Hi there!

[Spiritwolf]

I have two eastern garter snakes, one is much smaller than the other, both caught in the same area two weeks apart, and they are friends...they sleep together in their box and tend to stay together most of the time. Today the biggest one who I had been pretty sure is female, proved my guess of her sex to be right by multiplying. Neither she or her little buddy have shown any indication of even thinking about trying to eat the babies. And it was sure cute to see mom and one of her newborns curled up together behind the sleeping box...and her companion curled up inside the box with a few more of the newborns...the rest of the newborns all curled up together in one of the areas where the heating pad is under the cage.
This was the first time I'd seen newborn snakes, and I was fascinated to see that they are born curled up much as a newborn mammal is curled up within the placenta.
I am sort of reluctant to remove the newborns because they all look so contented together (and mom has been living amicably with a cage mate half her size for almost three months now.) I will separate the babies out at feeding times (because they are too close to the size of earthworms for me to not worry about them being accidentally mistaken for worms at feeding time!) Otherwise, how much risk is there, of the adults eating the babies, when so far, they've shown no inclination to do so? The only creatures showing interest in trying to eat the newborns have been my cats, who earned themselves plenty of squirt gun discipline today by trying to jump up on the top of the snake cage!

[adamanteus]

Hi, and welcome to the forum. Congratulations on your newborn snakes.:) Although nothing has gone wrong so far, I personally would recommend that you separate the neonates from the adult snakes straight away, as the risk of cannibalism is high.

[Lulu Bennett]

The only creatures showing interest in trying to eat the newborns have been my cats, who earned themselves plenty of squirt gun discipline today by trying to jump up on the top of the snake cage!
pmsl thats not a bad idea using and water pistol lol. hi and welcome to the forum spiritwolf.
to be honest i would remove the babies from the tank just for my piece of mind incase the male decides to eat them. i hope you plan on posting pics of mom dad and babies :D

[Stefan-A]

Welcome aboard, Spiritwolf. :)

[Snaky]

Welcome to the forum, enjoy it here :)

I want to give you the same advice as James. It's already recorded multiple times that the male can eat the young. Also when you'll be feeding, both the other can eat them just by mistake.

The very big size difference in your snakes could mean that you have a couple ( or a young snake is he sheds often).

[drache]

welcome to the forum, spiritwolf

[Sid]

:) Welcome to the forum and congratulations on the new ones. I would like to echo the recommendations of the other members on moving the babies.

Sid

[chloe]

Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your babies. I have lost a few babies this year when the male in the viv ate them.

[Thamnophis]

Hi Spiritwolf, welcome here on this forum...

[Odie]

Hi, from Oregon, Spiritwolf :)

[enigma200316]

Hello and welcome.....

[Spiritwolf]

The smaller adult was one I rescued a week after I rescued the big female, I am not 100 percent sure it's a male although I suspect it is. I haven't had much practice in sexing garters yet. I compared my first snake to pictures on the web, of males and females and guessed (correctly as it turned out) that the first one was a female and of course, she proved me right by giving birth!

So far, I've seen nothing but companionship behaviors between the adult snakes and the babies. The only problem I've had with the babies has been when I had one that stopped eating and dehydrated and died (despite having warmth, water, etc.) The rest of the babies are fat and healthy. In fact, they are so used to the routine of being moved to individual containers to eat, that a couple of them strike the worm as soon as I put them down in their containers.

I have ordered the book "What's wrong with my snake", but I would also like to find more references on snake health topics.

Any idea what might have been wrong with the baby I lost? Has anyone seen a similar situation? (The baby had been eating fine before this last week, and showed the problem only two days before it died.)

I'm soon going to welcome four new garters to my serpentine family (they will of course, have their own home separate from the other snakes), just waiting on Paypal to complete a fund transfer so I can pay for the new snakes. I'm getting 2 pair of red sideds from Scott Felzer. I had read a lot about his snakes, admired his photos of his morphs on his site, had seen good comments on other sites and forums, and one thing I've learned from when I used to breed show cats, show and working dogs, and other animals, is the value of getting breeding stock to start with, from a knowledgeable breeder (who also is willing to answer questions, even those that probably seem dumb to the experienced person!)

