Smelly red goop piles on substrate

[cnphilips]

Sorry this is long, there's a lot on my mind!

In December of last year I drove 4 hours to adopt two captive bred (so told) garter snakes I found on petfinder. I'm a first time snake owner, but I am a wildlife rehbabber by profession. I work with reptile medications and injuries a lot (dog attacks, hit by car, stuck in trash, glue traps) but not with breeding or long term husbandry. These guys have doubled in size (now at 45 grams). They saw our local reptile vet in May, the same one we use at the wilifelife hospital.

I generally feed nightcrawlers every weekend. Friday 10/30 I fed petsmart minnows, they each ate 6, then a worm and a half. We've been swapping fish in once a month since June. I had asked my vet about supplmenting calcium, since we were only feeding worms and he said "feed live fish."

Thursday 11/5 they were out of the hideys and staring us down, which is usually their reminder that its time to eat again. We didn't have the worms until Sunday 11/8 so I expected the extra days to have made them even more hungry. But they each only ate 1 full worm, it's usually about 3, so that's not right. The next morning there were some reddish almost purple hardened goos on the carefresh.

I decided to move forward with a low dose of panacur (50mg/kg) in an earthworm. I tried last night and got one of them, Stripes, to go for the medicated worm chunk, he/she also ate 2 more worms. Blackie did not eat, ignored the moving worm.

More fresh,red, wet, incredibly smelly blobs appeared after the handling for feeding. The lack of interest from Blackie alarms me the most. I checked vents and both were a bit crusty, dirty, also something I don't like. Stripes looked to have a tiny amount of the red goo, and was near one of the fresh piles. I soaked both of them.

Is this a run to the vet situation? Is it a parsite symptom or am I jumping to conclusions? Is this a mating/ breeding symptom? Blackie's a girl, Stripes is cryptic, could be male. Anyone seen this before? Almost certain it's from the vent and not regurge but I could be wrong.

I'm feeling unhappy with thier current vet the more I read on this forum about fish dangers. We've had other problems with him at the hospital including bad surgeries, and he's difficult to get a hold of, but he is a reptile specialist, just maybe not a good one. So new dog/cat vet with reptile experience or not great reptile vet?

Attached is all the red blobs from the last three days. No new ones this morning. Both are alert. Variously on heat, on cool side.

Thank you for your time!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

See if you can get some better pics of the globs and maybe even a pic of the snakes. The pic you posted looks like blood drops and very well could be parasites (live fish are full of parasites). In most cases the parasites that cause fecal bleeding can't be treated with panacur and has to be treated with flagyl.

[guidofatherof5]

As stated better photos would be helpful. Can you get a fecal float done to verify the parasites?

[cnphilips]

I'm still working on getting a sample I can test, or a picture before its dry. I soaked them, and both left red and urate in the water. Stripes had a proper poo mixed in. So it's a little clearer that its both of them, and its definitely coming from the bowels so to say.

When the vet said fish I was surprised. I even said that everything I had read evrywhere that it would have parasites. He said "then you'll treat them for parasites if they get them" and shurgged. NOT HELPFUL. I took his lack of worry, or lack of further information as a green light, which was a mistake. I've de-wormed lots of things, but not snakes. I could've handled true worms, but this bleeding from the instetines is not an acceptable risk and wish I had better informed myself.

I'm also thinking flagyl, I'm not sure about the correct dose ( one book 25mg/kg, the other 250mg/kg). trying to attached photo of what was in water.
1283512836

[joeysgreen]

I am not a fan of "shot gun" medicating. Do not give deworming medications without cause. Have a fecal done. Have an exam done. Often times we don't jump to deworming because the animal needs other corrective measures attended to first. Deworming medications are often rather safe, but given to the wrong patient, at the wrong time, or a dose inappropriate for the situation can all cause serious damage or death.

As per the live fish; it's a matter of preference. I agree that feeding live fish is nutritionally beneficial, but also mentally stimulating. Having regular fecals and/or deworming just as you do with your dog or cat can be a means of managing this "unsterile" addition to the dinner table. It is up to the owner to decide which they prefer, just as they would decide to keep the snake in an empty Rubbermaid with paper towel, or a naturalistic vivarium. And just like with any other food source, if it's captive bred in proper conditions, the chance of parasitism is pretty low.

As an aside, is this vet a true reptile expert (as in he's a boarded specialist)? Just curious. From what you have said, there is nothing that he did or say that was wrong IMO; yet client communication might not be a strong point for him.

