The state of the thamnophis hobby

[AntTheDestroyer]

Hello,
I am wondering how the people who have been in the hobby for a long time feel about its current state? It seems that there has been some interesting changes that happened over the past year and it is hard to judge their true effects as a new member. First is the loss of Scott Fezler and a good number of his snakes. I think we all agree that the circumstances behind this are strange so there is no need to further discuss this, but what about the effect on the hobby? Second is what seems to be a marked jump in popularity of this genus of snakes. Looking back you can definitely see a jump in prices and number of breeders. Is this a good thing for the hobby? Is there a comparison to the ball python industry right before its boom? Just Curious what everyone thinks, plus this forum could use some more activity.

[d_virginiana]

I haven't been keeping up with the number of breeders/pricing/what they're offering lately because I'm not in a situation to breed them or get new snakes at the moment, but I don't think there's ever going to be a comparison between garters and BPs in the US.

I think there are a couple husbandry reasons for this; namely the more complicated diet, large space requirement for their size, and tendency to be jumpy or nippy compared to the more docile BPs. The main reason I think will keep garters from reaching that level of popularity and diversity is the fact that they're incredibly common all over the US. Most people who are interested in flashy 'show-off' type animals (as it seems many of the people who get BPs are; not dedicated hobbyists and breeders, but the people who see a pretty snake and decide they want one) aren't going to shell out big money for an animal they see crawling around their back yard every day, even if it does have nicer colors. Garters' size isn't even impressive, and a lot of people prefer working with larger animals.

[Taso]

I don't think there's ever going to be a comparison between garters and BPs in the US.

I agree with everything Lora said, especially that part.
Also, now that Scott's breeders have been spread out, I think the hobby as a whole is up for a variety of upgrades.
When I first got into the hobby, there wasn't really a "facebook group" for garters. So, communication is definitely improving.

[Dan72]

As Beth mentioned Scott's group is spread out and mostly to individuals that I believe are planning to continue to breed. So no real loss there, hopefully. Garters as anyone that keeps them knows are work, more so than most species. Fast metabolism equals more feeding which means more poo & spot cleaning. What out ways all that in my opinion is that for a snake you're going to enter act with that often, their inquisitiveness and active personality trumps all possible negatives. Their are people spreading the word which is great! Facebook definitely helps. Like anything demand will always determine price. Thousand dollar garters? No. But I see nothing wrong with prices climbing and I think in some cases can go higher and be okay. I think the hobby is hotter and getting some recognition, all good. I think the breeders we have won't be enough to fill demand and that's ok too. Keep em wanting more.

[joeysgreen]

I see garters are continuing to move away from "wild and worthless" to mainstream captives, where they are true pets that are worth more than the purchase price, whatever that may be.

[Eddie]

I have been keeping and breeding garters for a long time. The very first albino that I ever had available to me was 32 years ago. It was an eastern that was found in upstate NY. The guy wanted $200 for it and I only got to see it from a crappy picture. I never ended up with it but that did help keep my interest in garters for many years. The use of computers in the last 15 years put morph possibilities and availability to anyone that wants to give breeding a shot. I like the fact that more and more people are keeping and breeding garters. Garters can be tough to keep up with especially if you are keeping multiple snakes and multiple species. I keep anywhere from 80-500 garters at a time depending on birth rates. I never really tried to market them as a business. I try to use what I produce to cover food costs and trade for other morphs. As far as changes in the last year the big one is the loss of Scott in the hobby. He really did know his stuff and was excellent at breeding. I wish all new comers good luck and keep up the good work.
Ed

[AntTheDestroyer]

Just playing devils advocate but is no one concerned with problems that come with popularity in the hobby? For example not knowing the condition your offspring are being put into, or those who are only concerned with making a profit on these animals. I guess it is wishful thinking hope that certain things will never change, or that when they do they will only change in a way you see fit. Even though I find ball pythons and all the morphs incredibly fascinating from a genetic point of view, I don't know if I would fit into to the ball python community as a whole for the reasons some of you laid out.

[Dan72]

Ant I'm not sure I follow what your point is. I think most people that purchase garters want a pet. Stop at one or two, maybe three and call it good with no interest in breeding them. Nobody jumps in to garters to make a fast buck and clean up, it just doesn't work that way. Mainly because if that is your attitude or thinking that person is going to learn quickly that there is too much commitment (work) involved to make that happen for someone that is not in it for the love of the animal. Garters seeing a rise in popularity I believe just means more people looking for a cool pet once the word has gotten to them that garters rock. The other thing about the garter community that everyone is on the same page with is, no hybrids. The community doesn't want them and that helps keep everything pure, you know what you're getting. Any animal that is worked with because dollars are the ultimate end game, they don't last. Breeders do what they do for the love of the animals they keep and if money happens to come with that then so be it. But I think most would agree what is sold in a season keeps everything going for the year and to see the next season come.

