View Full Version : Hello Again. Possible RI?
Kadabasaur
04-19-2016, 08:33 PM
Basically my checkered garter snake Pandora, she's around 4 years old, and she's been great since I got her. About a week ago she hissed at me when I went to check on her. [I just run my finger along her body and she normally just pops out and says hello, this is the first time she's hissed at me] So I looked over her and noticed she was pretty dull, she must be shedding and pretty grumpy. I noticed she was more lethargic than usual, and whenever I run my finger down her body after this she wasn't really moving at all. Its like her body raised up to my finger, and her head done this boppy up and down thing. She has never done this before either. I contacted my breeder and he said it was just her communicating with me. I also noticed huffy noises, kinda like she was sighing at me? The sighing noises are now continuous and extremely loud.
She ended up shedding perfectly, and I fed her. I normally leave the fishies/pinky parts on a plate and she goes up and gets them cause she's extremely fiesty when eating. She didn't go for it at all. So I got the tweezers and put it to her mouth and she ate it fine, except I had to do this with every bit. She ended up not eating it all either.
She's in a 4ft glass vivarium, with plenty of hiding spaces and aspen bedding. Heated by a heatmat, controlled by a thermostat. Her hot side sits at 26 c and her cold side is 20c.
She's fed on smelt and small pieces of pinkies. [shes terrified of mice for some reason lol] I give her a punch of Nutrobal dusted over her food every 4 weeks also. Since this incident I have taken her to the vets last friday. She heard the noises and said they're definitely coming from the lungs. She also put her on an antibiotic, which she's had twice. She gets a injection every 72 hours. I don't know if this is early in the treatment but I've seen no improvements at all. Its almost like she's getting more lethargic. I tried to feed her the other day, she did eat but it was like she couldnt push the fish down her throat, and resulting in alot of worrying squeaks. She did manage to get it down but I couldn't bring myself to give her another. Im worried that its not an RI and something else. Her mouth is clean, and I haven't noticed any mucus or bubbles around her mouth at all. She's not lost any weight either. The only thing is the breathing noises.
I've also raised her temps to 32 c on the hot side, and shes about 24 on the coolside. I've also bought a 2.0 UV light.
Does anyone have any ideas? Should I be seeing any improvement at this point?
I added photos of her enclosure, and one of her.
Albert Clark
04-20-2016, 02:36 AM
Hey Kad, welcome back to the forum. Sorry about the dilemma. That is a beautiful snake and enclosure you have there. Sounds and looks like you are doing all the right things. Your husbandry seems correct too. You know snakes don't get sick all of a sudden they usually have been harboring a illness for some time b4 we notice it. Consequently, they don't get better right away either. Especially with a RI that can be multiple bacteria at play. A vet who is a certified exotic vet (specialist) with reptiles may begin treating a animal with a certain antibiotic/s and may suggest to you to get a culture and sensitivity test of the animals trachea (windpipe) to be sure the animal is on the right antibiotic/s. However, vets will sometimes shoot from the hip in most cases when prescribing and give a broad spectrum antibiotic to see if that works first. In most cases the animal won't show improvement right away bc that is the nature of the beast with reptiles. They don't heal or get well quickly. I think you should give it some time first but i would certainly contact the vet with my observations and feelings. Maybe this is a viral pathogen and not bacterial. The only way to really know will be to hold off and let the medication run its course. Then if the symptoms persist and you still see no improvement then a culture and sensitivity test to identify the offending organisms needs to be done and the specific antibiotic prescribed. Hope this helps and she is on the road to recovery.
guidofatherof5
04-20-2016, 10:09 AM
Is her breathing labored? Is she taking deep breaths all the time? Is her mouth agape at all? Any mucus from the mouth or nose? Is she soaking a lot? What about her eyes, are they bright/glossy and reactive to movement? What about tongue flicking, is it normal?
Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get a baseline to work with so I can make some suggestions. If you have a Vet. I'd suggest a check up to see if they spot anything.
Albert Clark
04-20-2016, 11:36 AM
The one thing i didn't see in your husbandry numbers was the humidity percentage. Checkered garters are a southwestern species but they do require a small to moderate amount of humidity about 45- 55%. So, consider a hygrometer to monitor your humidity. Too low and or too high of a humidity gradient is not good . Have to find a happy medium. LOL. Happy medium based on the species of the animal. In this case of course it's T.marcianus.
guidofatherof5
04-20-2016, 12:24 PM
Respiratory Tract Infection in Reptiles (http://www.anapsid.org/rti.html)
Kadabasaur
04-20-2016, 04:09 PM
No mucus or gaping. She done a weird thing where she put her head next to her body and started opening her mouth slightly but that was at the vets so it could just be stress. She's not really been soaking at all. I'm worried she's not been drinking. She's still tongue flicking. Her eyes have a shine and seem to be responsive.
Another thing I've noticed is shes moving her head up and down insanely quickly.
