breeding size

[big J]

What's the general size a female needs to be before you breed her I have one eastern female that's about 22 inches and the males I have are between 16 and 20 inches

[ssssnakeluvr]

generally they need to be around 18" or larger, males can breed after 12", they don't have to be very big. You want the females to be larger as it's harder on smaller younger females.

[Stefan-A]

So a 35 inch red-sided female should also be big enough to breed?

[Elliot]

So a 35 inch red-sided female should also be big enough to breed?

I think I'd wait another year. :)

[Stefan-A]

I think I'd wait another year. :)
I think she'll wait another year anyway.

Now if I could only get her to eat with the same enthusiasm as she used to. She eats as much as before (I'm keeping record), but smaller food items and more often. And you can't look or she refuses to eat.

[drache]

And you can't look or she refuses to eat.

has she always done that or is this something that came with her reduction in appetite?

[Stefan-A]

has she always done that or is this something that came with her reduction in appetite?
Oh that's a long story..

She used to be a very aggressive feeder, really charging at food items. This little dilemma started sometime around the time they mated, about 90 days ago.

Fed her worms once and after that, she became very picky. Wouldn't eat fish or mice, just worms. Fed her worms a few times, with plenty of supplements, but then I stopped and started offering only fish and mice until she started taking them again.

Initially just the smallest fish or parts of fish (ate only the head) and one 2 week old mouse per week, when I previously had been giving her one 3 week old or two 2 week old mice (she would have eaten a lot more than that). I always suspected that I might be over-feeding her, but she's still growing and the amount of food in relation to her own weight stayed under 10%.

Now, she won't eat in public, I have to put the mouse in the terrarium and go away, or leave it over night. She won't take it if anybody is close by.

I have no idea what changed during that time. They mated and I moved them to a new terrarium, but I moved them after she had already started refusing mice and fish.

I could spend an hour describing her current general behavior, but that's probably unnecessary.

Does she look gravid to you? (http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/happycouple1.jpg) Not to me.

[Thamnophis]

Stefan, you say after they mated.
Isn't she pregnant?

[Stefan-A]

Stefan, you say after they mated.
Isn't she pregnant?
I'm pretty sure she isn't, despite the fact that they mated. The picture I just linked to was taken a few days ago. I just checked my records, they mated 89 days ago.

[Thamnophis]

You never know. It is not said that she became pregnant right away after the mating.

[Sputnik]

She looks pretty big in that picture, Stefan. She could well be gravid.

[Stefan-A]

I think that might just be the angle. She's nowhere near as "fat" as any of the gravid snakes I've seen here. She shed two weeks ago and apart from still eating, she does behave like she's gravid.

Didn't somebody get a surprise birth a few months back?
Edit: Was that you, Esther? :D

Why can't these snakes just have a clear and unambiguous way of showing that they are gravid? ;) They could grow a large hook on their lower jaw and turn bright red, or something. :D

[Thamnophis]

Or start wearing big, not that elegant dresses...

[Stefan-A]

:D Indeed. Too bad they don't build nests either.

[drache]

it does seem that there is something off that got triggered by her mating
the most likely explanation would be that she's gravid, but in the pic she doesn't look that big
the mating may have caused hormonal changes even if the babies did not develop, or she's not gravid yet
she could be holding sperm - not sure how that would affect her hormonal balance
I wonder what would happen if you cooled her a bit
if she's holding sperm, that might trigger progress

[zooplan]

generally they need to be around 18" or larger, males can breed after 12", they don't have to be very big. You want the females to be larger as it's harder on smaller younger females.
Both measurements seems really small to me.
Actually I´m keeping a red sided male, that had his 5th shed yesterday it was 16 inch.
But its unbelievable that he should have breeding size because he´s about 3 month of age.

[Stefan-A]

Seems really small to me, too.

Mentioned in the Rossman et al. book (Table 4-3):
Female SVL at maturity: 426 - 570mm (sirtalis)
Male SVL at maturity: 360 - 387mm (sirtalis)

SVL = Snout - vent length.

The length varied between different regions. For females the SVL would be 16.8-22.4" (average 19.6), for males 14.2-15.2" (average 14.7).

I remember reading somewhere that males are sometimes already able to mate after their first hibernation and females after their second or third.

[ssssnakeluvr]

males don't need to beg big for breeding..usually after 1 year they are big enough to breed.

[zooplan]

thats a fact.
but as you can see in some examples, females can grow to breeding size in only one year too.
This seems to be a normal process in captive breeding, in a study of Dr. med. vet. Sassenburg (1983) it is documented that point of maturity went down from the age of 27 to 9,5 month within 5 generations. (T.s.parietalis)
Normal breeding size to me and most of the keepers I know around is 15" to 20" for a male or 24" and more for females.

Maybe females become bigger (heavier) with US-keeping conditions?
I´ve never seen such a big (and short) gravid female as "Don´s massive Garter" around in Europe.
Is there a special difference in maintenance?

[Stefan-A]

Are you talking about something like power feeding?

[zooplan]

don´t know the difference!
Maybe feeding, heating, space...vitamins,(((doping:D )))?
Maybe the differences are not as big as they seem to me?
But only a special technology of photographing???

[ssssnakeluvr]

I think a lot depends on the species...radix can get real bulky when gravid as teh wandering garters don't....

[Lee]

ssssnakeluvr, would you happen to have any photos of a gravid wandering? If it isn't as obvious then it would be helpful so I have an idea what to watch for. Thanks.

[ssssnakeluvr]

dang.....should have asked a couple days ago....my wandering jsut had her babies a couple days ago....