Does anyone have any recommendations for any really good books on keeping, breeding, etc of garter snakes? Being an incurable bookworm, I want to read and learn as much as I can!

Thanks all, for welcoming me to the forum.

[GarterGuy]

Howdy and welcome to the forum. Your baby that died, was just probably weak to start out. Not all the babies that make it through birth, actually make it the rest of the way....just one of those thing unfortunatley. As far as good books, there aren't a whole lot out there for garters unfortunately. Two I can recomend are....Garter and Ribbon Snakes by R.D. and Patricia Bartlett (pulbished by Barrons) and Garter Snakes & Water Snakes by David Perlowin (published by AVS). They're just little paper back books, not very expensive but pretty good. Oh and not to already say what's been said, but I would really seperate your babies from your adults if you already haven't yet. It's just a matter of "better safe then sorry". Also, it helps for monitoring the health of the young so that if any issues come up they can be addressed right away. Oh, and yes, Felzer is a great source for snakes. You'll have to post some pics of your little easterns and your new redsideds when they arrive. We love to see pics here....especially baby pics.:D

Roy

[ssssnakeluvr]

Welcome to the forum!! It's not unusual to loose 1 or 2 babies, that's just nature and the reason why they have such large litters. the "companion behaviors" are happening because they are stuck together in a cage. It's not unusual to find 1 or 2 or even 3 under a rock, board, or log, however they generally have no maternal instincts. Baby snakes are on their own and capable of taking care of themselves right after birth.

[zooplan]

welcome here
you´ll see here you can find as many answeres as questions:)

[drache]

If you're a book lover, you should also get
"The Garter Snakes - Evolution and Ecology" by Rossman et al
and if you're a big spender
"Snakes of the United States and Canada - Natural History and Care in Captivity" by Rossi & Rossi
the latter book has a full 50 Pages on garters and loads of other fantastic information

oh and welcome to this forum

[Spiritwolf]

I've already read a description of the Rossman book and hope to someday find it at a bargain price. I've found good books on other subjects at sometimes unbelievable bargain prices on ebay, deepdiscount, overstock.com, and amazon used books, including What's Wrong with My Snake for under $10 including shipping and Corn Snakes comprehensive owner guide for a little over $11 total including shipping.
So far, I haven't seen any recent books at all on Garter snakes.

I didn't think snakes were social animals either until I saw the smaller adult garter refuse to eat unless he (I just assume it's male, that one is a much more energetic gung-ho personality whereas the big female is a calm laid-back one) unless he was with the female. He did that for a very long time and now it still is hard to get him to eat very well when he's alone, put him back in with the big female and he chows down. I watch them eat and its funny coz they consistently take turns when eating.

From what I've observed, the snakes are very careful in inspecting something to see if it's food or not. When I put two babies together for feeding (while supervised to intervene if necessary), I found they very carefully would inspect what they encountered and after inspecting the other snake, would turn away and after inspecting the earthworm, would often inspect it again a second time before eating it. By inspect I mean they will thoroughly go from one end to the other checking the object several times with their tongue.

I have experimented with feeding the big female, to see if she shows different behavior when I say "Wanna Eat?" right before I feed her, versus her behavior when I just put her dish down. When I just put the dish down, she usually takes quite a while to get around to checking out the food and eating. When I say "Wanna Eat?" as I lift the lid of their home, and BEFORE the dish is within her sight, she will get excited and raise her head up looking for the food.
Recently, I've noticed that when I go up to the cage and say "You ok?", she will stick her head out of their box as if she's showing me she's fine (the smaller adult often will follow her lead). I've seen these behaviors consistently over time. It may be some kind of conditioned response, but whatever it is, to me it shows a snake is sharper mentally than I would have guessed a snake to be. Snakes are a creature that most people don't think of as having any kind of intelligence or personality.

If I just go up to the cage without saying anything, or to scold a cat for trying to sneak up onto the cage, I've not observed any consistent response behavior of any kind from the snakes. They usually just go right on sleeping!

