2016 pastel het granite....

[Albert Clark]

A litter from one of my gravid pastels dropped earlier today and so far only three scrubs came from this particular female. One of the scrubs looks like a albino pastel or albino granite. What do you think about the patterning?http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13195&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13196&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13197&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13198&stc=1Just looking for opinions. Pairing was pastel checkered het granite x pastel checkered het granite.

[Albert Clark]

I'm thinking and leaning towards albino pastel checkered but the granite patterning still seems apparent. Maybe i'll see a change after the first shed and it (the patterning) will be more apparent.

[guidofatherof5]

Beautiful.

[Albert Clark]

Beautiful.
Thanks.

[Albert Clark]

Seeing more pastel patterning. Less of the the granite flecking. I will be glad to see her after a couple of sheds to really tell. Super albino pastel? I haven't sexed it yet.

[bigsnakegirl78]

Yeah I'm leaning towards pastel albino over albino granite as well, pattern looks like normal checkered pattern to me.

[Albert Clark]

Yeah I'm leaning towards pastel albino over albino granite as well, pattern looks like normal checkered pattern to me.
Thanks bsg, I am going to hold this little one back and see the changes as she grows.

[Tommytradix]

how did you get albino from pastel het granite x same? they both had to also be het albino. so they were pastel double hets? and only one was produced?

[Tommytradix]

the pattern looks pretty normal to me too. its checkered and not speckled like granites. nice looking albino though! im still waiting for my pair of granites from you....

[Albert Clark]

how did you get albino from pastel het granite x same? they both had to also be het albino. so they were pastel double hets? and only one was produced?
Thanks , but genetics is not a exact science. My original pair of pastels het granite are the parents of this albino scrub. I can't explain it, thats why i am asking for opinions on the patterning.

the pattern looks pretty normal to me too. its checkered and not speckled like granites. nice looking albino though! im still waiting for my pair of granites from you....
Thanks again. Definitely not normal checkered patterning. Its either a albino pastel checkered which is where i am leaning with the patterning. Since granite is a pattern mutation moreso, i see some of that in this individual. I am waiting for my albino radix pair that you gave me a quote on then just never got back to me after i said to you that was what i wanted. Anyway, i only have 1 male holdback visual granite at this point. Waiting for the other female to drop.

[Albert Clark]

Maybe this albino is a super albino pastel granite checkered? Supers are usually a all white animal with some variable coloration depending on the species.

[Tommytradix]

Thanks again. Definitely not normal checkered patterning. Its either a albino pastel checkered which is where i am leaning with the patterning. Since granite is a pattern mutation moreso, i see some of that in this individual. I am waiting for my albino radix pair that you gave me a quote on then just never got back to me after i said to you that was what i wanted. Anyway, i only have 1 male holdback visual granite at this point. Waiting for the other female to drop.[/QUOTE]
i didnt produce any albino only red albino and snows

[Tommytradix]

they all sold out in a week too. im not that active on here as much as i am on facebook.
i dont expect to produce any normal albinos in the future only red albinos and hybinos.

[Albert Clark]

These are the other two scrubs pastel checkered siblings born 4- 9- 16. Healthy and active. :Dhttp://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13199&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13200&stc=1

[Albert Clark]

Thanks again. Definitely not normal checkered patterning. Its either a albino pastel checkered which is where i am leaning with the patterning. Since granite is a pattern mutation moreso, i see some of that in this individual. I am waiting for my albino radix pair that you gave me a quote on then just never got back to me after i said to you that was what i wanted. Anyway, i only have 1 male holdback visual granite at this point. Waiting for the other female to drop.
i didnt produce any albino only red albino and snows[/QUOTE]
It was the red albino. It's fine.

they all sold out in a week too. im not that active on here as much as i am on facebook.
i dont expect to produce any normal albinos in the future only red albinos and hybinos.
That's fine too. Gotcha. Thanks.

[Albert Clark]

Think I got the confirmation today. Based on the history of the parentage and grandparentage this scrub is most likely albino pastel checkered possibly het for granite checkered. Thanks all who weighed in. Can't wait to put some size on this one too. Hoping its female. Lol.

[Albert Clark]

Sadly, i have to report that the female of this litter(Pastel checkered het granite) pushed out a scrub that was deceased when i found it today. Scrub must have been born last night or early this morning bc it was not in the tub late yesterday afternoon or early evening. Appeared to have made it out of the membrane but seemed to have been partially decomposed at the mid body. :( :(

[Tommytradix]

I'm thinking and leaning towards albino pastel checkered but the granite patterning still seems apparent. Maybe i'll see a change after the first shed and it (the patterning) will be more apparent.

from my experience the pattern don't change, only colors

[Tommytradix]

sorry to hear you lost one. what do you mean it was decomposed?