[AntTheDestroyer]

Dan, I definitely agree that the current long time breeders I have had interaction fit to your description of the awesome community you describe. This is part of the reason I have been interested in the hobby. My point is if there is enough demand to increase the price of certain morphs, then there could be enough draw to increase the likelihood of greedy breeders as you see in ball pythons. I could certainly be wrong in my assumption, but I just wanted to clarify my thoughts. I certainly hope these breeders will not succeed but that certainly does not mean they do not try at the expense of the animals. The ball python community is most definitely on same page at large about the hybrid issue, but I think they have the advantage that there is not really a species so similar to a ball python than many of the garters are. I just worry as garters become more popular that because understanding different species is not so easy as many snakes that hybrids will pop up with little recognition than by those with experience, which is a relatively small group. A similar thing happened with corn snakes with creamsicle/rootbeer and possibly tessera morphs. Could a breeder say they want a certain morph of one species that exists in another similar species and cross the two? I think now with few breeders and people serious about morphs it is fairly certain to track, but with more and more joining this becomes proportionately harder. At the end of the day there is not much a person can do to stop such changes, but I think it is interesting to discuss it.

[joeysgreen]

Ant, my take on it is that the more people added to any group will increase the odds of a bad apple, which may lead to more rotten fruit... but overall, popularity doesn't lead to that group's downfall.
From a differing point of view, while we are discussing the garter snake keeping hobby as a separate facet, it is still part of a dynamic, growing reptile keeping hobby that is experiencing growing pains. Everyone is learning from what happened with ball pythons.

Ian

[d_virginiana]

The thing is, with any animal that isn't either
A) So expensive you'd better put the effort into keeping it alive, or
B) A dog, cat, or horse
You're going to get people who just don't care about them and view them as throw-away pets. This happens even with small mammals like rabbits that everyone thinks are adorable and obviously have emotions/reactions that people can understand. It's even worse with animals like snakes that most people have a hard time understanding.
There are already plenty of people with garters out there who are like that I imagine; why else would the less reputable large dealers sell a bunch of offspring from wild-caught females every year at rock bottom prices? Just like with any animal, I think you'll see that the people who bother to look up reputable breeders are going to generally at least be decent owners, and the people who want the cheapest, easiest to obtain animal and buy on a whim are going to typically be poor snake keepers. I do think most of the people who just don't care aren't going to be very noticeable to the garter community as a whole because it is a comparatively very small and close-knit group. Compare that to the bigger ball python communities with 50,000 plus members where no one really knows anyone else except for people who have been around and active for years.
If you don't really care, it's probably a lot easier to post in a community like that than it is in one like this just because of the added feeling of anonymity...

[joeysgreen]

I agree with you Lora, but wouldn't separate the dog/cat/horse since they see just as many low-end owners that view animals as disposable. On the other end of the spectrum, comes a good example from aquaculture. One of the most common fish seen in veterinary medicine is the 50 cent gold fish. Why? Because they are so hardy, it's not hard to keep them alive for eons. The human-animal bond grows, and that is when care (husbandry, veterinary or otherwise) really takes off.

[Albert Clark]

I think the hobby and the business are becoming more and more intertwined. Every one who buys a garter or a ball python wants to get into breeding them. Years ago, you didn't see this. People went to pet shops to get their animals. Like everything change finds its way into and around the status quo. Scott put in his time and as a pioneer in the garter snake world is probably the most respected and well known name. A true loss to the hobby/ industry. His collection and surplus is still around. Others have and will step up. We have to. There is a renewed interest in garter snakes and it needs to be complimented. Yes, I think it's a good thing to see the jump in prices and the number of breeders of garters. The ones with the passion and commitment will outlast the others. Same thing with the ball python hobby/industry. How many times do you see whole collections for sale? Frequently, right? It's up to us to get the word out to others interested in hearing about the amazing garter snakes. I gave a presentation to my local herpetological society on the 21st of this month (Sunday) titled a "introduction to garter snakes and a overview". The president of the society said in his 26 years with the organization that there was never a presentation on the garter snake! We really have a lot of work to do getting the word out about garters. We have to make appearances at these expos and these repticons with garters. We have to educate, promote, and reeducate. Just my 0.02 cents.

[Eddie]

Very well said Albert

[Albert Clark]

Very well said Albert
Thanks. Appreciate that.

[BUSHSNAKE]

I could go and seek out Thamnophis species that nobody keeps, breed them, have babies and i would probably have a hard time getting them into the hands of people who claim to be thamnophis enthusiasts. Thats one thing i never understood. So to the people who question other people im questioning you.

[joeysgreen]

Bushsnake, I don't think the draw to garter snakes is that they are rare, or hard to get; quite the opposite. Thus acquiring rare to the hobby Thamnophis species doesn't really target anything but the smallest niche of the group.

