Urgent Force Feeding Help

[Simland]

Hi,

How far down is the stomach on a garter snake? I'm force feeding mine and, while she's not vomiting it, she's not pushing it down either. I massaged it gently down her body, but I don't want to push it too far.

She's very weak, so I don't even know if she has the strength to push it down. I've had problems feeding her for a while, now, but I successfully fed her a few fishes this week and last week (without force feeding....this is my first time trying that). I knew things were bad, but I didn't know they were that bad. She did have a temp gradient, but she stopped using the area with the proper basking heat (though, granted, it was a the low end of the range) a couple of days ago. It's rather small though.

When I came home today she was moving around her cage more, so I was hoping she was doing better, but, in my experience, renewed energy is often a sign that death is very close.

I knew she had lost weight but I didn't know how bad things were because I try not to handle my animals when they are sick, as much as possible. But when I noticed that her renewed energy was gone and she seemed even weaker than before, I picked her up, and she is not just thin, she is alarmingly thin. She feels like there isn't much more than skin and bones on her. Given that she's a cold blooded animal that much weight loss seems astounding to me. She'd been refusing food for a while, but not THAT long.

Any help would be appreciated. I don't think she'll survive long if I don't get something in her stomach...maybe not even then.

[Simland]

I've force fed her a fish. I would have liked to force feed her some liquid food, but I don't knoe what liquid food can be fed to a garter snake and I don't have the tools (syringe and tube).

[Simland]

Now she looks like she's trying to regurgitate the fish, but isn't strong enough. The spasm, moving forward from the tail, stop at the fish.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Gosh, I'm not sure what is best to do in that situation :( I'd keep her in a warm humid rubbermaid tub or something.....that way you can at least ensure she is hydrated. Try and get it to 85-90 if at all possible. In the future if you have no choice but to force feed, I'd try pureed worms and pink parts in a syringe but that's just my guess, never had experience with this. Hopefully she get the fish the rest of the way down and can pull through : /

[Rushthezeppelin]

Put PTs with drinking water that's 85-90 would be best iin the rubermaid.

[Simland]

I believe she has passed away.

She was getting partial nourishment from the worms she was partially digesting up until mid September and I'd managed to feed her several guppies over the past week and a half, so I'm not entirely sure what happened.

I hope I remember to handle animals with eating issues more often, in the future, instead of the other way around... and to force feed sooner. She did not look half as bad as she did today when I started successfully feeding her guppies and I would have thought getting something in her would improve her condition... but the guppies might have been too small and the force feeding, too late.

How am I supposed to do the work I was supposed to do this evening, after this...

[d_virginiana]

I'm sorry for your loss.

That being said, force-feeding a snake is almost never the answer. Assuming husbandry is correct, they aren't eating because something is wrong, and forcing food into their system won't fix the problem (imagine trying to eat if you had the stomach flu, or if your kidneys were malfunctioning and you couldn't filter out proteins properly; it wouldn't help). It sounds like you could have been dealing with either a parasite problem or some sort of internal organ failure if she's been regurging and only partially digesting food for that long.
In the future, the best thing to do when you notice an eating problem like more than one regurge or partially digesting food and serious weight loss is to get a fecal sample to test for parasites. That's easy to test for and treat usually. Or if they're showing signs of bacterial infection, the vet may want to prescribe an antibiotic. If it's a problem with one of their organ systems, there's usually nothing that can be done.

Mainly, refusing food is a symptom not the source of the problem, so force-feeding without correcting the underlying issues usually won't help. I'm not trying to criticize you because it's kind of counterintuitive, just putting that out there in case you run into something similar in the future.

[Simland]

I completely agree with you Lora. Force feeding was a last ditch attempt to try to keep her alive. Whatever the root cause of the problem was, I believe she died because she was just too weak (a word of warning to others who are new at this, they can look "thicker" than they really are). I think there might have been multiple causes, for instance, maybe it started out as a UVB problem (I think I read somewhere that lack of it can affect feeding, but I'm not sure) and the resulting stress might have weakened her immune system and allowed a parasite or a disease to take over, which would explain the rather quick weight loss (for an ectotherm).

Hopefully my larger one isn't suffering from the same thing. It seems to be keeping it's weight up, but it's not using its basking area anymore (as far as I can tell). I'll double check the temperatures as soon as I get a temp gun (I think its thermometer might have lost its accuracy), and I'll be adjusting the humidity, too.

By the way, does any one know if keeping the entire foam pads on the Extoterra temperature gauges changes their accuracy? I rarely stick them to the glass (so I can move them around) and I leave the foam on so the the thermometer doesn't get damaged, covered in substrate, etc.

I think getting a poop sample analyzed will move up to "do it even though you have other solutions to try" in my "list" (assuming I can find a reptile vet in my area) because, when you think about it, with eating problems, it kind of has to be done when you get the opportunity to get a sample, and you never when the next one will come.

[Rushthezeppelin]

While it certainly doesn't hurt to give our snakes UVB it doesn't seem to be all that beneficial to them. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say lack of UVB drastically impacted a garter enough to waste away. I would be looking for other culprits.

[d_virginiana]

Garters don't need UVB, so that's not your problem.

