Anyone ever tried Reptilinks?

[Rushthezeppelin]

Reptilinks whole-prey (http://www.reptilinks.com/#about) Just stumbled upon this today. Seems like the smallest version with rabbit meat would be great for a decent sized juvie garter and of course can go bigger for larger adults. Anyone ever used these before?

[guidofatherof5]

Too expensive for me when I checked.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Wow they even have micro and mini sizes....micro is smaller than a pink mini is about the size of a pink.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Too expensive for me when I checked.

Cheaper than local pinks for me. They are anywhere from 50c a pop at the exotic shop to a bit over a buck at petsmart.....these are about 40c a pop for the micros. I'm sure it's cheaper with bulk orders too.

[Eddie]

Who makes them?

[Rushthezeppelin]

The company is just called reptilinks. They seem to have a pretty big following among other reptile keepers like Savannahs especially. Its basically just links of venison, chicken or rabbit ground up bones and organs and all and wrapped in a collagen tube. They also have ones with fruits and veggies added for omnivores.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Seems they source all their meat from pasture grazed animals too.

[Eddie]

Reminds me of garter grub. Does anyone remember that product?

[Rushthezeppelin]

I emailed them last night about if they had any garter testimonials. Answer is none specifically, although he doesn't see why scenting wouldn't work if it works for pinks. I also asked about the possibility of making some with fish mixed in and got an even better answer than I expected. They are currently working on.......drum roll......FROG reptilinks :D I'm sure alot of garters will go absolutely ape %&$ over those :D

[Qwerty3159]

I emailed them last night about if they had any garter testimonials. Answer is none specifically, although he doesn't see why scenting wouldn't work if it works for pinks. I also asked about the possibility of making some with fish mixed in and got an even better answer than I expected. They are currently working on.......drum roll......FROG reptilinks :D I'm sure alot of garters will go absolutely ape %&$ over those :D
All they need now is to make lizard reptilinks and they'll have a gold mine.

[Rushthezeppelin]

All they need now is to make lizard reptilinks and they'll have a gold mine.

Ya corn snake owners would go bonkers if they make lizard links ^_^ BTW the frogs will be CB.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Reminds me of garter grub. Does anyone remember that product?

I do Lol

[joeysgreen]

One thing to note is that raw products like this can be a real risk for food poisoning. It'd be safer to feed frozen/thawed whole-body prey. It's a good idea, but I just don't personally see much of a benefit.

[Qwerty3159]

One thing to note is that raw products like this can be a real risk for food poisoning. It'd be safer to feed frozen/thawed whole-body prey. It's a good idea, but I just don't personally see much of a benefit.
Taken from the website: :P
"All links are tightly vacuum sealed, shipped frozen, and guaranteed to arrive below 40 F. The links can be safely refrozen and thawed as needed with a frozen shelf life of 3 months, and 1 year for products that don’t contain fruits and vegetables. The links can also be refrigerated for more immediate feeding with a refrigerated shelf life of one week. The links contain no preservatives. "

[joeysgreen]

Yes, but as with all raw food, the processing plant is a very real contamination hazard. They could very well be vacuum sealing your repti-link full of Clostridium, E-coli...ect as happens with human grade food all the time; except we cook our food prior to consumption, killing said microorganisms. Freezing stops reproduction, and likely reduces overall numbers, but does not eliminate the risk. To relate, I often store my culture swabs in the freezer, to thaw later and then grow for identification and sensitivity testing.

[Albert Clark]

Thanks Rush and Joeys, I have heard of them b4 but only recently was considering them for my collection. I have to reduce the numbers of conventional feeders I already have. Lol.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Yes, but as with all raw food, the processing plant is a very real contamination hazard. They could very well be vacuum sealing your repti-link full of Clostridium, E-coli...ect as happens with human grade food all the time; except we cook our food prior to consumption, killing said microorganisms. Freezing stops reproduction, and likely reduces overall numbers, but does not eliminate the risk. To relate, I often store my culture swabs in the freezer, to thaw later and then grow for identification and sensitivity testing.

Just curious but how would this be any different than using frozen fish or other frozen food besides something that is frozen alive and whole like pinks? What parameters or 3rd party certification would you look for to try and ensure safety of the food that would make you feel comfortable with these guys?

[joeysgreen]

I don't think anything should be frozen alive, it's been confirmed inhumane and is not supported by the AVMA, CALAS, or other regulator bodies on euthanasia.
However there is risk with any food; if it's freshly killed, then you're more worried about parasites, so make sure you know where your feeders come from. If you use frozen feeders, you want to be certain that they have been frozen immediately after euthanasia, and are used immediately after thawing. This offers the least amount of nutritional breakdown, and the least amount of time for bacterial overgrowth.

