and or multiply and become HIGH is when the animals get sick.

[SourceAll]

Thanks Albert, that definitely clears a lot up. The idea of "trying" to keep fish completely parasite free seemed like a huge pain in the ***.



Live fish all have parasites. What you do by raising them at home in a controlled setting will keep the parasite load to a minimum. That's what you want as opposed to pet store, big box store aquarium fish. Their fish live in overcrowded aquariums, less than clean water, and poor filtration systems, all of which contribute to HIGH parasite loads which will get the reptile in trouble. Snakes thrive with small numbers of parasites, Protozoa, and bacteria. When those numbers increase and or multiply and become HIGH is when the animals get sick.

[Tommytradix]

I would avoid live fish altogether as everyone before me has said. I also think pinkies are not a complete diet due to low to no calcium. I feed mainly rodents with the occasional Silversides/nightcrawlers and give a 50/50 calcium plus multivitamin mix 2-3 times a month.
I'm in the process of experimenting with breeding gambusia and treating them for parasites to see if it can be done and will be feeding 3 garters them twice a week along with pinks.

As for a recommendation for a garter. Imo radix have the calmest demeanor and best personality. Concinnus are another sure bet cause they do alot of basking and barely use hides that are provided so you will see them alot more than other garters.

[Albert Clark]

Awesome, thanks for posting that as I'm definitely interested in what experienced keepers are feeding their snakes.

You just reminded me of something I keep forgetting to bring up... You said some fish are parasite diminished not parasite free. So, when I got back into keeping herps about 5 years ago I purchased a Woma python from a top breeder and he told me to only feed frozen rodents as live can have parasites. I haven't heard anyone mention parasites in mice in the garter world. Do you know this to be true or have you heard this?

Also, I have to say, that I hate that pinkies are considered a perfect staple and that you don't need to feed them anything else (according to the 2 care sheets I read on this site) One of the reasons I started looking into garters is to avoid mice :rolleyes:

Any other advice for a new keeper or snake recommendations?
They are considered parasite diminished bc you are raising them to thrive in pristine conditions by having no overcrowding, proper filtration, and proper acid base balances. Parasites certainly can be in rodents. That is why we as keepers feed frozen thawed. There is always that chance that at any given time by continuing to feed live, there is more of a risk for a reptile to have a outbreak of high parasitic loads. This is true but can be reduced by feeding frozen thawed, keeping your husbandry numbers dialed in correctly, and very importantly to pay attention to cleanliness of the terrarium. That is crucial for garters who have high metabolisms and have high outputs of waste products. Keeping water bowls clean and disinfected on a regular basis will all help to keep parasitic loads to a minimum. Pink mice and rats are not completely a perfect staple bc they are mostly (90%) moisture. Lacking calcium mainly but they do have whole organs however small. Pink rats being a larger animal has a greater proportion but still mostly moisture. You can also steer clear of rodents if that is your choice but the garters will need complete nutrition from a varied safe diet which may include reptile vitamin/ mineral supplementation.

[guidofatherof5]

They are considered parasite diminished bc you are raising them to thrive in pristine conditions by having no overcrowding, proper filtration, and proper acid base balances. Parasites certainly can be in rodents. That is why we as keepers feed frozen thawed. There is always that chance that at any given time by continuing to feed live, there is more of a risk for a reptile to have a outbreak of high parasitic loads. This is true but can be reduced by feeding frozen thawed, keeping your husbandry numbers dialed in correctly, and very importantly to pay attention to cleanliness of the terrarium. That is crucial for garters who have high metabolisms and have high outputs of waste products. Keeping water bowls clean and disinfected on a regular basis will all help to keep parasitic loads to a minimum. Pink mice and rats are not completely a perfect staple bc they are mostly (90%) moisture. Lacking calcium mainly but they do have whole organs however small. Pink rats being a larger animal has a greater proportion but still mostly moisture. You can also steer clear of rodents if that is your choice but the garters will need complete nutrition from a varied safe diet which may include reptile vitamin/ mineral supplementation.

Need a citation on that 90% moister content Albert. I think that is a little high. So high I thought you were talking about night crawlers.

[Eddie]

I've had nothing good come from feeding fish. I only feed guppies to babies that will eat nothing else. Rodents are what I use 99% of the time

[Albert Clark]

Need a citation on that 90% moister content Albert. I think that is a little high. So high I thought you were talking about night crawlers.
Well, what percentage do you have the moisture at Steve? I would think it depends on which nutritional analysis reports you are looking at. Laboratories vary and their interpretations and results vary as well.

[guidofatherof5]

They certainly do vary, I've just never seen one at 90%. "The Mouse in Biomedical Research: Normative Biology, Husbandry, and Models" - 72-78%, I was more curious to see one stating 90%.

[Albert Clark]

Reptile industries has their analysis of pinky mice @ 80% moisture. There are labs that list them in the mid to high 80's. I will find the link and post it. The main thing is the op saw mice pinks listed as complete nutrition on a couple of care sheets. They are not. The fact is they are "mostly (90%) moisture" is the important thing.

[Albert Clark]

Bearded dragon. org lists pinky mice moisture percentage at 84%

[guidofatherof5]

Bearded dragon. org lists pinky mice moisture percentage at 84%

Thanks

[Albert Clark]

Ok. Dr foster/smith show pinky moisture percentage at 80%, Rodentpro nutritive analysis doesn't list moisture percentage at all. The high I found tonight is the 84% reported by beaded dragon.org Melissa Kaplan also doesn't list moisture percentage of pink mice. Your resource is definitely the most credible however I will continue to pursue the links I know are out there. Thanks.