I'll look into getting a humidity reader thingy in the meantime to check that. I've not really thought about humidity.
Here's a video I took just 5 minutes ago - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XLB80BeEMo&feature=youtu.be
The vet is fantastic but she's not a specialist so I'm trying to see what other things is could possibly be other than an RI.
Should I still try to feed her?
Any other ideas or something else I could look into her doing would be great.
I've added higher quality photos too.
guidofatherof5
04-20-2016, 06:10 PM
I would say Pandora is moving and acting very normal in that video.
Kadabasaur
04-20-2016, 07:01 PM
Really? She has been really active today which is a good sign, although her weird breathe noises are still there.
Its weird because she's sometimes super active, then other times she's very, very lethargic.
Kadabasaur
04-20-2016, 07:06 PM
ok never mind I just heard noises coming from her cage and she had her head turned fully back showing her bottom and started moving around backwards. I'm insanely worried now.
edit - I think she's damaged her jaw, she can't seem to close it now.
what do I do here?
guidofatherof5
04-20-2016, 07:29 PM
Damaged her jaw, how?
Kadabasaur
04-20-2016, 07:57 PM
Its fine she's readjusted it.
I'm more worried about what happened there - her head was vibrating and she pulled her entire body back and started moving backwards around. Could that be stress? or?
guidofatherof5
04-20-2016, 09:06 PM
Without seeing it, it's hard to tell. I do think you are over sensitive right now. It's good to be tuned in but not over-tuned.
Eating, pooping, moving, drinking, tongue flicking, eyes bright, pupils reactive, quick movements. Pandora just finished a perfect shed. Sounds like a lot is going right. I'd monitor things for awhile and see what happens.
Albert Clark
04-21-2016, 12:49 AM
Its fine she's readjusted it.
I'm more worried about what happened there - her head was vibrating and she pulled her entire body back and started moving backwards around. Could that be stress? or?
Hi Kad, is she still taking antibiotics? Medications have side effects and she may be experiencing some normal and expected side effects. The video showed mostly normal behavior. If she is not soaking and not drinking water I would take her and place her in a appropriate sized plastic bowl with tepid water and a lid. Ensuring there are adequate ventilation holes in the lid. This will cause her to absorb water through her cloaca. Which is important while being on antibiotic therapy. She really is a good looking specimen. She will also get moisture through breathing in moist air while in the bowl. Their fluid intake needs to be increased when on antibiotics.
Kadabasaur
04-21-2016, 10:28 AM
Well she's now finished her round of antibiotics. She done the same thing at the vets today - she doesn't know what that is either.
She's not lost any weight either. Ill do the plastic tub thing tonight when I'm home for work.
I probably am being over sensitive after losing Athena. I can't imagine losing Pandora. She's been with me for 3-4 years now.
Think I'll also have some chill out time to stop me stressing out!
guidofatherof5
04-21-2016, 10:31 AM
Well she's now finished her round of antibiotics. She done the same thing at the vets today - she doesn't know what that is either.
She's not lost any weight either. Ill do the plastic tub thing tonight when I'm home for work.
I probably am being over sensitive after losing Athena. I can't imagine losing Pandora. She's been with me for 3-4 years now.
Think I'll also have some chill out time to stop me stressing out!
Which antibiotic, Baytril?
Albert Clark
04-21-2016, 10:38 AM
Also, does she still have the noisy respirations?
Kadabasaur
04-21-2016, 11:23 AM
Receipt says Fortum inj 1g.
Other name for it is Ceftazidime
Albert Clark
04-21-2016, 11:41 AM
Receipt says Fortum inj 1g.
Other name for it is Ceftazidime
That is Fortaz and is another broad spectrum antibiotic used in reptile medicine. It usually is combined with another bacteria specific antibiotic once a tracheal swab has been taken or a choanal wash is done and the culture and sensitivity results are confirmed. Ceftazidime is the generic name for Fortaz.
Kadabasaur
04-21-2016, 12:24 PM
Interesting!
I forgot to add, yeah the breathing noises are still there. Not as frequent though.
Albert Clark
04-21-2016, 12:32 PM
Interesting!
I forgot to add, yeah the breathing noises are still there. Not as frequent though.
Remember, reptiles heal and recover slowly. I would keep the ambient temperatures bumped up a bit. Also you should do the 20 -30 minute tepid water soaks so to ensure she stays hydrated and the medication can be adequately excreted from her body. Consider doing them twice a day. Keep the enclosure really clean and her on paper towel.
Kadabasaur
04-21-2016, 01:40 PM
Her hot side is at 32c. Is that hot enough? Her humidity thint should arrive on Monday.
I will do! Thank you, both of you. You've really calmed me down. I can't believe I was seeing normal behaviour as abnormal. You've been a great help.
guidofatherof5
04-21-2016, 02:52 PM
It's good to be alert, seeing/noticing changes is an important part of keeping healthy garters.
Albert Clark
04-21-2016, 09:25 PM
Her hot side is at 32c. Is that hot enough? Her humidity thint should arrive on Monday.
