Checkered garter not eating

[ObsidianDragon]

My checkered garter ate--albeit lightly--all winter, only to quit two weeks ago. He's missed a week before when he was in blue, but this is new. Nothing has changed in his enclosure, and a friend suggested he may be too mentally occupied looking for non existent ladies. Could this be the case? If so, how long might it continue?

When I say he ate lightly, I meant he'd accept only 1 of multiple pinkies offered, even though by weight he should have had more. His food is always left in his enclosure and then his enclosure covered because he's a complete ninny. This is his second winter with me, but he was still a youngin' last winter.

I realize that 2 weeks without food is nothing in the scheme of things for most snakes, but I'm still new enough at this to worry, especially since this is unexpected, new behavior. (I expected my Russian rat to be a goober about food all winter, and yes she has been.)

I'm also reluctant to monitor his weight TOO often because again, he's not really keen on humanity. He'd much rather you didn't even LOOK at him never mind TOUCH him. I'll do it if I have to, but I try to stress him as little as possible.

[guidofatherof5]

You are correct about 2 weeks being nothing. Other than not eating is everything else normal? movement, eyes, tongue flicking, drinking, pooping?

[ObsidianDragon]

It's easier to objectively know it's nothing and harder to accept it when none of my snakes have done this before, haha.

He's pretty reclusive, but as far as I can tell, his behavior is normal--I spot him out, he flees the moment I look away, etc. He did tongue flick as per usual when I reached in to remove the rejected mouse (and had the nerve to act interested--too late, buddy!).

[guidofatherof5]

Try night crawlers.

[Albert Clark]

Well, you may be witnessing the snake sensing he's ready to go into a brumating state. Which is evidenced by the food refusals. Now , since it's been two weeks he is part of the way there. You can start by lowering his enclosure temperatures and turning off the extra or existing lighting. That will really start to clue him in to a brumation state. In that case you don't feed him for the next 60 to 90 days and just give him fresh water. On the other hand , keep the lights and heat on and see if he will accept different foods or come around to feeding once again. Make sure he is not ill also as a differential. Even if you just cool him down and turn off the lights for like 30 days that might be enough to reset his feeding clock.

[ObsidianDragon]

Wouldn't this be a little late for brumation? (Especially considering his native habitat--I'm jealous of Texas weather right now.)

I think I'll just double check his temps and try night crawlers or maybe fish. I wish he'd accept hand feeding but...nope, humans are terrifying. :)

[Albert Clark]

Wouldn't this be a little late for brumation? (Especially considering his native habitat--I'm jealous of Texas weather right now.)

I think I'll just double check his temps and try night crawlers or maybe fish. I wish he'd accept hand feeding but...nope, humans are terrifying. :)
Well, it may be late on the calendar as far as wild populations are concerned. But in the captive world there is a set of different conditions. Wild groups of checkered garters brumate for shorter periods of time than their northern and eastern cousins. In captive populations there are varying cues that can stimulate the behavior. Number one is food refusal or inappetance. Especially if there are no signs of illness or any females present. Just my .02 cents.

[d_virginiana]

IMO two weeks of food refusal doesn't indicate anything in and of itself, especially if he's as shy as you say he is (still needing to be left alone with the food after living with you two years is pretty shy). Especially jumpy snakes can be more easily put off eating by minor changes in their environment. I have a couple that won't take a meal if they've been startled or upset at all on feeding day. I personally wouldn't recommend brumating one just because he refused two feedings... Seems like an overcomplicated fix for something that probably isn't a problem at all.
Keep an eye out for other behavioral changes like Steve said, just to be safe.

Odds are he'll start eating again soon, or could be 'food-striking' for a specific food; I have several that will suddenly stop eating mice unless I scent them with whatever that animal's 'go to' fasting food is. Sometimes nightcrawlers, sometimes fish. One of mine hasn't eaten unscented mice in over a year lol. He's my super old blind one so I think he legitimately believes he's eating fish.

[Albert Clark]

Well, two weeks of food refusals should certainly raise a red flag. Taking into account the high metabolic rate of garters. Number one reason for food refusal fall on the keepers husbandry and enclosure accommodations or lack thereof. Food refusal is a sign that something is not right and the process of elimination should be undertaken starting with husbandry. If you were talking two days or four days even I could see it. Two weeks for a garter? At the least he should be cooled down to reset the feeding clock. High metabolic rate means a higher need or more frequent meals in a healthy and well adjusted garter who is comfortable in his enclosure.