[Albert Clark]

Steve , this is what I copied and pasted from bearded dragon co.
Neonatal mice are also ~84% moisture, ~13% protein and ~3-4% crude fat(tested amount is 3.4% so less than the young crickets and almost half adult crickets) Also naturally these mice have a 1:1.1 Ca:Ph ratio so are great to be dusted lightly for the perfect ratio of 1.43:1
Pinkies have vitamin A as well which contains beta-Carotene. The amount is less than the dose limit which is 10,000IU/kg? There are reports of 90% moisture in pink mice in https://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/index.php analysing labs.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks again, lots of material out there.

[Albert Clark]

Thanks again, lots of material out there.
Right, and the main thing once again is, pinky mice are very low in Ca+ ( Calcium) but high in containing mostly moisture.

[SourceAll]

Yeah I liked the idea that garters didn't need mice but now that I know they are good for them I can't not feed them any...
Very cool, I love aquariums so I will definitely try my hand at breeding a few feeders myself I'm just tossing out my staple idea.

I just watched all these videos on youtube made by a guy who breeds tilapia in his garage in 250 gallon plastic tanks. He does this for food for his family and he produces a good amount of fish pretty quickly and those are large fish for human consumption. I imagine that if you were growing them snake size you could definitely have enough fish on hand at any given moment without much effort.

Before I saw that I was going to attempt an experiment to breed platys free of parasites. I figured that if you put the mother in a holding tank when shes about to give birth and just remove her as soon as she does while putting the babies in a clean tank, you would have a good chance of doing so. You could even go one more generation just to be extra safe.

Now you just keep the parents as pets or something then start all breeding with the offspring once they grow. This of course is an educated guess as I'm only accounting for parasites that are in the gastrointestinal track and I'm not a biologist :rolleyes:

Thanks for the suggestions, those are both amazing animals. Definitely leaning towards radix since calm with a great personality sounds pretty ideal but damn Concinnus is gorgeous and bold is also important to me. Its tough so many to chose from lol.



I would avoid live fish altogether as everyone before me has said. I also think pinkies are not a complete diet due to low to no calcium. I feed mainly rodents with the occasional Silversides/nightcrawlers and give a 50/50 calcium plus multivitamin mix 2-3 times a month.
I'm in the process of experimenting with breeding gambusia and treating them for parasites to see if it can be done and will be feeding 3 garters them twice a week along with pinks.

As for a recommendation for a garter. Imo radix have the calmest demeanor and best personality. Concinnus are another sure bet cause they do alot of basking and barely use hides that are provided so you will see them alot more than other garters.

[SourceAll]

Thanks and yeah he seemed to know what he was talking about and almost all snake keepers these days seem to feed frozen.

That seems to be the key from what I've read and heard, variety.

Also, I was reading the recent posts and figured I'd go dig up one of the care sheets I read to see if I remembered it wrong:

“The main advantage of using mice is that they are more nutritious than fish or worms: they do not require supplementation and there is no risk of a thiamin deficiency. Garter snakes feeding on mice don’t need to be fed as often and they grow faster, too. Another significant advantage is that garter snake feces is a lot less watery and smelly!
There are, in fact, only two disadvantages to using mice, and neither of them have anything to do with their nutritive value. Some keepers may not be comfortable feeding mice to their snakes — in fact, they may have chosen garter snakes so that they wouldn’t have to feed mice to them.” <- I enjoyed that last part lol

It was on Garter Snake Care Guide - Gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/care/)

Is this not a good source of information? I have no idea obviously.









They are considered parasite diminished bc you are raising them to thrive in pristine conditions by having no overcrowding, proper filtration, and proper acid base balances. Parasites certainly can be in rodents. That is why we as keepers feed frozen thawed. There is always that chance that at any given time by continuing to feed live, there is more of a risk for a reptile to have a outbreak of high parasitic loads. This is true but can be reduced by feeding frozen thawed, keeping your husbandry numbers dialed in correctly, and very importantly to pay attention to cleanliness of the terrarium. That is crucial for garters who have high metabolisms and have high outputs of waste products. Keeping water bowls clean and disinfected on a regular basis will all help to keep parasitic loads to a minimum. Pink mice and rats are not completely a perfect staple bc they are mostly (90%) moisture. Lacking calcium mainly but they do have whole organs however small. Pink rats being a larger animal has a greater proportion but still mostly moisture. You can also steer clear of rodents if that is your choice but the garters will need complete nutrition from a varied safe diet which may include reptile vitamin/ mineral supplementation.

[SourceAll]

Anybody else with specific garter recommends and why? Would truly appreciate any and all opinions...

[guidofatherof5]

Female T. radix - Plains garter. Great snakes with great personalities. Eat about everything.

[SourceAll]

Thanks Steve, definitely have to check them out. Wish more people had garters at expos, so I could check them out in person.



Female T. radix - Plains garter. Great snakes with great personalities. Eat about everything.

[Albert Clark]

I will be at some upcoming expos in New York and Pennsylvania soon with some well started albino checkereds and red concinnus hatchlings around November '16.