When whole prey are cut and ground up, the bacteria that is on the outside of the skin is carried into the rest of the tissue, the perfect medium for growth. Further, the time it takes to process this food allows for both bacterial growth and degradation by natural decomposition. Additionally, the equipment used for this processing is a giant vector for disease as it is difficult to keep clean, and sterility is an illusion. As alluded to earlier, this has been a problem in the human meat market, google Maple Leaf Foods Listeria outbreak for a somewhat recent example. I don't blame anyone for such things, because it's the nature of the products we consume. Again, we either buy it precooked, or cook it ourselves so the risks are minimal. This just isn't so with pet foods. Do you know how many vomiting and diarrhea cases vets are seeing nowadays with the raw-pet-food craze? Dogs are going to usurp reptiles in the salmonella scare if this trend continues (maybe that's a good thing, I guess it depends on where you stand).

As for what certification I'd look for, well, that's just not going to happen. If no one oversees nutraceuticals, vitamins, probiotics ect. what makes me think they'll oversee garter sausages? lol, don't get me wrong, I'm not dead set against the idea, but just want people to be informed as to what they are getting in to.

Ian

[AntTheDestroyer]

If freezing is in humane what is the best way to kill pinky mice? It is nearly impossible to asphyxiate them as they are designed to go with out air for a long time. I tried spinal dislocation once and it was incredibly hard and absolutely torture for the animal. I will never do that again, and still feel bad about it.

Snakes have evolved to eat some pretty rancid food in the wild. The real issue is not if the bacteria exists but if it is even harmful to the snake. I have not come across a single story of a pet snake getting food poisoning. Have you? Also any bacteria picked up during processing would definitely be killed by freezing.

[joeysgreen]

The best way that I have found for killing pinky mice is blunt force trauma. It is inconvenient, but I throw them one at a time, head first at the cement floor. For them, it's like getting hit by a truck, lights out immediately. Then I freeze them as a means of secondary euth. to ensure they don't ever wake up. This method replicates the "whacking" method used on larger adults but is unable to be done on such small, tail-less animals.

As per bacteria, no, freezing does not kill all bacteria. It can actually preserve it.

Bacteria, and pathogens of any type for that matter, create disease for two reasons.
1. Virulence. This is how much of the pathogen is necessary to cause disease. A highly virulent bacteria would only need small amounts to seed a culture, grow and cause problems.
2. Exposure. Even bland, every day bacteria like Staphylococcus can cause disease if the host is overwhelmed by it.

Where virulence and exposure intersect, you get disease.

Snakes have been documented eating roadkill. They have a pretty good stomach for grossness. But that's not a reason to ignore reasonable discussion on feeding practices. As per stories about food poisoning, we report diarrhea in reptiles all the time. We report regurgitation. Even on this website there is plenty of evidence that certain items can make your snake sick. We blame it on "mystery toxins" but the fact is it certainly could be a simple case of food poisoning. It's hard enough to convince people to get diagnostics done on a sick gartersnake, let alone additional ones to link it to the food they were given. If a human gets salmonellosis, it's "food poisoning". If a snake gets the same, it's because "they're carriers" - not so simple, see 1. and 2. again.

Again, I'm not trying to be super pessimistic about this product. I am just trying to offer an informative discussion.

Ian

[AntTheDestroyer]

Your telling me violently throwing a mouse to the ground crushing its internals is more humane then freezing? I think most people would disagree. Second you are basing all of this on the fact that you are comparing a snake's ability to handle foreign gut pathogens to that of humans. This is completely unrealistic from both an ecological and evolutionary point of view. Not to mention without actual proof you can not say that this product has any more or less parasite load than any other frozen thawed food source. Finally that is not the definition of virulence, it nothing to do with the amount bacteria but the severity of the disease it causes.

[joeysgreen]

On mouse euthanasia, yes. It is a smaller form of a recognized form of euthanasia; and I have observed it's effectiveness and am trained to rate both levels of pain and consciousness in animals. Freezing has been long recognized as a very painful method of death as the cells crystalize prior to the loss of consciousness. As someone who has been frostbitten more times than I can count, I can vouch for how painful this can be.

I don't think I've compared human and snake floral gut tolerances. What I have done is to use examples of human food processing as an example people may relate to what happens with food as it is turned from ingredient to end product. Regardless of snakes being able tolerate more, disease still happens at the intersection of virulence and exposure as described in an earlier post.

I never said this product had parasites.


Virulence is not defined by the severity of the disease. Many influenza strains are highly virulent but cause nothing more than a runny nose and a cough. Virulence is a description of how capable a pathogen is at causing disease. If virulence is low, then a lot of pathogen is needed. If high, then perhaps only a single organism.


Ant, if you're taking offense to any of this, then go use the product. No one is stopping you, and I'm sure your snakes will be fine.


Ian

[AntTheDestroyer]

I am certainly not offended in fact I agree that mice are a better food source for my snakes. I just think the information you are attempting to pass on is flawed. Bacteria are parasites, which is why you study them in Parasitology.You are completely wrong about virulence. This should clear it up.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virulence
I mean just think about from a purely common sense side. Bacteria come in all shapes and sizes, and affect the host in varying degrees based on many different factors. If virulence was based on number of bacteria it would be an arbitrary term with little meaning.
Lastly you are saying things about the product that you would need scientific proof to support, and frankly it does not exist.

