Advice on switching a baby garter snake from live fish?

[kcl]

Less than a week ago, I acquired three baby valley garter snakes. They are only a few weeks old and were fed live fish previously. All three are housed together in a 20 gal tank with a warm side of ~85 (floor temp - there are lots of ways for them to get up closer to be warmer, which they often do) and a cool side of ~75.

Two of the three have quickly taken to eating cut up silversides and nightcrawlers (I have also started offering pinky pieces as well, but neither have taken any yet and I haven't bothered to try to convince them so far). The third shows no interest. He seems scared when food is wiggled at him with tongs and shows no interest at all when the only movement from the food is the worm pieces twitching.

I purchased a live fish for him yesterday and placed him in a separate deli cup with it and several other pieces of food (I don't want my less picky eaters risking the parasites from live fish). He was very interested in this and tried to grab it several times. He missed as it was flopping crazily and grabbed a worm instead. He then ate his worm piece. He afterwards bit the almost dead fish a couple times before deciding not to eat it (it may have been too large after his worm piece). He did not eat anything else after. Today I tried giving him worm pieces, cut up fish, and pinky parts again, but he had no interest.

What would be the best way to get him to eat? Should I just give in to his desire to have live fish present during his meals for now? If he was bigger I'd be far less concerned about refusals and I'm sure that not trying so hard would reduce his stress - at what point does not eating endanger him?

[Albert Clark]

Welcome to the forum k! One of the biggest pitfalls of communal housing is first cleanliness and health then there is the fact that one or more snakes will dominate the other. Snakes really only come together at two times. The first is to brumate or overwinter and the second is to breed. They really need their own space bc they are independent thriving animals. See, once you separated him from the others he attempted and did take food. So it's a consideration that you have to make about housing them. The other big consideration will be to separate them based on sex. Males and females kept together will invariably breed at some point and you need to be cognizant of that. Especially if you are housing different species of opposite sex individuals. But the important thing is the ability to keep the enclosure sanitary for the good health of all of them. If he's taking fish, give him the safe fish, f/t silversides, fresh cut up croaker, fresh cut tilapia and salmon pieces are good choices. Try scenting pinky mice with the fish as well.

[kcl]

All three are males from the same litter (per the breeder), as I specifically requested only males. The reluctant eater unfortunately now also has not been interested in taking live fish either. I assume moving him into a separate place has been stressing him out. Because of that I've gotten him his own housing today so I can leave food in with him safely as he clearly is also stressed out by being observed. Hopefully he starts eating while alone and unobserved.

Not sure where to find croaker, but I've been offering nightcrawler pieces, scented pinky pieces, f/t silverside pieces, and once salmon pieces. One of the ones who is happily eating likes fish, the other likes worms. I am planning to try to get them eating pinky pieces, but it's not a priority. I have now found a place to get feeder guppies for the reluctant eater, so he has been offered those as well.

If you have any additional advice, I'd appreciate it. Right now I assume the best thing for him is just to be alone and be left alone except for placing in food, cleaning, and giving water, all of which I will disturb him as little as possible.

[Albert Clark]

Well, you seem to be on the right track. Congrats. What you could consider for the reluctant feeder is to give him a paper towel roll cardboard hide. They work really well but need to be tossed frequently bc they get soiled. I have a eastern blackneck male who absolutely will not take food unless it's waved in front of the open end of the paper towel roll. Oh, that's the other thing, ball up two paper towels and stuff it in one end of the roll so there is only one way in and out. Works really well for timid feeders.

[Tommytradix]

Garter Snake Forum - Garter Caresheet (http://www.thamnophis.com/index.php?page=caresheet)


small dark hides are best for babies. an old container that's not clear works great. cut it down to about 2 inches high and cut a small opening in it double the girth of the snake so it don't let in too much light and they can feel secure. also try putting a lot of fake hanging plants all over the cage. i usually so the whole back wall and one of the side walls usually on the warm side opposite the water bowl. posted below is one of my 29 gallon tall tanks for reference.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13692&stc=1

[Tommytradix]

here is my Nile Monitor's setup. once he outgrows it (which is very soon) i'm going to put garters in it. i can already imagine my garters basking on the branches lol the water bowl will be downsized to a more appropriate size and may add a few more plants.


http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13697&stc=1

[kcl]

Thanks! I did have paper rolls in the bigger tank for them (along with a bunch of other hides), but didn't think to block off the end with paper towels. I currently have two of the mini RB hides in his separate tank but am still looking to provide more, tinier hides for him so he can feel as safe as possible. 3 out of 4 sides are blocked off completely from view (put cardboard and Styrofoam up against the outsides). I think he still hasn't eaten yet unfortunately. One guppy is missing, but it probably just flopped off somewhere again - I didn't want to disturb him to check.

I am going to buy one of the "fancy" danios again after work as that is what inspired him to eat the first time while the guppies don't seem to be doing anything for him. I'll pick up some more fake plants while I'm there. I have some ordered but they won't arrive until Wednesday and I don't want to steal them from the other babies. They're still doing well. I'm really hoping I can fix the problem for this one.

[kcl]

Sadly, I came home today to find that he had passed away. I only had him for nine days in total. I wish I had done a better job for him. Hopefully the remaining two continue to do well.

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear about the little ones passing.

[kcl]

Thank you for the condolences. I am feeling very guilty about failing him right now. He ran away from every food I ever offered him except the live danio, including the live guppies. I am not sure if he was still drinking after being separated out or not as they tend not to drink in front of people. Someone with experience in this species probably could've gotten the poor little guy to thrive.