[Albert Clark]

from my experience the pattern don't change, only colors
Yeah, thats what i'm referring to is the pattern becoming more apparent. However, i already see that this animal is pastel checkered. Thanks man.

sorry to hear you lost one. what do you mean it was decomposed?
Thanks again. The whole animal was intact,but at the midbody, it appeared that the area was just severly dehydrated and decomposed. I really was perplexed by it. Fully formed except for the mid body region? :(

[Albert Clark]

sorry to hear you lost one. what do you mean it was decomposed?
Thanks again Tom. The deceased was a pastel and not a granite.

[Albert Clark]

how did you get albino from pastel het granite x same? they both had to also be het albino. so they were pastel double hets? and only one was produced?
Not necessarily Tom. I think this is more related to what you said later about the polymorphism in garters or it could just be a random mutation.

[Tommytradix]

Not necessarily Tom. I think this is more related to what you said later about the polymorphism in garters or it could just be a random mutation.
albino is a recessive. no connection to polymorphism/polygenic

[Albert Clark]

albino is a recessive. no connection to polymorphism/polygenic
I know that, but the animal is also harboring a codominant gene in pastel. The parents are both Pastel het granite. No albino gene in either of them.

[Tommytradix]

so how did you get albinos?? there has to be albino in both....

[Tommytradix]

you cant produce albinos without the albino gene

[Albert Clark]

so how did you get albinos?? there has to be albino in both....
There probably was a random mutation that produced the albinism. Negative.

you cant produce albinos without the albino gene
That's not true.

[Tommytradix]

please explain....

[Deac77]

There has to be a albino gene on both sides down the line some place, a genetic mutation just doesn't pop up, and if it does I bet the university I'm at for herpetology would buy the pair from you to double check. This would be one of the first ever witnessed "genetic mutations" to occur in a captive setting.

[Tommytradix]

the most popular/most cb bred checkered morph is albino. so its not a far stretch to say they were bred to albinos/pastels along the line somewhere. also pastels are extremely common in the wild. if a mutation did occur in the baby it would be het not visual. for it to be visual the mutation would of had to occur in both adults first to produce a albino.

[Albert Clark]

please explain....
As I said in post# 10 of this thread "i can't explain it". I do have a suspicion on how it may have surfaced as a albino though. And that is bc of the countless possibilities combinations of genes produces in the mating of two individuals. All snakes are genetically different. Only maternal twins possess the same genetic makeup. These pastels also are het for granite and have been closely bred and not line bred with different blood. Its possible to me that this is a genetic defect in the amelanism or albinism in this particular individual. Humans of color produce albinism occaisionally even when both parents are humans of color. This is how i see it. You saw the two normal colored pastel sibling hatchlings.

[Albert Clark]

There has to be a albino gene on both sides down the line some place, a genetic mutation just doesn't pop up, and if it does I bet the university I'm at for herpetology would buy the pair from you to double check. This would be one of the first ever witnessed "genetic mutations" to occur in a captive setting.
I know the breeder and what the animals were paired to from the original parents down through the the third generation. This is the first occurrence of a albino or amelanistic individual being produced from these pairings. Maybe a genetic mutation doesn't just pop up but there are random mutations that occur. Remember genetics is not a exact science.

[Deac77]

the most popular/most cb bred checkered morph is albino. so its not a far stretch to say they were bred to albinos/pastels along the line somewhere. also pastels are extremely common in the wild. if a mutation did occur in the baby it would be het not visual. for it to be visual the mutation would of had to occur in both adults first to produce a albino.


exactly, even here we have a wild population consisting of pastels and several albinos have been found as well.

[Deac77]

The fact that sibblinngs were normal only enforces the probability that parents are het.

[Deac77]

It it did just occur I'll consult with my professor and see if he'd be interested, in a lab setting this could be amazing.

However I truly believe it would just be a case of the parents been 66% or less.

[Albert Clark]

Welcome to the forum Deac.

[Deac77]

Since 2014 lol

[Tommytradix]

It it did just occur I'll consult with my professor and see if he'd be interested, in a lab setting this could be amazing.

However I truly believe it would just be a case of the parents been 66% or less.
the parents would be 100% het to produce visuals. 66% is used for the percent of the litter that is het. so 34% wouldnt prove out but the other 66% would. in other words lets say the snake had 100 babies. 66 would be 100% het while 34 would not be.

[Tommytradix]

I know the breeder and what the animals were paired to from the original parents down through the the third generation. This is the first occurrence of a albino or amelanistic individual being produced from these pairings. Maybe a genetic mutation doesn't just pop up but there are random mutations that occur. Remember genetics is not a exact science.
who was the breeder?