[joeysgreen]

lol, I don't get how we're not on the same page as it comes to virulence. Yes, I am trying to say that virulence is the degree of pathogenicity. Virulence does not equal disease. Where the amount of pathogen comes in to play is it's inverse relation to virulence in the formation of disease. As virulence goes up, the amount of pathogen needed to cause disease goes down.

I guess in the purest form of the word, bacteria could be parasites, however they generally are not discussed as such; just like viruses are not considered parasites, even though they have a host relationship. I guess we've taken different parasitology courses.

The only thing I am saying about the product is that there is increased likelihood of bacterial overgrowth in processed foods. I just saw another hamburger recall today in the news. I don't see how this is not an evidence based discussion.

[Rushthezeppelin]

And honestly one of the biggest reasons we are so susceptible to these pathogens is the fact that we have utterly annihilated our gut bacteria in at least the US. 80% of our immune system is in our gut and a very large part of that isn't even composed of our own cells. It would be interesting to see studies on the gut bacteria of captive vs wild herps (and hell maybe some studies on if their gut bacteria are as important to them as they are to us). Also studies of those on bioactive setups vs standard sterilized setups. I have a hunch that those kept on bioactive setups are able to get more good gut bacteria, but really it's just a hunch till the studies are done. Sadly there's probably very little interest in these specific topics at local university herpetology departments. I might just take it upon myself to try and contact the head of that department at University of Texas. Perhaps I can spark some interest, who knows.

[joeysgreen]

That is a very good additional point Rush. I'll bring it back to the dog example I used earlier in the thread; Dogs that are fed kibble their entire lives, no matter how great nutritionally that food is, are more susceptible to pancreatitis after a fatty meal (stealing table scraps or finding roadkill), and more likely to get GI upset if they eat spoiled food (roadkill, garbage). Now I'm not saying to feed road kill and garbage, just pointing out that a finely tuned GI system isn't as accommodating to dietary extremes. I don't think this is documented in reptiles, but is that because it doesn't happen or because of the lack of documentation in reptiles?

[Rushthezeppelin]

That is a very good additional point Rush. I'll bring it back to the dog example I used earlier in the thread; Dogs that are fed kibble their entire lives, no matter how great nutritionally that food is, are more susceptible to pancreatitis after a fatty meal (stealing table scraps or finding roadkill), and more likely to get GI upset if they eat spoiled food (roadkill, garbage). Now I'm not saying to feed road kill and garbage, just pointing out that a finely tuned GI system isn't as accommodating to dietary extremes. I don't think this is documented in reptiles, but is that because it doesn't happen or because of the lack of documentation in reptiles?

Really tough to say. Perhaps though the fact that some of the largest species of snakes can eat meals that are enormous and take sometimes half a year or more to digest is telling who knows. I'm sure small oxen are rotten in a couple of weeks in a wild retics belly lol..but they do fine (well as long as nothing spooks them into regurging lol). Of course does that mean captive retics can do the same? Can that be extrapolated to all snakes? Then you also have the case of blood pythons that while eating smaller meals will sometimes take half a year to take a huge dump....and most of that half year they are sitting in a stagnant ammonia/nitrate/piss filled pool......Who knows.

[joeysgreen]

and most of that half year they are sitting in a stagnant ammonia/nitrate/piss filled pool......Who knows. This last part can be cleared up. Ammonia and nitrates are just part of the protein metabolism which in reptiles, the end product is uric acid. They do this because it is much less toxic than ammonia. There is a theory that the root of this trait is due to animals in hard shelled eggs needing a means to store embryonic waste until hatching without killing the embryo. In groups of amniotes that have evolved past the hard shelled egg (ex. most mammals) there is no need to waste the energy in metabolizing past the ammonia stage.

[Rushthezeppelin]

How interesting....So reptiles don't produce any ammonia?......I wonder how this relates to my idea of making a riparium sump for a garter water feature. Can uric acid be broken down by the usually nitrifying bacteria in water into nitrates for my plants to use? Also are plants as capable of uptaking uric acid quickly into their roots as say some are with ammonia/ammonium?

[joeysgreen]

I don't have the whole chain of protein metabolism memorized, but ammonia is produced, but rather than stopping there the snake continues to convert it into the safer uric acid. Many reptiles, like aquatic turtles, don't bother with this step because their aquatic lifestyle allows for easy release of nitrogenous waste, all the while not having to worry about conserving water.

I'd guess that it can be converted and utilized by the plants somehow but don't know for certain. I usually spot clean my enclosures, allowing composting of the bits that I miss.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for this link Steve Schmidt

https://www.boundless.com/biology/textbooks/boundless-biology-textbook/osmotic-regulation-and-the-excretory-system-41/nitrogenous-wastes-231/nitrogenous-waste-in-birds-and-reptiles-uric-acid-866-12113/

[joeysgreen]

Thanks Steve, that is a good rundown.