Ian

[guidofatherof5]

Be sure to separate the snakes until this situation of under control.

[guidofatherof5]

Just got this message from Steve Schmidt. Thanks Steve.

Here is a good article on flagyl (metronidazole) usage and dosage. Not that I'm recommending that cnphilips use it for this purpose(smelly red goop piles etc.), but at least it is good info. Please include this disclaimer if you post it.

Protozoan Parasites Treatment: Metronidazole (Flagyl) (http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Reptile-Health/Disease-Management/Protozoan-Parasites-Treatment-Metronidazole-Flagyl/)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I think flagyl requires a prescription from a vet anyway.
I am not a fan of "shot gun" medicating. Do not give deworming medications without cause. Have a fecal done. Have an exam done. Often times we don't jump to deworming because the animal needs other corrective measures attended to first. Deworming medications are often rather safe, but given to the wrong patient, at the wrong time, or a dose inappropriate for the situation can all cause serious damage or death.

As per the live fish; it's a matter of preference. I agree that feeding live fish is nutritionally beneficial, but also mentally stimulating. Having regular fecals and/or deworming just as you do with your dog or cat can be a means of managing this "unsterile" addition to the dinner table. It is up to the owner to decide which they prefer, just as they would decide to keep the snake in an empty Rubbermaid with paper towel, or a naturalistic vivarium. And just like with any other food source, if it's captive bred in proper conditions, the chance of parasitism is pretty low.

As an aside, is this vet a true reptile expert (as in he's a boarded specialist)? Just curious. From what you have said, there is nothing that he did or say that was wrong IMO; yet client communication might not be a strong point for him.

Ian

[Albert Clark]

Sorry to hear of the dilemma. One other thing to consider is the possibility of the fish discoloring the feces, urine, and urates. I know you said minnow and they have a pinkish coloration to them. Did you happen to give them goldfish? They can definitely discolor the snakes output as well. I do agree with Shawn that it seems to be blood mixed in as well. Bloody, foul smelling feces is a serious condition in snakes and does lend towards parasites. Fecal float is the way to go and the reptile vet as well. I believe it may be cryptosporidium that is the foul smelling , bloody condition but in any case better safe than sorry. Thanks for the descriptive story and hope all the replies lead you in the right direction. Welcome to garter snake country.

[joeysgreen]

I think flagyl requires a prescription from a vet anyway.
It technically is a prescription drug, but I am always amazed how easy it is to get this and much more dangerous drugs at pet stores (fish) and feedlot (livestock) stores. Not to mention the internet. I can't tell you how many cases we get with people having misused drug after drug and the assortment of pathogens are now resistant to everything under the sun and we can't do much more than search for rare drugs only available in other countries.

[cnphilips]

Any experience on lethargy and these sympotoms? There hadn't been any more bloody piles since Wednesday. I had to wait until my paycheck went in to afford the vet, so I've been soaking and monitoring closely, offering food daily. Blackie still hasn't eaten, but she's also not leaving blood trails or anything. I will go to the vet in the morning, but I've got flagyl (liquid formulation) right now. I already got a flagyl dose in Stripes, via food, but Blackie's had no medication yet.

I can tell Blackie doesn't feel good, she's too still. I know from treating rabbits and mice, once there are outward symptoms of illness its really bad, and you've only got about 24 hours to help, but they can rally back if you avt in time. But I also know that turtles can be sick for a long time before succombing, and they can rally back from some really horrible, prolonged stuff. I know this is weird to ask a forum, but do snakes give you enough time? If she's slowing down now, will she make it to the vet in the morning? I know you can't tell me from a medical point of view, but from an ancedotal experience. Can snakes rally? Any awesome stories of pulling through? Or is it more predicatable that I'm not gonna win this unless I do an emergency vet visit tonight? If a snake is "acting sick" are they already very,very sick?

Basically what I was hoping to get from the forum was an understanding of whether there's a bunch of other things that might cause the same symptoms. Like a live birth issue, or mating, or pigment, or a seasonal change. We should have gotten to the vet already, but now I'm just trying make a good call with what's in front of me right now. What I've got is a sick snake on a Sunday afternoon, and the vet is closed till morning. :(

[cnphilips]

Oh and thank you. For being there. Your reccomendations for a fecal, and not jumping on medication are valuable.

Here's a video. She's moving to the warm side (85 degrees).


https://youtu.be/DaX5883FSlY

[guidofatherof5]

I see a lot of swelling/edema from the heart down. A Vet. visit is called for A.S.A.P. Hoping and praying for the best.

