Can different subspecies conceive of spring?

[Speedmark]

Hi I was wondering, can subspecies conceive of spring?

I just saw my yearling male Thamnophis eques vergatenius lock with my adult female Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis.
I have my 2 couples garter snakes housed together in one cage.
The vergatenuis are yearlings and my infernalises are adults.

Because my adult male infernalis is a lazy bum and not in the slightest interested in the female, and the young vergatenuis is all over her.
My female has just shed and now they are locked.

Does anyone know more about this?

[Albert Clark]

Hey Speed, t.e. vergatenius and t.s. infernalis don't usually meet naturally as breeding pairs. So, I think having them lock and may mean you will be producing a hybrid animal from the pairing. A better pairing would be with another opposite sexed infernalis and another t.e.vergatenius or t.e.obscurus. Even another Mexican garter subspecies. It may be better to consider housing the females together in one enclosure. And the males in a different one if you are considering a breeding project or you want to avoid this in the future. I mean , I don't know if this was something you wanted or not. Anyway, welcome to the forum. Nice to have you here.

[Speedmark]

Thanks for the reply Albert.

I get it that they come from different locations in the wild, and I'm not planning to breed hybrids.
The adult infernalis male was not interested in mating with the adult infernalis female, so I just tought I was not going to have a litter this year.
The Thamnophis breeder I got the snakes from told me that T.sirtalis, T.eques, T.marcianus (all the subspicies) could not conceve ofspring so he said it's oke to house them together.
Does anyone know if this is true? (The guy really has a lot of knowledge of the garter snakes so I believe him, but now that they mated I really want to know for sure.

The virgatenuis I have are very young so I thought the male was not sexually active yet, but boy was I wrong.

Thanks for welcomming me! :) (I still have to update my profile hihi.)

[Albert Clark]

Then if that's the case I say go with that. Certainly hemipenal structures vary and are compatible with only certain female structures. That I really can tell you for sure. If you saw them locked then I would think that they are compatible and could reproduce. I will try to research it and come back with any pertinent information I find. I would definitely ask the breeder if they locked does that mean there will be no hatchlings to worry about..

[Albert Clark]

The other thing is t. Marcianus and t.s. infernalis are not subspecies at all and t.e.virgatenius are not subspecies. T.s.s. is a species of which t.s.infernalis is a subspecies but t.e.virgatenius and t. Marcianus are classified differently.

[Speedmark]

Thanks, I would really appreciate it! :)
Yeah good Idea, I'm going to mail the breeder.

[joeysgreen]

I would bet that different species of garter snakes could produce hybrid offspring. Certainly stranger snake hybrids have been created.

[Jeff B]

Who is the breeder that told you that? Hybrids certainly have been produced before, but not sure how easy or how often that actually occurs, versus number of attempts.

[Albert Clark]

The other thing is t. Marcianus and t.s. infernalis are not subspecies at all and t.e.virgatenius are not subspecies. T.s.s. is a species of which t.s.infernalis is a subspecies but t.e.virgatenius and t. Marcianus are classified differently.
Speed, this statement i made is actually incorrect. Sorry, the thing is, T.Marcianus, and T.E. virgatenuis have their own sub species that is not in the species of the common garter snake T.S. T.S includes T.S. infernalis is in the Common garter snake species. :eek:

[guidofatherof5]

What's done is done but I would never house different sexed different species together. Nature finds a way to continue things on. No offense but I hope the mating didn't take and no hybrids are born.

[Speedmark]

What's done is done but I would never house different sexed different species together. Nature finds a way to continue things on. No offense but I hope the mating didn't take and no hybrids are born.

I also hope no hybrids are born, but the question I had was CAN they be born?
Because when I bought them at the breeder, Steven Bol.
He said that the different species couldn't conceve offspring together.

[guidofatherof5]

I also hope no hybrids are born, but the question I had was CAN they be born?
Because when I bought them at the breeder, Steven Bol.
He said that the different species couldn't conceve offspring together.

Only time will tell.

[Albert Clark]

I also hope no hybrids are born, but the question I had was CAN they be born?
Because when I bought them at the breeder, Steven Bol.
He said that the different species couldn't conceve offspring together.

Well, I wish we could get the clarification on exactly which species specifically Steve was referring to. Your saying he said male and female of T.E.virgatenuis, T.S.infernalis, and T. Marcianus cannot reproduce? As in a male T.E.virgatenuis to a female T.S.infernalis and or T.Marcianus male to either of the other two subspecies? I know it does exist where some species are incompatible with others but I don't know which. I just wish we could find out exactly. I have been looking for specific answers but haven't found it yet.

[d_virginiana]

Hopefully you don't end up with hybrids from this, but IMO the only way to be absolutely sure you won't end up with offspring is to house males with only other males and females with only other females.