I lost another baby, they all had eaten, all had bulging bellies, but one was more sluggish than the others. The next day I found that one dead, with a bloated looking midsection and wrinkled dehydrated skin appearance, and that one had regurgitated his meal. The only symptoms I've been able to find even similar to what I have observed, are some of the symptoms of intestinal worms. With cats and dogs, most breeders deworm monthly, because roundworms are encysted in body tissues and no wormer can kill the cysts. When the worms in the gut are killed by the wormer, then some of the encysted worms migrate to the gut, hence the reason that deworming must be repeated monthly. There is no way to entirely ever prevent worms, because roundworms pass from the mother to the babies and are encysted in tissues of the babies before birth.
I didn't know if this was also true of live bearing snakes or not. I was reading various suggestions regarding deworming of snakes. Do breeders deworm snakes regularly as part of normal routine, in the same way cat and dog breeders deworm their animals? What dewormers are most commonly used? I have read of ivermectin being used in snakes, but the dosage is

For those of you interested in medical data, normal physiological values, etc of garter smales as well as other animals, here's a link to a good pdf file.
http://www.bsava.com/VirtualContent/85340/Advvn_ch8.pdf

Reptile formulary link, gives info on various drugs, their purposes, and dosages in reptiles
ACVC 2001 - Reptile Formulary (http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00341.htm)

Another link with some good snake pharmaceutical information, as well as some gorgeous photos of boa morphs, check out the Brasher's BloodRed (red being my fav color, I thought the Brasher's BloodRed was a striking morph).
Constrictor Pharmacy (http://www.brasherreptiles.com/Pharmaceuticals.htm)

Merck Veterinary Manual's pages on snakes
Merck Veterinary Manual (http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/toc_171400.htm)


Free snake breeder's tracking card for download, a nice chart for keeping track of health and other particulars on individual snakes.
Pro Exotics Reptiles, the Nation's finest captive bred Snakes and Monitors, your source for Infrared Thermometer, Temp Gun. (http://www.proexotics.com/tracking_cards.html)

Everyone may already know about these links, but if not, maybe somebody will find the links useful.

I am thinking of separating the baby garters from the adults although I hate to, because they all seem to enjoy each other's company so much.

One day I didn't see the smaller adult or four babies and when I lifted up their hide box, underneath it the small adult and the four babies were all curled up together. I've noticed the garters like to curl up together in what looks like one big tangled mass of snakes, all the bodies all entwined and a bunch of heads looking at me :P

I've been using a human heating pad set on low (one that doesn't have the damn auto shutoff, and those without the auto shutoff are getting harder to find), under one end of their home and so far, it seems to do fine for giving them a heat source. What is the difference between the reptile undertank mats and human heating pads (other than expense for reptile mats!)?

On recommendation from Scott, I switched the substrate to Carefresh small animal bedding which is soft and which at the local petstore was cheaper than reptile substrate products.

Another question I have is about the plastic shoeboxes or sweater boxes, or ziploc containers that I see recommended so often as good cheap, easy to clean snake containers. How many ventilation holes must be put into them to assure adequate air exchange, and how large do the holes have to be to, to be adequate for air (and still small enough to foil escape artists)?

I got my pair of corn snake babies today and put them into the plastic shoeboxes and noticed very quickly that those boxes are not only cheap and easy to use, but they are also "low profile", meaning that they blend in with other such boxes I have for holding craft materials...and thus are easier to camouflage or hide when my parents come to my house to visit, because my mom is scared to death of snakes. Years ago I had snakes in an apartment and my mom came over and started criticizing trivial things about my place and I casually mentioned "If you see anything that looks like a snake, let me know coz I had a watersnake get loose last night in here." My mom quickly made an excuse and left within 5 minutes after I said that. She since has learned as much as a mom is capable of learning, that there's a limit to how much a mom can tell an adult child what to do, which is why I like being able to make the snakes less noticeable when my mom is unable to resist the temptation to peek into my bedroom behind my back (usually to see how much clutter I have in my room, I tend to clutter my bedroom so the rest of the house stays relatively neat :P )

Thanks all for the warm welcome. The new garter babies should be coming next week, and I'm getting excited. If they are willing to cooperate I will try to get pictures, if they aren't willing then pics will have to wait a week or so until they settle in.