I will do! Thank you, both of you. You've really calmed me down. I can't believe I was seeing normal behaviour as abnormal. You've been a great help.
Yes 32c is fine. Glad to help out. Did the vet suggest any other test to be done?
Kadabasaur
04-21-2016, 09:39 PM
She said to wait and see if she gets better within 2-3 weeks, if not then she said she'd do an xray.
Albert Clark
04-22-2016, 05:14 AM
She said to wait and see if she gets better within 2-3 weeks, if not then she said she'd do an xray.
Sounds good! I would ask, maybe with a phone call, if the vet thinks a culture and sensitivity test might be warranted. Hopefully she will get better and not need it.
Kadabasaur
04-27-2016, 09:48 PM
Hey guys, just wanted to a quick update on Pandora.
Feeding isnt going so well. Ive tried with the tiniest bits of fish/pinkie parts. She's extremely hungry but as soon as she puts it in her mouth she spits it back up. She also does this weird thing where she puts her mouth against the bottom of the viv and dances about? Will try again in 3 days.
Breathing noises were completely gone, and now they've just came back tonight. Not with every breathe but they seem to sound louder.
I took leaves out of her enclosure so shes just got her 2 hides and her water bowl.
Should I leave it another week before getting the vet involved again?
I also phoned the vet - she said it wouldn't be necessary due to the antibiotics she's on?
joeysgreen
04-27-2016, 10:00 PM
A culture and sensitivity sample should be collected prior to antibiotics. Since she has been on ceftaz for a while it's probably not the first thing the vet wants to do. It sounds like she wants to explore pneumonia or the presence of abscesses or foreign bodies first (with the radiograph, though I think CT would be better). There are increasing accounts of ceftazidime resistant bacteria and at some point a culture and sensitivity may have to be done, most certainly if there is no indication for the snake to not be getting better. If I recall correctly, the last culture and sensitivity I did grew a bacteria that was resistant to all but 1 or 2 tested antibiotics (we usually test 8-10). It is a serious problem.
Kadabasaur
05-06-2016, 11:23 AM
Hello! I'm back again and I'm happy to report Pandora is completely back to herself, apart from being thirsty!
She's been climbing, noseying about her cage like she used to and I've just managed to feed her 15 full fishes!
No more tired snake, and weird breathing noises either.
I am so happy, and thank you for all the help. Looks like I just needed to wait for her to respond to the antibiotics :)
included photos of the happy lil noodle
joeysgreen
05-06-2016, 11:51 AM
That's great to hear. Reptiles heal slowly. Make sure you finish the antibiotic prescription so that the infection is less likely to come back.
Albert Clark
05-06-2016, 12:17 PM
That's great Kad! Hoping that she remains healthy. I hope those were f/t pieces of fish and not live. 15 live fish is more than enough.
guidofatherof5
05-06-2016, 12:55 PM
Awesome update. Glad things are back to normal. Another 30-60 days like this and you can relax. Just my opinion.
Kadabasaur
05-06-2016, 02:44 PM
They were f/t. They're quite small. I normally put 15 out and she can eat as much as she likes. She must of been hungry cause she couldn't eat that well for a few weeks
She only got 3 injections of the antibiotics. Shes not due anymore.
Yes definitely guidofather. I'll be keeping a very close eye on her but all is looking well!
Albert Clark
05-06-2016, 06:19 PM
Kudos to you with the f/t. Nice. Hope she remains healthy.
Kadabasaur
07-22-2016, 04:30 PM
So I came home tonight to find Pandora had passed away.
She had been completely fine, eating normally, breathing normally, she was roaming her branches before I left for work today and when I got home 5 hours later she was gone. I have no idea what happened.
Albert Clark
07-22-2016, 04:54 PM
So I came home tonight to find Pandora had passed away.
She had been completely fine, eating normally, breathing normally, she was roaming her branches before I left for work today and when I got home 5 hours later she was gone. I have no idea what happened.
Whattttttt! OMG! So sorry to hear this. It's really amazing how reptiles can harbor illnesses for long periods of time and hardly show they are sick until the illness is advanced. And also how they don't heal quickly either. This is a sad day Kad! You did do all you could for her and that's how you have to look at it. Sorry again.
guidofatherof5
07-22-2016, 05:58 PM
Sorry to hear about Pandora's passing.
Kadabasaur
07-23-2016, 05:11 AM
Thanks for your help with her and your words guys. I think its gonna be quite a few sad days. She's been with me for a long time, she moved out with me haha.
I just feel so lost right now.
Albert Clark
07-23-2016, 03:00 PM
Thanks for your help with her and your words guys. I think its gonna be quite a few sad days. She's been with me for a long time, she moved out with me haha.
I just feel so lost right now.
Try not to blame yourself bc you really did all you can and that means a lot. We all have been there and had our animals die. Some unexpectedly. Stay in peace and not pieces.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.