[d_virginiana]

Agree with Steve, vet visit ASAP.

In general, I think snakes give you plenty of time to react and treat a medical problem. In my experience, once you start to see signs of lethargy (like listlessness, not just being less active) you're looking at a very sick animal and they're probably in the 'danger zone' where they need immediate treatment. As far as rallying back, it just depends on what's wrong. I've seen snakes come back from some really terrible situations, but I think a big concern is whether or not organ damage has occurred.

[cnphilips]

Thanks, yeah she did give me a whole week I just didn't use it well.

Made it through the night. Vet appoint. in 2 hours. I didn't get in with the reptile vet, but at least we're getting help.

This is mostly the freaking out talking but: does that swelling look like a cryptosporidium symptom too? Could it have been transferred by earthworms?

I'll know more after vet, obviously, just super worried at this point....

[guidofatherof5]

I don't think crypo from the worms is likely.

[cnphilips]

You were right, she is swollen in her heart and full of fluid. Treating for parasites, then if no improvement, the treat for heart condition or miscarriage complications. She's close to heart failure, but hasn't happened yet. Breathing is fine.


Had a longer post, but it keeps getting denied.

12846

[guidofatherof5]

Glad some treatment is happening. Garters are much like other animals in the sense that they mask their illness and pain until it becomes critical and then there isn't much time to do anything or they are past the helping stage.
Please keep us posted on this situation.

[joeysgreen]

I don't gain much from the radiograph; perhaps it's just the reproduction on the forum. The positioning isn't adequate for strong use, and a lateral view might be more helpful. If it is truly heart failure, there are medications that can manage the symptoms to extend a good quality of life, but it is ultimately a terminal problem. Was this an older snake?

[cnphilips]

She died at the emergency vet about an hour ago. She started twitching and flipped over. Vet had very little to offer, basically said that's what alot of snakes do right before they die there.

I can not express how heartbroken I am and I can not explain my behavior. I got medication in one snake, not the other and simply failed to act in time. I want badly to delete this whole thread, but I also want to leave it in case some other new snake owner finds their way to the search bar with the same symptoms. I just did not respond with the amount of concern that was justified. I never would have behaved this way with any of my other pets. I just took her casual behavior to mean I had some time, until it was obvious I didn't anymore. I just made all the wrong choices.

Blackie was one half of a pair of snakes that had spent their whole life together, and truly, truly enjoyed each other. I fell in love with them and now I need help caring for her buddy. None of this is fair to him/her and I think the only direction I can go with my devastation is to work harder to be an incredible snake parent for Stripes. So instead of deleting this, tucking my tail and hiding, I have more questions.

Will Stripes grieve too? What's comfort to a lonely snake?
Can Stripes get a new buddy, in time? Was growing up with a friend the only chance he had? Is there an age limit to introducing a new friend, or other major considerations?
Should I get a necropsy of Blackie, for Stripes's sake? I have the cryptosporidium test, so I'll be doing that either way.
Both vets thought Stripes was a girl, but I caught Stripes and Blackie attached (copulating) this spring. How do I confirm Stripe's gender for certain, should I confirm Blackie's through necropsy? Can either gender of garter snake have a companion of the same gender? Are males too territorial?
Is it possible that Blackie had a miscarriage? Any one seen that before?
Is there anything else I need to act on to make things better for Stripes?

Sorry to keep using the forum as my crutch, I just have never had a non-age related death like this with any of my pets, and I'm just feeling a little lost.

[guidofatherof5]

Stripes will not grieve in the sense people do. Stripes will miss the comfort of Blackie as there is safety in numbers.
Same size Thamnophis would be fine only after a quarantine period of at least 90 days.(in my opinion)
The necropsy is your call. If it helps answer some questions and makes you feel better then get it done if you can afford it.
Post up some under tail photos of Stripes and we'll sex her/him. I'll also link you to a page to show you the type of photos to post. It's also a great page to learn what the different sexes look like.
Best to house same sex unless you want little scrubs popping up.
Miscarriage is more of a mammalian term. Passing slugs or jellies would be appropriate for a Thamnophis. Seen many slugs and jellies in my time. Most of the time the snakes do fine afterwords.
You are not using the forum as a crutch so don't think that. This Thamnophis family is here to help you.
Keep your head up. Most if not all of us have lost snakes and some have been a direct result of what we did or didn't do.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/5069-sexing-pics.html

[joeysgreen]

I am very sorry for your loss and commend you for how you are approaching it. I don't have anything to add to Steve's post above, but welcome any questions you have in the future.