[d_virginiana]

Um... No, usually about a month without food is when you should start to worry unless they are dropping weight. I'm well aware of garters' metabolism, as is Steve. Saying that two weeks without food for an adult garter is inherently dangerous and needs immediate action is just plain incorrect.

Telling an inexperienced garter keeper to brumate without a good reason is more likely to be dangerous than helpful, when the first course of action should be making sure the temps are staying on point and offering a wider variety of food items. Nine times out of ten offering nightcrawlers or silversides (scenting with the fish usually works too if someone is wary of using fish) will solve the problem.

"Two days or even four days": Most people feed their adult garters weekly, sometimes with snacks in between. You can't seriously be suggesting that two to four days is the threshold for a healthy food intake schedule... My sixteen year old blind garter doesn't even drop weight that quickly.

My usual feeding schedule for healthy adults is a pinkie mouse feeding once a week and a small snack of more easily digested food in between. That being said, my oldest male would often hunger strike for nearly a month during mating season when he was younger with no ill effects, and my subadult female blackneck will often skip two feedings when she's nearing a shed (one before and one after the shed); she's an absolute monster of a snake for her age.

[Albert Clark]

Um... No, usually about a month without food is when you should start to worry unless they are dropping weight. I'm well aware of garters' metabolism, as is Steve. Saying that two weeks without food for an adult garter is inherently dangerous and needs immediate action is just plain incorrect.

Telling an inexperienced garter keeper to brumate without a good reason is more likely to be dangerous than helpful, when the first course of action should be making sure the temps are staying on point and offering a wider variety of food items. Nine times out of ten offering nightcrawlers or silversides (scenting with the fish usually works too if someone is wary of using fish) will solve the problem.

"Two days or even four days": Most people feed their adult garters weekly, sometimes with snacks in between. You can't seriously be suggesting that two to four days is the threshold for a healthy food intake schedule... My sixteen year old blind garter doesn't even drop weight that quickly.

My usual feeding schedule for healthy adults is a pinkie mouse feeding once a week and a small snack of more easily digested food in between. That being said, my oldest male would often hunger strike for nearly a month during mating season when he was younger with no ill effects, and my subadult female blackneck will often skip two feedings when she's nearing a shed (one before and one after the shed); she's an absolute monster of a snake for her age.
Listen, Obsidian dragon is not new to this. My points of view and suggestions to the op are well founded. People agree to disagree on numerous fronts and this is one where we are just going to have to do that. Yes, any time a garter does not eat on a two week interval there is something wrong. You shouldn't say that my suggestions to brumate a non feeding snake is dangerous. There is absolutely nothing wrong with turning off the heat and the lights on a non feeding snake who has already been two weeks into a cycle. But you know what? I don't have the desire or inclination to go back and forth on issues that are clearly written into the literature. I said what I said to give the op a remedy for his garters state of being at the moment. Nothing that I proposed is anywhere near dangerous or incorrect. I have garters that feed on rat pinks , whole f/t frog legs, cut pieces of large f/t fish. When they don't eat for two weeks , trust me , somethings wrong. I feed my adult garters two times a week and 3 times a week when they are gravid. Trust me also, a pinkie mouse for a adult garter once a week is nutritionally deficient. A pinky mouse, especially a mice pinky and not a rat pinky is only a substandard meal for a adult garter. There is virtually little to any calcium or bone development in a pinky. Come on Lora.

[ObsidianDragon]

I didn't have snakes until 2014--I'm still pretty new at this, and have yet to brumate a snake ever, so in many respects I'm still pretty green. But, I still know to check my husbandry first. His temps were here I always keep them, 85 on the hot side. Nothing about his enclosure had changed lately--he has plenty of cover (3 plants, a cardboard tube, a reptile basics hide, a humid hide, and a ledge--he doesn't know what open space in his home IS). And he's been out and about (for his version of out and about) about as much as normal.

This particular garter came to me feeding on pinkie parts already--I'm not sure what other prey he'd eat, to be honest, as I've never offered him anything else either. I was going to try fish, but as it happens he took a pinkie mouse I left for him last night. Obviously that's not a full meal for him, but now I can think about offering the rat pinks I just received. Even if, to me, they look absolutely huge for my little shoestring snake. O.o

Anyway! Everyone ate last night yaaaaay.