[guidofatherof5]

Garters sometimes die from "failure to thrive" I think some are developmentally behind and didn't get the "eat" switch turned on. Don't be too hard on yourself, most of us have been where your at.

[Albert Clark]

Sadly, I came home today to find that he had passed away. I only had him for nine days in total. I wish I had done a better job for him. Hopefully the remaining two continue to do well.
Sorry for the loss! I find it perplexing that he would die within a nine day period. Maybe there was something else going on with him. You did all you could and shouldn't blame yourself at all. Some animals just are not going to survive despite our best efforts. There is a type of feeding called " tease feeding" where you pick the animal up and hold him in your hand while lightly offering food very close to his face. A very effective method for reluctant feeders especially hatchling or neonates. I have to do this with one of my albino checkereds right now. He is way behind in feeding, size, and overall development.

[kcl]

Thank you both for the advice and support. I did try to tease feed but he seemed to think he was being murdered any time I touched him (reasonable when you're so tiny) :(.

I've tried it with the other two as well as they are currently being stubborn, but the only one who doesn't think he's being murdered every time (still does most times) is the one who has been a good eater until just recently. That one just shed today so I assume he will start eating again. If you do have advice on how to keep them from being terrified in order to tease feed, I'd love to know for reference even if I hopefully won't have to do it at this point.

Fyi, I only touch them when necessary to move them, I mostly just clean around them and definitely don't handle them for fun - they're so tiny! I am perfectly happy just handling my ball python when he is not digesting or in shed as he is healthy, well established, and doesn't seem to mind.

[Zdravko092368]

It probably wasn't your fault, in most litters of garters there is usually 1-3 snakes that fail to thrive, something about their brain doesn't develop properly and they just don't eat or something internally didn't develop properly.

I just started getting into breeding garters and I don't think I would sell garters until a month or two old at least to avoid selling those failure to thrive ones before the issues became apparent.

[Albert Clark]

Thank you both for the advice and support. I did try to tease feed but he seemed to think he was being murdered any time I touched him (reasonable when you're so tiny) :(.

I've tried it with the other two as well as they are currently being stubborn, but the only one who doesn't think he's being murdered every time (still does most times) is the one who has been a good eater until just recently. That one just shed today so I assume he will start eating again. If you do have advice on how to keep them from being terrified in order to tease feed, I'd love to know for reference even if I hopefully won't have to do it at this point.

Fyi, I only touch them when necessary to move them, I mostly just clean around them and definitely don't handle them for fun - they're so tiny! I am perfectly happy just handling my ball python when he is not digesting or in shed as he is healthy, well established, and doesn't seem to mind.
That's cool! I only pick mine up when it's time to clean however it's just moving them from the soiled tub to the already prepared replacement tub. Also sometimes they get picked up if they lurch forward out of reach and I have to move quicker than them to avoid a accident. As far as the tease feeding is concerned you may have to be a bit forceful despite the hatchling feeling like he's "being murdered". Use the food to essentially do more of a assist feeding and put the prey item into the snakes mouth. Usually they will begin the pulling in of the prey and swallow it. Once again so sorry for your loss.

[kcl]

Ah, yeah, I did try putting the food in the one's mouth. He did not start swallowing, but I likely should've gotten it a bit further in to his mouth. I think it's one of those things where practice and technique makes a big difference (I've volunteered at a wildlife center for several years and everything from feeding baby birds to tubing baby opossums, to moving adult hawks is way easier the fifth+ time than the first no matter what). Hopefully I never need to try again with the remaining two. Although I appreciate learning new techniques and theories, I'm far happier when the animals don't need them!

[Tommytradix]

did you buy them or catch them? if bought who did you get them from?

[kcl]

I purchased them from Don. Just to be very clear - I have no criticisms of Don. I think he seems to do a very good job of taking care of these animals and conducting his business in general. I did reach out to him for advice on the one at the time as well and he was very responsive and gave much of the same advice. The remaining two seem healthy and are generally eating and growing well. I would have no issues with recommending Don.

[Tommytradix]

I purchased them from Don. Just to be very clear - I have no criticisms of Don. I think he seems to do a very good job of taking care of these animals and conducting his business in general. I did reach out to him for advice on the one at the time as well and he was very responsive and gave much of the same advice. The remaining two seem healthy and are generally eating and growing well. I would have no issues with recommending Don.

why so defensive?
i know don very well. his passing wasnt your fault. imo don shouldnt have sold them while they were eating live and switched them for you before sending them. i start all my babies on worms and within 3 weeks they are eating pinks then i wait for them to shed then sell them. he came to you not eating a proper diet and barely eating and even i would have a hard time switching them to another food item and ive had 25+ litters. i also would constantly worry about if they have parasites or not. did you request them before they were switched to a better food source? it dont seem like something he would do

[kcl]

Not defensive - just don't want someone's name linked to negative things unnecessarily. More for anyone else who happens to read then you specifically, sorry! They were listed as ready & for sale on his facebook page. I did not make any specific requests and had no particular desire to get them when they were very young. I'd be perfectly ok with any age really and only care about them being healthy. Two of the three started eating fish pieces or worms when I offered them.

The one that passed did not seem to acknowledge any of the following as food: feeder guppies, rosy red minnows (bad for them, I know but better than starvation! None of the others have been or will be offered this food), nightcrawler pieces, salmon pieces, silverside pieces, pinky pieces. He did acknowledge the live danio as food. The pet stores won't sell the danios if they know I plan to feed them so I was reluctant to get him more of them but had on the day he passed.