[Albert Clark]

Sorry for the loss of your garter. I will just say yes we have all lost snakes at one time or another for various reasons. You are not alone there. But for the future anytime you acquire any wild caught snakes remember that they are loaded with a host of diseases and potential diseases and they need immediate treatment and evaluation by a herp vet. Captive bred animals are a safer acquisition but not to say they don't require treatment as well. Captive bred animals aren't exposed to the pathogenic and bacteria as wild caughts are. Consider captive bred animals in the future.

[cnphilips]

I don't know if I'll do the necropsy, so I won't have a final stamp of what happened. But I do want everyone to approach the live fish feeding with caution. Just for clarification these were not recently captured wild snakes, and were more-likely-than-not captive bred. They were re-homed to us, so I can't be 100% certain where they started, but I don't think they were ever wild.

It think it's more likely that something nasty came in through the pet store minnows than anywhere else. There must have been other issues as well, especially since both snakes had similar symptoms but differing health from the start. The "miscarriage" theory came from the Monday vet, who actually left the exam room and called the zoo because she didn't know garters had live birth, and wouldn't believe me. Thank you for clarifying what that meant, and would have looked like.

I need a lot more information on diets, and introducing snakes, all sorts of stuff moving forward (including getting Stripes's gender nailed down). But I'm going to start new threads, and let this one lie where it is. Final thoughts: Just.... use your vet when you need to and ... people that like garters are super nice and supportive and I'm glad to be a part of the community now, just wish it had been on better terms.

Thanks guys.

[cnphilips]

Took Stripes to the vet this morning to make sure we were through it. She was weak so we tube fed and did injectable antibiotic.

She died at the vet.

Same swollen heart as you can see in Blackie's x-ray.

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear Stripes didn't make it. Sounds to me like both snakes had something coming into your care. Time to disinfect everything with a 1 to 10 (bleach to water)mix.
You have been dealt a tough hand with both snakes. Hang in there as we can see your are a good, caring keeper.

[cnphilips]

Right now theres just a list of what it probably isn't and a shorter list of what it might be. Mostly looking for changes in care. I assumed it was parasites from the last two feeds (live minnows, then nightcrawlers) but this vet says that's unlikely to be so dramatic, also Stripes was treated, and still died. Also hearts should have shrank with blood loss, not enlarged, so that's off. Likely systemic infection, but no ideas on how or why they both got it.

Only notable change right at symptom onset is that we ran out of Reptisafe, but I had a bottle of Fluker's declorinator so we started using that. Really hoping it's not that because that feels insane or conspiratory, either way I'm back to reptisafe.

only remaining reptile in the house is a box turtle. She had her stuff dismantled, bleached or tossed yesterday. She's not eating alot, she's got her appointment Friday as a just in case.

whole thing sucks more than I can express. ...maybe something'll be learned, we're at 4 plus vets on it now so....

[guidofatherof5]

Minnow wouldn't cause an immediate problem so I don't think they had anything to do with these deaths.

[Albert Clark]

Sorry to hear about stripes. Wow, lightning does strike twice contrary to popular belief huh? Good luck with the box turtle, hope it proves out healthy. When you are ready for a new pair of garters there are several breeders of healthy captive bred and born right here on the forum. We are all looking forward to your updates.

[Rushthezeppelin]

I'm wondering if they were exposed to some nasty chemical that possibly had a steroid like affect on them....just can't see what else could enlarge a heart other than that or a genetic defect.

[guidofatherof5]

I think this was a pathogen issue. Not sure which one but a deadly one.

[joeysgreen]

I'm sorry for your loss. Did you get a necropsy done on Stripes?

From an academic point of view it would be very interesting to see what would cause heart enlargement like that. I didn't look at the radiograph again, but are we certain it's not stomach enlargement? Crypto would do that, and cause the bloody diarrhea. If so, it's very contagious, and hard to kill in the environment. Bleach won't do, get a quaternary ammonium compound.

Hearts can be enlarged due to various cardiomyopathies but to see the same one in two snakes that close together is very odd. If it were a nematode like a heartworm that would be insane and very noteworthy. Pentastomids are typically associated with the lungs but can occur anywhere. They can be zoonotic and are not uncommon in wild caught garter snakes (I realize origin is likely CB).

Again, so sorry for your loss,

Ian

[cnphilips]

So there was a necropsy done for Stripes. Unfortunately I had had a really bad time with Blackie's death so I put her body in the freezer after a few days so I could just "move on". I still have her, but I don't think any tests work now.