[Albert Clark]

I never once said "two weeks without food for an adult garter is inherently dangerous and needs immediate action". Those are your words. What I did say was " Two weeks of food refusals should raise a red flag".

[Albert Clark]

I didn't have snakes until 2014--I'm still pretty new at this, and have yet to brumate a snake ever, so in many respects I'm still pretty green. But, I still know to check my husbandry first. His temps were here I always keep them, 85 on the hot side. Nothing about his enclosure had changed lately--he has plenty of cover (3 plants, a cardboard tube, a reptile basics hide, a humid hide, and a ledge--he doesn't know what open space in his home IS). And he's been out and about (for his version of out and about) about as much as normal.

This particular garter came to me feeding on pinkie parts already--I'm not sure what other prey he'd eat, to be honest, as I've never offered him anything else either. I was going to try fish, but as it happens he took a pinkie mouse I left for him last night. Obviously that's not a full meal for him, but now I can think about offering the rat pinks I just received. Even if, to me, they look absolutely huge for my little shoestring snake. O.o

Anyway! Everyone ate last night yaaaaay.

Ok. That's great! For the future however, there is nothing dangerous about brumation! Nothing wrong with resetting a feeding clock in a otherwise non feeding snake. They (snakes) have been brumating for many years through evolution. Males typically will go off food if they are breeding or recently bred, if they have the desire to breed (smell or sense females in their area). Other reasons for non feeding I spoke about previously. Any time your snake refuses food over a two week period is time to start triple checking your husbandry and start playing detective bc it is something wrong. Congrats on him resuming his feedings. A varied diet is also best. As far as the rat pinks are concerned and you think they are too large. Cut them up and place the pink in a feeding dish of some kind before placing it into the enclosure.

[d_virginiana]

A 'pinkie mouse' feeding means a feeding of pinkie mice, not a single mouse. I think you know I'm not feeding my snakes one mouse per week. Really.

"When they don't feed for two weeks, trust me something is wrong"
It sounds to me that you are implying two weeks without food is inherently dangerous or an indication of a serious health problem. Though, if you could point me to where it is "Clearly written into the literature" that garters should eat every two to four days, I may revise my opinion.

There is nothing inherently dangerous about brumation. I never said that. It is, however, a tricky thing to cool down a snake safely and then warm them up again if someone has never done it before and doesn't have a lot of experience changing up temps like that. There are also the inherent risks in brumating any animal that it can aggravate underlying health conditions. Thus making brumation a more complicated and potentially dangerous solution than offering a different food item. It can absolutely be done safely, but IMO it's ridiculous to suggest that before a dietary change has even been offered.

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ObsidianDragon, I'm glad he ate. It still won't hurt to pick up some nightcrawlers (you can cut them up) and some silversides to try scenting with. A new smell on the food may get him more excited about eating. Plus, I like to think they appreciate the occasional new food item :P

[Qwerty3159]

How big is your snake? My checkered sits somewhere in the 20-24 inch range and he fed on rat pinkies weekly without issue.

[Albert Clark]

A 'pinkie mouse' feeding means a feeding of pinkie mice, not a single mouse. I think you know I'm not feeding my snakes one mouse per week. Really.

"When they don't feed for two weeks, trust me something is wrong"
It sounds to me that you are implying two weeks without food is inherently dangerous or an indication of a serious health problem. Though, if you could point me to where it is "Clearly written into the literature" that garters should eat every two to four days, I may revise my opinion.

There is nothing inherently dangerous about brumation. I never said that. It is, however, a tricky thing to cool down a snake safely and then warm them up again if someone has never done it before and doesn't have a lot of experience changing up temps like that. There are also the inherent risks in brumating any animal that it can aggravate underlying health conditions. Thus making brumation a more complicated and potentially dangerous solution than offering a different food item. It can absolutely be done safely, but IMO it's ridiculous to suggest that before a dietary change has even been offered.

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ObsidianDragon, I'm glad he ate. It still won't hurt to pick up some nightcrawlers (you can cut them up) and some silversides to try scenting with. A new smell on the food may get him more excited about eating. Plus, I like to think they appreciate the occasional new food item :P
Clearly written in the literature "The Garter Snakes evolution and ecology by Rossman, Ford and Seigel. Page122 of chapter 6 titled "Care in Captivity". Among other literature that defines the preferred feeding regimen of captive garters.

