Cool yet snake stays on cool side...why?

[Simland]

Hi,

I've been having issues with this snake / terrarium for months. I can't seem to get it to the proper temperatures even though everything was fine last winter. I'll cover my attempts in another thread, but I'm also puzzled at my snake's behavior.

The species: Eastern Garter

The temperatures:
Cool side: around 20 C (sometimes even 1 or 2 degrees lower)
Warm side air: max around 25-26C, sometimes 27C, min night time : 20C
Warm side surface: 30-32 for the rock and 1-2 degrees less for the soil

I would expect my snake to spend all of it's time in the "warm" side to get what little warmth is available, but it never hangs out there anymore (that I know of). It's usually either hiding on the cool side or trying to escape. It only eats once a week or so while it ate every other day last winter. Back then it would take a third nightcrawler every time I offered one, but now it never ever eats more than 2. I don't keep track of its weight, but I'm convinced it has lost some.

What would cause a snake in a cool terrarium with a temperature gradient not to spend any time on the warm side (both sides have hides). The only differences are that the cool side has a fake plant and some real plants (that extend almost all the way to the warm side) and the warm side has a gravel patch to help with shedding. The water bowl is right in the middle.

Note: Last winter I wasn't monitoring the temperatures all that much, but my snake's behavior was normal.

[joeysgreen]

There are many reasons, as you mentioned, it can very much be as simple as not wanting to leave the only hide spot that it feels comfortable in. Being as this animal has been in your care for a long while, and has previously had normal behavior, this is unlikely. Since temperatures are questionable in comparison to last year, it could very much be that it has been triggered to want to brumate. If it is otherwise healthy, hasn't eaten for a 2 wks, then perhaps cycle it while you are troubleshooting your enclosure.

[Simland]

How do you cycle it? I'm assuming the basics are: provide a suitable hibernaculum and lower the temperatures. But I don't know how, for how long, etc.

[Simland]

It has lost a bit of weight.

[joeysgreen]

A bit as in how much? If in doubt, don't cycle it. By cycle it I mean offering it a natural seasonal cycle; aka brumating at this time of year. Google how to do it and come back with questions as it can be a big topic to cover. The short of it is a slow cooling, without feeding as we want that GI tract to empty so food doesn't ferment while the snake is to cold to digest it. The cold temp should be reached after several weeks, and should be around 55F for a lot of species (in the wild, gartersnakes in western Canada are less than 10 degrees above freezing. All the while, you continue to offer water, a dry but slightly humid enclosure, and greatly reduce or stop daylight hours. All changes should be gradual. Warm up is a reverse of cool down; can go for a month or two or longer, but monitor for signs of illness, weight loss, body condition etc. This isn't something I recommend for someone newer to reptiles, so use your judgement. Like I said, when in doubt, (about your skills or your animal's health status), don't cycle.

[Simland]

I don't think I'm confident enough to try making him brumate and I need it active during the winter.

I'm not sure exactly how much weight he has lost. (I'm not keeping track of his weight [although that's something I'll start doing now that I bought a scale specifically to weigh my animals]). It's probably not that much, but it's body feels a bit different when I hold it. I can also see some differences, sometimes, when it folds around objects (including differences in shape and some loose-seeming skin [these differences are subtle, but...]).

[Rushthezeppelin]

You haven't seen any straight up vertical folding at point where he bends have you?

[Simland]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, so, possibly yes. I've seen the skin/scales fold/poke up at certain points, but so far, I don't think I've seen that happen from just regular bending (e.g. bending around my arm).

[Rushthezeppelin]

Just trying to see if there any signs of a stuck shed. Here is more or less an example of what I'm talking about with vertical folding:

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt173/TiffOwnz/shed003.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like normal folds in the skin to me.

[Rushthezeppelin]

I can't seem to find a good example of a colubrid folding when stuck shed then sorry ><

[Simland]

Here is more or less an example of what I'm talking about with vertical folding:



Ah,ok. No, that hasn't happened yet.

The second bulb has improved the temperatures a bit, now they sit at 24C on the cool side and 27C on the warm side, during the day. It might be too soon to tell if the feeding problem is over, but I have my fingers crossed that it's at least going to help. It ate a worm yesterday. It could have been because the day before it only ate one instead of the expected 2 (after approx. a week) but it seemed somewhat more enthusiastic about it than has been the norm recently.

The weird thing, though, is that this morning, I found it under its waterbowl. The air temps were at 20C on the cool side and 24C on the warm side. Too cool for it to need to cool itself under the waterbowl. It has never done that, as far as I know, not even during the summer (although, granted, back then the substrate was thinner).

Could it be trying to stay cool because its trying to prepare to brumate (i.e., might he get back to normal after a while at these temps [or at higher temps] or is it a sign of something more sinister). Is there a disease that tricks snakes into trying to stay cool?

[joeysgreen]

I've only semi followed this thread. In response to why it remains on the cool side; it can be multifactorial but I"ve touched on that in a previous post and the common reasons are less likely because the animal is already accustomed to the enclosure.
Simple illness or pain can be limiting it's movement for thermoregulation.
It could very well be preparing to brumate, in which it is something you just manage by monitoring health and weight. If health appears to be declining, then it might have to be "forced" in to it's POTZ in a hospitalization enclosure. This is something that should be discussed with your veterinarian as you'll also have to be addressing the primary illness.
There is no disease that I am aware of that tricks snakes in to trying to stay cool outside of being to ill to seek warmer areas.

[Simland]

I like the hospitalization enclosure idea. I'll see what happens with the current temperatures in its terrarium. If it seems to help I'll just buy a heat pad to bring them all the way up. But, if things keep going the way they are I'll repurpose one of my 10 gallons and make a gradient that stays pretty close to the POTZ and see what happens. Should I increase the temps slowly? It already has access to a spot that's at 27C in the afternoon.

By the way, what would you guys say is the POTZ? I've read sources that pin it at completely different temperatures (e.g. 80-82F and 84-86F). My guess is that it depends on species, subspecies, population, etc., but what would you say is the average POTZ for Eastern garters?

[joeysgreen]

In all honesty, and especially since this isn't an exact, controlled environment, if you set it at 85F you should be fine. Use google scholar appropriately to see if POTZ has been determined in any Thamnophis species. I caution against taking away a thermogradient, as that is your cushion, allowing the snake to find what it needs. It needs to be done carefully, and more investigation in to health status needs to occur.

[Simland]

It looks like his eating habits are almost back to normalcy. For the past week, he's been eating almost as much as before and pretty much as often as before. He's just less of a glutton and a bit less regular.

Thanks for all the help.

[guidofatherof5]

Any eating is always a good. Glad things are looking better.