Can't get my temperatures up

[Simland]

Hi,

The temperatures in my terrarium are a bit cool and I can't seem to be able to get them up.

The current temperatures
Cool side: around 20 C (sometimes even 1 or 2 degrees lower)
Warm side air: max around 25-26C, sometimes 27C, min night time : 20C
Warm side surface: 30-32 for the rock and 1-2 degrees less for the soil

Although I wasn't regularly monitoring the temperatures last winter, they seemed to be fine and my snake was behaving normally. This summer I switched the terrarium and the new one is the same size, but 2 inches taller.

I believe the heat bulb I had last year was a 75W bulb, but I replaced it with a 50W bulb at some point and I don't remember when that was...could have been during the winter.

My snake started acting strange during the summer (which I thought must be because of the heat even though it wasn't spending an overly large amount of time in its water bowl). It probably didn't have a cool side back then (the only cool place was probably the water bowl). Now the temperatures went from hot to too cool kind of quickly early in the fall.

I switched the 50W bulb for a 75W bulb, and waited to see if my snake's behavior would improve, but it didn't. Then I started monitoring the temperatures more seriously, with a different thermometer and with a temperature gun, which showed the temperatures were cooler than I thought. I believed that might be because of the new terrarium's extra 2 inches of height so, yesterday, I added more substrate to raise the warm side up by roughly 2 inches. I didn't really notice any change in the temperatures.

Today I bought a 100W bulb but after several a hours... nothing's changed. The air temperature is 25.5C at the moment and the surface temperature of the rock is 32C.

I'm thinking that the substrate (soil) I added is acting as enough of a heat sink to compensate for the increased closeness to the heat source and the increase in Watts, especially since it's still relatively moist so there's more evaporation going on than there was before the change, but still, I'm surprised that I haven't even gained 1 degree.

I'm starting to freak out. Should I wait for the soil to dry up a bit more and see what happens? Should I get the soil back down to the level it was before and see if the 100W will work its magic with less of a heat sink? I'm thinking the best thing to do would be to replace the substrate in the warm side, but with what? I really don't like newspaper and other "sheet" substrates or no substrate. Is there a solution I'm missing. I'd rather not use a rack for two reasons: I can't find a premade one and I'm convinced part of why my terrarium is escape proof is that while my snake can reach the top, it can't use its strength to push through.

I'd also rather find an "in-tank" solution, rather than running both a heat bad and and heat bulb, but if I can find a decent affordable pad that you don't stick to the glass, I might it on the of the terrarium...

I'm pretty sure that I'm seeing visual signs that my snake has started losing weight.

I don't know if this info is useful, but my heat bulbs are the visible light kind, not the infrared kind.

[guidofatherof5]

Can you post a photo of your snake and give us some history on it. Diet? Feeding schedule? Brumation? etc.

[Simland]

I'll try to take a new picture tomorrow, but here's the composite I used in another thread. It's the one on the left.
12828

Diet: Nightcrawlers. The schedule used to be every other day and I continue to offer him nightcrawlers every other day, but he only takes them once a week, now... sometimes less often if I remember correctly (without checking my notes)

I tried feeding him a guppy once, but it freaked out and faked attacks on my hand.

I supplement with calcium once a month, although I admit that I've been a bit flaky about that in the past...and now it's kind of difficult because if I forget the supplement, then it's at least another week before there's any sort of chance he'll take the food/supplement.

I never made it brumate.

I got it in september 2014 and it was pretty much the same length. It's a male, so it could be its final size, or just about, and, by extension, I don't really know its age.

It took a couple of months for it to shed, than it shed every two months and, now, if I remember correctly, it hasn't shed since last June or July.

Whenever he does eat, he has no problem with the food. He seems to be digesting it just fine, so I may start force feeding it a bit if nothing else works, but I'd rather fix the temperatures first.

[guidofatherof5]

If he's eating once a week I wouldn't worry too much and I don't suggest force feeding. Once a week is fine. Garters can cycle on eating. Could just be a seasonal change thing. Have you tried frozen/thawed pinkies or some tilapia?

Nice Thamnophis sirtalis parientalis - Red-sided garter snake

[joeysgreen]

A photo of your tank might be helpful as well. I don't like undertank heaters when you have substrate that insulates against it. If your snake were to burrow it'd find dangerous temp's down there.

You may find that the evaporative effects of the soil are indeed keeping the temp's moderated. It takes energy to raise water and then to evaporate it. A good method to show this is to have ice cubes in water, on a sunny window ledge. The water temperature will not begin to rise until all the ice has melted.

So, you don't want a dry substrate, but you want to raise the temperature. This is where you look for creating a microhabitat. A simple way to do this is to place a thin, flat piece of wood or slate on top of the substrate. Dig a hollow underneath for a nice humid hide. On top, the rock can warm up faster than the soil below. Additionally, you can add another rock or wood hide on top to get a dry hide, and another basking spot that is both independent of the substrate, and closer to the bulb for a warmer temperature available for your snake. Google rete's rack for more organized versions of this idea.

[Simland]

At first, that's what I thought it was: that it just would not feel like eating much for a short while, but I believe it's been too long for that to be the case. One of my other thoughts was: maybe it's pretty much fully grown so it's eating less (although the change was fairly sudden). But the weight loss suggests its something else. I haven't tried pinkies and tilapia. I'm thinking it would be hard to make it accept pinkies since I couldn't use tricks like senting with worm sent, but I might try the tilapia (do you just buy tilapia filets from the grocery store?)

Here are the pictures I was able to take yesterday of the snake and its terrarium:
1282912830

This is the current version of the terraium, with the thicker substrate to bring the surface closer to the light.