[Steveo]

I think the appeal of morphs and breeding go hand in hand. There's no need to breed something you can go pick up at your local park (regulations permitting, ofc). I could pick up a gravid T. e. vagrans this summer and not be able to give them all away. But most morphs are a rarity and rarity has value. You're not gonna get rich but if you can break even on your hobby by doing it, and you enjoy doing it, I understand that completely. If you buy a few pugets because you like them and can break even by selling a litter or two, maybe even make a few bucks for your trouble 2 or 3 years down the road, then that seems to be a viable idea.

It just so happens that some of the rare morphs/subspecies are really neat looking. It's not like BPs where every new morph is just a little different than the others. That adds to the value. The visual appeal is highest in some of the morphs that are hardest to get.

There's also the issue of thamnophis being a small community. Granted, I have been out of it for a few years (I came back here looking to see what happened to Scott Felzer), but now I have no idea where to go to get the morphs I like. Scott was a one-stop shop. He put a lot of snakes in circulation and that probably will have a negative impact on the gene pool down the road, but responsible breeders will work around that. Someone or multiple people will step up to fill that role. Having bad actors doesn't negate the good. You just have to do your homework.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Bushsnake, I don't think the draw to garter snakes is that they are rare, or hard to get; quite the opposite. Thus acquiring rare to the hobby Thamnophis species doesn't really target anything but the smallest niche of the group.All i was saying is theres alot of cool thamnophis out there that nobody pays attention to. Ive been around for some time now and i see the same **** year after year. Does everything have to be a rare morph to have desirable...no. whether something is common or not is relative. If your into milks or kings or boas and pythons theres a wide variety of that stuff available. The garter hobby isnt like that and it should be. Thats the point i was making

[AntTheDestroyer]

I am wondering what species you would like to see be made available, Bushsnake?

Thanks for the input everyone a lot of great stuff here.

On a side note for some reason I was under the impression that at least some of Steve's stock was sold off with giving fellow breeders much notice. I thought I read a few breeders were concernced that some great projects were lost, but I could be mistaken.

Also hello Steveo from a fellow Denverite.

[d_virginiana]

I think part of the issue with some of the 'rarer' species of thamnophis is that people who are interested in only breeding a litter or two and selling them off are going to want either something very eye-catching (like a CA red-sided) or something with a ton of pre-existing morphs that they can potentially buy and breed with their snakes (like easterns and radix). Another part of that is that they can be more or less certain that they'll be able to sell the offspring if they breed them. Someone with a large collection would probably be able to keep and care for a litter that didn't sell well than someone with just two or three snakes.
idk, I guess what I'm trying to say is that small time hobbyists that don't have a lot of connections in the herp community and don't have the means to care for large numbers of snakes long term are probably going to be wary of breeding the less common species because of the uncertainty involved with selling the offspring (since they can't look up a bunch of ads and see how much they cost and how quickly they sold like they can with some of the more common ones).

[Blueboost68]

I know on my end being the new guy that I am going to breed what I like in my eyes. it's not about the money but the beauty of what might happen with a pairing of snakes that no one else would think twice about. Now by no means is that the status quo, but if you dare to be different it's a open door and anything can happen.

[Albert Clark]

One of your biggest expenses in business and getting your products out there and sold is ADVERTISING! We, as breeders need to make appearances at these expos and these reptile shows. We have to promote the garter for what it is. The classic beginners snake and everything else has followed that lead.

[Tommytradix]

One of your biggest expenses in business and getting your products out there and sold is ADVERTISING! We, as breeders need to make appearances at these expos and these reptile shows. We have to promote the garter for what it is. The classic beginners snake and everything else has followed that lead.
i sell 100-200 garters a year. more than half of this years litters got exported to china. the probelem is not advertising. its the contradicting captive care and husbandry that is floating around the internet.

[guidofatherof5]

i sell 100-200 garters a year. more than half of this years litters got exported to china. the probelem is not advertising. its the contradicting captive care and husbandry that is floating around the internet.

It would be helpful and informative if you could list some of contradictions. Thanks.

[AntTheDestroyer]

It would be helpful and informative if you could list some of contradictions. Thanks.
I have witnessed several occasions over the past year where someone goes on a rant about the difficulties of keeping garters. It leaves me scratching my head, but apparently they have a reputation. I think the biggest example is with feeding. There doesn't seem to be any cookie cutter guide, which in part is due that it varies from species to species. I think this turns a lot of people off of garter snakes.

[joeysgreen]

People like easy. Mice only, mice all the time. Any species that deviates, or has the potential to deviate from that, is risqué.


Tommy, I sure hope they didn't eat those snakes, or rip out their gall bladders for erectile dysfunction!