[Tommytradix]

As I said in post# 10 of this thread "i can't explain it". I do have a suspicion on how it may have surfaced as a albino though. And that is bc of the countless possibilities combinations of genes produces in the mating of two individuals. All snakes are genetically different. Only maternal twins possess the same genetic makeup. These pastels also are het for granite and have been closely bred and not line bred with different blood. Its possible to me that this is a genetic defect in the amelanism or albinism in this particular individual. Humans of color produce albinism occaisionally even when both parents are humans of color. This is how i see it. You saw the two normal colored pastel sibling hatchlings.

human genetics are not the same as reptiles....and unless the breeder started with wc individuals there is no telling what they were originally bred with. ive personally seen the anery gene skip 3 generations only to reappear when i bred one of the 3rd generation babies back to the original sire of the line in which he was also het albino and the females was a normal 66% het albino and i ended up getting snows anery albino and normals. from the 3 previous pairings i would have never thought any of the animals from that lineage would ever produce anything else than albino and normals

[Albert Clark]

Humans are not the same but the principle applies. Jeff told me what he started with and it wasn't wc. After 3 generations then that is where something went wrong. According to the literature parental to sibling pairing should cease after the third generation to avoid defects in genetic traits/ chromosomal abnormalities. Certainly it can start with defects in coloration.

[Tommytradix]

so you said they are het granite too. where are the granite? and where did jeff get them? scott? scott did alot of crossing of morphs.
what did jeff tell you he started with?

[Albert Clark]

human genetics are not the same as reptiles....and unless the breeder started with wc individuals there is no telling what they were originally bred with. ive personally seen the anery gene skip 3 generations only to reappear when i bred one of the 3rd generation babies back to the original sire of the line in which he was also het albino and the females was a normal 66% het albino and i ended up getting snows anery albino and normals. from the 3 previous pairings i would have never thought any of the animals from that lineage would ever produce anything else than albino and normals
My pastels were bred to granites and that is what i was told by Jeff. He never mentioned any albino pairings with the original parents. And i never paired them or the siblings to anything except pastel het granites.

[Albert Clark]

so you said they are het granite too. where are the granite? and where did jeff get them? scott? scott did alot of crossing of morphs.
what did jeff tell you he started with?
They are only het for granite as i know. What the granite that bred my pastels possessed genetically i am not privy to. They were a holdback pair.

[Tommytradix]

i think i rememeber jeff trying to produce super pastel albino granites after he produced that super pastel.

[Albert Clark]

Well your welcome to consult with him bc i know them as PASTEL HET GRANITE.

[Tommytradix]

yet no granite???

[annulataarethebest]

I really dont understand the pages of confusion in this thread.
Albert, your breeders are OBVIOUSLY het albino, there is no way around that, to produce albinos they would both have to carry the albino gene. It doesnt matter if the guy you got them from didnt say theyre het albino, you clearly proved them out as hets. In the wild the albino gene can be passed down for generations without surfacing... just each generation will be made up of hets and then possible hets and then one year they breed and genes match up and boom, albinos again. Same thing couldve happened here with yours.

[AntTheDestroyer]

While it is not absolutely impossible that a genetic mutation caused the albino to pop up it is highly unlikely. As Occam's razor teaches us the simplest answer is best and in this case the animals were probably het albino. It is not that much a surprise that a recessive gene was not expressed for a breeder that was not looking for it.

[Albert Clark]

so you said they are het granite too. where are the granite? and where did jeff get them? scott? scott did alot of crossing of morphs.
what did jeff tell you he started with?
They have always been het for granite. That's what they were sold as and that's what the breeder relayed.

[Albert Clark]

i think i rememeber jeff trying to produce super pastel albino granites after he produced that super pastel.
In that case, maybe he can shed some light on that pairing

[Albert Clark]

yet no granite???
There was no granites produced by the one female. However I am waiting for the f2 to drop her litter. They were both bred to the same male. If you recall last year the male bred his daughter which was not planned and a granite was produced from that pairing. The original female (f1) is the parent of (f2). Female( f1) produced 2 granites last year. I am waiting for her litter for 2016. Once again, genetics is not a exact science.

[Albert Clark]

I really dont understand the pages of confusion in this thread.
Albert, your breeders are OBVIOUSLY het albino, there is no way around that, to produce albinos they would both have to carry the albino gene. It doesnt matter if the guy you got them from didnt say theyre het albino, you clearly proved them out as hets. In the wild the albino gene can be passed down for generations without surfacing... just each generation will be made up of hets and then possible hets and then one year they breed and genes match up and boom, albinos again. Same thing couldve happened here with yours.
There is only confusion if you want it to be confusion. Once again genetics is not a exact science. It has nothing to do with what the breeder didn't say. It has everything to do with what he did say. You really can't compare the wild enviornment to captive terrarium enviornment bc they have differing effects on genetic outcomes.

[Albert Clark]

While it is not absolutely impossible that a genetic mutation caused the albino to pop up it is highly unlikely. As Occam's razor teaches us the simplest answer is best and in this case the animals were probably het albino. It is not that much a surprise that a recessive gene was not expressed for a breeder that was not looking for it.
Thanks for weighing in Ant.