As you can see from the condensation, there's still a fair bit of evaporation going on and the temperature is, at least, a bit warmer than the room temperature (which is the same as last year [min:20C]).

I don't know if it makes a difference, but it's a thamnophis sirtalis (not the parientalis subspecies).

What kind of wood would you recommend? I have some nice split log pieces that I could put in, but I don't know what species they're from.

[Rushthezeppelin]

If you get tilapia (or other fish) make sure to look at the ingredients. The only ingredients it should have is tilapia (or w/e fish) and maybe water. Anything else should not be used...Also if using any sea fish I would not take anything caught in the N Pacific.

[joeysgreen]

tilapia fillet in itself is not a full meal; it's muscle meat. A treat or intermediate to get eating is about it.

Split logs should be fine, but might be a little bulky for what you are looking for... your judgement call. Type of wood doesn't matter much, just let it dry and air out a bit. Species like cedar and pine should be avoided, but moreso when freshly cut, or as bedding that is always freshened and/or kept moist with spilt water or waste. These soft woods have noxious aromatics that can be dangerous.

[Rushthezeppelin]

BTW, a heads up. If you are using only ecoearth for substrate that pothos probably won't last in there. Ecoearth does not have nutrients that are easily accessible by plants. It makes a great amendment to substrates that can grow plants to help them retain moisture but that's about it in that respect. The fern might fare a bit better if it's a type that can grow epiphytically but even it will enjoy a nutrient rich substrate as well.

[Albert Clark]

As far as the heat is concerned you should consider a ultra therm heat mat and regulate the temperature with a thermostat. You could always adjust the mounting and placement bc there is no adhesive on the ultra therms. They also are low wattage and more reptile friendly.

[Simland]

BTW, a heads up. If you are using only ecoearth for substrate that pothos probably won't last in there. [...] The fern might fare a bit better if it's a type that can grow epiphytically but even it will enjoy a nutrient rich substrate as well.

Thanks for the info. I was wondering about that because I think I read somewhere that it's possible to keep plants in the ecoearth-like substrate I use in some of my terrariums. In my snake's terrarium I only use soil. (The fern I have in there is the easiest kind of plant to take care of: the fake kind :-) but I'll keep your tip in mind if I ever want a live plant in a coconut fiber terrarium without enough substrate to hide a pot.)


I'm not sure I can get the Ultratherm heating pads easily here, but they seem like a good option.

As for the Rete's racks, the ones I've seen or read about seem to be made from different types of wood. Are there types that should be avoided? For instance, when it comes to branches and logs, softwoods should be avoided for many animals. Is it the case with commercial wood do or does it not matter because it's usually made from heartwood (which hasn't had any sap running through it for a while) (not sure that's actually true for commercial wood, but I heard it's true for sculptures and such) and it has gone through whatever process commercial wood goes through before getting to the shelves?

[joeysgreen]

I wouldn't worry so much about the type of wood. Use something that's not full of glue (like particle board), or weather treated (the green stuff for decks). I recently went to Lowe's to look for a retes rack for my leopard geckos. 60 cent bricks with some fence boards cut to fit for each layer. It doesn't have to be fancy.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Also doesn't have to be wood.....I've seen some leopard gecko guys to rete's with slate as well. It will just conduct heat a bit different than a wooden one.

[Simland]

Do you guys have any idea why my snake is sticking to the cool side of the gradient even though both sides are still a few degrees lower than they should be? Could it be because it thinks its time to brumate so it doesn't even try to warm itself on the other side? I'm worried the feeding/weight loss issue might not be entirely temperature related...

I guess a second question would be Should I focus on increasing the temperature on the cool side? I just remembered that I probably still have a second hand infrared bulb somewhere that may still be working and an extra heat lamp reflector. I'll remove the uvb light to make room for it and see if it helps.

I'm still on the fence with regard to the heat mats, but, say I go for one of those, is there a wattage that's safe (yet effective) until I get a thermostat, if I want to stagger the expenses?

[Rushthezeppelin]

Are there any other symptoms that you can tie into this? Does he seem actually lethargic at all or is he somewhat active on that side? Does he still show normal tongue flicking response? Is he staying hydrated?

[Simland]

Well, at first it was hard to tell if it was being lethargic (as opposed to just not active) because it spent a lot of time in its hide, but when it was outside of it, it was pretty active (usually looking for a way out, actually [something it had not done quite that often back when things were normal]). Whenever I would try to feed it, it would at least come look at the worm, flick its tongue at it, and then either ignore it or try to use it and my hand to climb out. (Still, though, I would say its overall activity level was less than before.)

Now that I have added the other bulb, which has raised the temperatures a bit (24C on the cool side and 27C on the warm side, during the day), it spent a lot of time out of hiding yesterday, so I've seen it looking very listless and when I tried to feed him during that time (in the afternoon, if I remember correctly) it didn't even flick its tongue at the worm. (It had eaten a worm that morning, though, and it seemed enthusiastic about that one). It wasn't listless all the time, though.

The weirdest thing is that even though the temperatures were only at 20C and 24C this morning, I found it under its water bowl (and I believe that's where it is now,too). I swear, that snake is doing its best to confuse me! I'll leave the temperatures as they are for a while and see what happens, but, if it stays under its water bowl all the time, I don't know how its going to get used to the higher temperatures.

I don't know for sure if its staying hydrated. I've never ever seen it drink, but it does make passes at its water (maybe less often, now [not sure since I'm not always in front of the terrarium]). I don't remember if garter snakes are the type that actually suck in water or the type that drink simply by being in the water and having water move up along folds in their mouths using capillary action.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Garters can actively drink through their mouths or by soaking their cloaca.