Stripes' vet confirmed that there was a lot of blood in the intestines, no indications of parasites, some stress on the liver, and otherwise no interesting findings or, otherwise, inconclusive blood work. So he didn't note anything about stomach or heart. I guess there could have still been crypto, but not any worms. Also confirmed that Stripes was male.


In my opinion a bunch of sudden bleeding in two individuals from the digestive system at the same time looks a whole lot like poisoning. Something went in both of them and wrecked havoc. The necropsy didn't support parasite load that they had from the wild, and I think genetic defect wouldn't have beset both at the exact same time like that. So I'm looking at the days leading up to the incident for my culprit.

I'm now feeling the symptoms came from Vitamin E toxicity. The Flukers I switched to right before symptoms was this : Robot Check (http://www.amazon.com/Fluker-Labs-SFK42000-Reptile-Dechlorinator/dp/B0027J0WF0)


It has added vitamin E, which is fat soluble, but no indication of how much or any warnings. Vitamin E can build up in the body, rather than just "peeing" out extra. Too much Vitamin E will change the way blood works, preventing clotting, and high doses are linked to cardiac events in humans.


When they became ill I started daily, sometimes twice daily soaks in water treated with this stuff. I wasn't careful with the concentration, using a "drop" (.5 cc) in a small critter carrier, never imagining there could be an overdose risk in a water conditioner. It still didn't strike me to look at whether Vitamin E had a toxicity risk until well after everything happened. I guess I just assumed it was a "safe" water soluble vitamin like the Vitamin C crap the pet industry so often puts in guinea pig products.


There were likely compounding problems. But either way, putting a fat soluble vitamin in a water conditioner is stupid at worst, unnecessary at best. I haven't checked with the vet whether vitamin overdoses show in blood work, or talking to Flukers (though I will!) so I may have no cause for this conclusion as to why my snakes died. But the more I learn about the risks of overloading Vitamin E (even in humans!), the more angry I am that Flukers is just tossing around the stuff with no caution or warnings.


Last thought: one compounding issue seems to be that I was using any water conditioner at all. The vet said I didn't ever need one for snakes (?). So, learning process all around. I'm still using Reptisafe (carefully) with my box turtle.

[guidofatherof5]

I can't imagine these snakes taking in enough of the Vit. E from the water to cause such a problem and it leading to death. I would stop using the water conditioner. Setting a couple gallons of water out for 24 hours should remove any of the additives. Just my thoughts.

[Tommytradix]

after being frozen they wouldnt find anything. if you ever plan to get a necropsy done again refridgerate dont freeze

[joeysgreen]

I agree that this, and a lot of similar products are crap, and targeting naïve pet owners that just want the best for their animals. Your vitamin E theory is unlikely, but not without merit. The Fluker's website does not reveal how much Vitamin E is in the bottle. Not that this matters, because there is no regulatory body for such products and there could be zero to asinine proportions of vitamin in any given batch produced. Nonetheless, using a drop, or 1/2 cc (10 drops), whichever it is, in a liter or two of bath water is unlikely to cause toxicity. Vitamin E is indeed fat soluble and can cause toxicity because of it, but it is a compound essential to the body which means there are physiological methods for it's use and regulation. As per the blood panel, vitamin E levels can be tested, but are not on a routine blood panel.

A gross necropsy (sounds like what was done) can be done on a frozen/thawed carcass but in itself is rather unrevealing. It can see visual changes to organs, masses, larger parasites, foreign bodies etc. The freezing causes cellular lysis, which means that histopathology is fruitless. Freezing also reduces the chance of pathogen isolation, but not always. We often freeze cultures and plasma in case future testing is warranted.

And because it was mentioned, Guinea pigs are the only known animals in addition to primates (including us of course) that cannot produce their own vitamin C, making it an essential vitamin. Lacking it causes scurvy, an utterly painful demise. Vitamin C in the water... another one of those crap products. It should be offered in a variety of methods, most reliably via daily tablet form (Oxbow products), but also in supplemented pellets (an unessential dietary component), and in my opinion, ideally from fresh vegetables like bell peppers.

Ian

[d_virginiana]

I agree that vitamin E overdose probably wasn't the cause, but those vitamin products that aren't really necessary are generally crap... I wouldn't be surprised if there was some component that garters are more sensitive to than other reptiles. There are products that are perfectly fine for most other reptiles that can cause serious problems with garters (probably due to their smaller size and faster metabolisms).