[Albert Clark]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13118&stc=1
How big is your snake? My checkered sits somewhere in the 20-24 inch range and he fed on rat pinkies weekly without issue.
My checkered albino is approx. 32" and weighs 308 gms. My pastel checkereds, of which I have 2 large females are about 19" and about 70 to 78 gms each (2 females). They all are gravid now and get fed twice to three times a week.

[Albert Clark]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13119&stc=1This is another angle of her. I can picture the pastel checkereds tomorrow. I rest this case.

[Qwerty3159]

Lol I meant ObsidianDragon's snake, they thought the rat pinkies were too large for their snake.

Beautiful checkereds, though :D:D

[Albert Clark]

Lol I meant ObsidianDragon's snake, they thought the rat pinkies were too large for their snake.

Beautiful checkereds, though :D:D
Ok. I told ObsidianDragon he should just cut up the rat pinks ( cut while frozen to avoid blood and internal organ gore). Place them in a dish and into the enclosure. That would allow for smaller, manageable pieces.

[Albert Clark]

Of course, after cutting the frozen rat pink you allow it to thaw out. (No brainer). Just thought I should add that.

[d_virginiana]

Nice females.

I think research on captive exotics should typically be weighted with first-person experience. As I said earlier, I happen to feed my garters twice a week; one rodent feeding and one more easily digested nightcrawler feeding, which is actually in line with what that research recommends. However, I've also seen many people who feed theirs weekly with great success and healthy snakes, and given that evidence I couldn't rightly say that feeding weekly is an unhealthy practice. I have also seen MANY instances just like this where someone's healthy adult snake goes a couple weeks without taking food, and (barring the emergence of a more serious underlying health issue) offering different foods and keeping temps on point has been the solution. Sometimes brumating is the solution. My point is that offering different food items is zero risk compared to the slight risk of brumation (slight in the same sense that breeding is a slight risk; a perfectly acceptable husbandry practice) and takes little to no extra time to try. So there is no reason not to drop a nightcrawler into the tank and see if the snake is interested before jumping straight to brumation.

At any rate, I will continue not to brumate my blackneck female whenever she doesn't eat for two weeks surrounding a shed because she is perfectly healthy and surprisingly large for her age. And I will continue to worry about my geriatric snake and my hyper-energetic three year old male who tend to drop weight quickly when they skip more than one week of feeding. The others fall somewhere in between when it comes to eating vs. weight loss.

[ObsidianDragon]

He was 44 grams when I last weighed him (which was a few weeks ago--I don't bother him often.) He's a little longer than 20 inches, going by his length stretched out along his enclosure (good luck measuring him any other way).

[Albert Clark]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13120&stc=1My 2014 T.S. Concinnus 0.1 gravid. Takes down 3 rat pinks or two rat pups along with a select varied aquatic supplemented diet.

[Albert Clark]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13121&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13122&stc=1A group photo of my Pastel T. Marcianus het granite1.2 (this group feeds a bit lighter with hairless hoppers and aquatic supplementation )
Another pic of the T.S. Concinnus 0.1

[Albert Clark]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13123&stc=1My T.S. Infernalis female won't be producing this year. She is only 10 months old. My other female T.S. Infernalis also is too young to go this year. They both pound hairless hoppers 2, or three with supplemented aquatics.

[guidofatherof5]

Very glad to hear everyone is eating now. Great update. A couple weeks off food is not a big deal in most situation. If that is the only change in behavior I see no reason for you to be overly concerned.

[Albert Clark]

Obsidian, the best thing you can do for the health of your garters is to stay on top of your husbandry. When you become suspicious of your garters behavior, don't wait, investigate. That investigation should include triple checking the temperature zones in your enclosure, observing and listening for signs of illness. Keep the enclosure as clean as you can. Lastly, a varied diet. A rodent based diet is considered complete nutrition however a garter snake should be offered a aquatic based supplemented diet as well. F/t fish , cut up fresh fish ocean perch, tilapia , salmon, and other thiaminase deficient fish. Occasional f/t frog legs and nightcrawlers. If all he's had are rodents he should be excited about a new varied diet.