I don't know what that breeder was basing that on... I mean, certain species of thamnophis may have a more difficult time breeding with others, but as far as I'm aware there's no concrete evidence that they CAN'T mate with one another and create offspring.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Wow what an unusual pairing. Im pretty sure these two species have never been housed together before. They may or may not produce offspring who really knows...no one.

[Tommytradix]

Wow what an unusual pairing. Im pretty sure these two species have never been housed together before. They may or may not produce offspring who really knows...no one.
he will know eventually haha

[Albert Clark]

Its true Joe because the literature does put forth info about the incompatibility of certain species , subspecies with others. As a matter of fact ,it likens hemipenal structure variations to a type of lock and key mechanism. Some fit and some don't. I just can't find exactly which ones and whether the ones that do fit produce viable offspring. Peplexing and frustrating bc Speed says they were locked. So i guess hemipenes fit at least from the outside? :confused:

[Speedmark]

Yeah I did make some pictures, I guess I'll just post them.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13235&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13236&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13237&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13238&stc=1

[Speedmark]

Here a few of the lock.
He was being dragged around.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13239&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13240&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13241&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13242&stc=1

[Eddie]

I would expect babies from that pairing

[Jeff B]

What's done is done but I would never house different sexed different species together. Nature finds a way to continue things on. No offense but I hope the mating didn't take and no hybrids are born.
Couldn't agree more. Very tactfully stated Steve.

[Speedmark]

Oke I got an e-mail back from Steven.

I'll translate it.


Hello Steven,

Some time ago I bought a pair virgatenuis from you, at that time you said that it was fine to house my infernalis and virgatenuis together.
So I did that and it went fine.

Only a shame that my male infernalis has no interest in my female but so be it, next year better.

But my infernalis female just shed and I saw that my virgatenuis male was locked and mating with my infernalis female.

I think you said that they can't get offspring together, but now I'm beginning to doubt that, that's why I'm sending this mail.
I'd gladly hear from you.

Greetings Mark.



Hi Mark, I didn't expect that because they are not closely related... bummer. Or your infernalis already mated and you missed it, or you are going to get hybrids. You can't do anything with those.

Like I explained to you before I often house 2 different specie pairs together, and 9,9 times of 10 if both males and females are in good shape they'll keep it with their own species. The only times I got hybrids (not wanted) were if 1 of the 2 genders was not in the right condition to breed...

Then It's wise to house them apart I fear...

BTW The offspring could be very beautiful...

Either way make some pictures...

Greetings. Steven (and I'm sorry)


This is roughly translated so some words are different than in my language.

I have not asked him for premission so keep this mail on this forum/Thread please.

[Tommytradix]

I would expect babies from that pairing
yea me too. looks pretty official ahha

[Albert Clark]

Mark, hi. Did you subject either or both of them to a cooling period at any time prior to or after housing them together? Also, at anytime b4 pairing them?

[Speedmark]

Mark, hi. Did you subject either or both of them to a cooling period at any time prior to or after housing them together? Also, at anytime b4 pairing them?

Yes both species had a cooling period.
The younger ones a smaller time period but yes they had one.

They were housed together before the cooling.
After the cooling there was no mating.
A few months later/ now they mated.
Maybe because the weather is getting a little better.

[Albert Clark]

Yes both species had a cooling period.
The younger ones a smaller time period but yes they had one.

They were housed together before the cooling.
After the cooling there was no mating.
A few months later/ now they mated.
Maybe because the weather is getting a little better.
Wow! Probably a combination of factors why they bred. I asked bc i was hoping that one or both were not conditioned enough to be reproductive. Just as Steve mentioned. Hopefully no hybrids will be born. Some time pairings don't yield results. Fingers crossed that she doesn't.

[Tommytradix]

id rather see her drop a healthy litter than drop a few slugs and end up dead due to impaction. either way good luck!!

[Pythonmdk]

Did anything ever come out of this? Hope the female faired ok, she looks great!

[Speedmark]

Oh, I see I never replied to this thread...
Yeah, she had offspring and they were indeed hybrids.
I think I kept the pictures somewhere. Hmmm gonna need to look for those.

Yesss I found them after some digging.

It was a healthy litter and she did great.
Here they are:
https://nl.pinterest.com/mcmvh/fotos-hybride-kousenbandjes-nakweek/

[MNGuy]

Oh, I see I never replied to this thread...
Yeah, she had offspring and they were indeed hybrids.
I think I kept the pictures somewhere. Hmmm gonna need to look for those.

Yesss I found them after some digging.

It was a healthy litter and she did great.
Here they are:
https://nl.pinterest.com/mcmvh/fotos-hybride-kousenbandjes-nakweek/

Interesting. Which photos are of the babies as adults?