Are you talking about those little round thermometers that are like dials? Those are like, up to ten degrees off on a good day (you may be talking about something else, but that's just what my mind went to)

[Rushthezeppelin]

Garters don't need UVB, so that's not your problem.

Are you talking about those little round thermometers that are like dials? Those are like, up to ten degrees off on a good day (you may be talking about something else, but that's just what my mind went to)

They are. I have two of em in one viv that are more or less for show, one is like 4 degrees off the other and one is about a degree off of actual. I use my flir camera for getting temp readings. Another flaw with those is you can't have it sitting in the middle of your basking spot. At least with the digital ones with the probe on a wire you can have it setup in the basking area much more easily. Even then I'd still trust a temp gun over anything and just find out how much a digital is off by and use that for daily checks but still check weekly with a temp gun.

[Simland]

I'd heard the jury was still out on the UVB thing. Maybe I'll try not using a UVB bulb with the next one, while I keep one on the cage of my current (still alive) snake. I want to test the temperatures in the terrarium of the one that died, though, before I get another one.

I think we're talking about the same gauges. The ones that you have to look at directly from the front to get the right reading and that have the thermometer placed in a very illogical spot to take the reading in the first place...

I'm hesitating between an actual temperature "gun" like the Etekcity (ETC 8750) Temperature Gun (Etekcity Lasergrip 800 Non-contact Digital Laser IR Infrared Thermometer Temperature Gun, Yellow/Black (http://www.etekcity.com/goodslist/product/100040.html)) and this other kind of laser gauge: Equus Laser Temperature Gauge (Equus Laser Temperature Gauge | Canadian Tire (http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/equus-laser-temperature-gauge-0251043p.html#.Vhz74CtaaA8)). Do you guys have any advice?

The Equus one seems much smaller, which would be handy for my terrariums with the smaller doors. However, I tend to be wary of technological devices that are smaller yet are also cheaper....but is the difference worth the trouble that would be cause by the larger "gun"? If I have to remove the entire lid, I might en up not taking the temperature as often...

[joeysgreen]

On UVB lighting; while not proven beneficial in garter snakes, if you are already offering it, I would continue. Our goal in captivity is to recreate the natural habitat as best as we can, sans predators and disease. Corn snakes have been shown to have higher blood vitamin D levels with access to UVB lighting, while ball pythons have been shown to not have increased vitamin D levels. Both species do well and breed readily in captivity without additional lighting, but I think this is information that should have us asking if we are doing the best that we can for our animals. With the diurnal nature of garter snakes, I would suspect that there is some value to offering UVB lighting.

As per temperature guns, when deciding upon various models, you must have an idea about how they work. If you look at the labels, they should have a ratio on them, like 1.4, or 1.200 etc. It's been a while since I've looked into it, but this ratio describes the discrepancy in the reading compared to the distance of the laser (related to the dispersion of said laser). Thus, for most temperature guns to be accurate, you pretty much have to place it within a few inches of the surface. If you are reading it without opening the cage up, you're probably not getting accurate or consistent results.
Another point to mention on temperature guns is that they read surface temperature, not air temperature. Without understanding this difference, you may not have the information you need to correctly troubleshoot a husbandry problem. I like to have both types of thermometers at my disposal.

Ian

[Simland]

Yeah, the ratios I've seen are all 12:1 and 8:1, so even at 12:1, it'd have to be less than 12 inches away to get the reading for a spot less than one inch in diameter.

I'm still wondering at the overall quality of the cheaper and smaller Equus one, though. I'll start with a visit at my local Canadian Tire, to at least have a look.

I'd keep the cheap Exo Terra gauges, but a laser gauge would give me a better idea of the temperature in spots where it's hard to measure....as well as an idea of the accuracy of the Exo Terra gauges (air temperature 30C while the basking rock is 20C, I don't think so!)

[Rushthezeppelin]

On UVB lighting; while not proven beneficial in garter snakes, if you are already offering it, I would continue. Our goal in captivity is to recreate the natural habitat as best as we can, sans predators and disease. Corn snakes have been shown to have higher blood vitamin D levels with access to UVB lighting, while ball pythons have been shown to not have increased vitamin D levels. Both species do well and breed readily in captivity without additional lighting, but I think this is information that should have us asking if we are doing the best that we can for our animals. With the diurnal nature of garter snakes, I would suspect that there is some value to offering UVB lighting.

As per temperature guns, when deciding upon various models, you must have an idea about how they work. If you look at the labels, they should have a ratio on them, like 1.4, or 1.200 etc. It's been a while since I've looked into it, but this ratio describes the discrepancy in the reading compared to the distance of the laser (related to the dispersion of said laser). Thus, for most temperature guns to be accurate, you pretty much have to place it within a few inches of the surface. If you are reading it without opening the cage up, you're probably not getting accurate or consistent results.
Another point to mention on temperature guns is that they read surface temperature, not air temperature. Without understanding this difference, you may not have the information you need to correctly troubleshoot a husbandry problem. I like to have both types of thermometers at my disposal.

Ian

You just hit upon something I've wondered about for a while. What is the important temp to consider when setting up a basking spot? Is it surface temp, air temp, a combo of both? I kinda think it's a combo of both, like say if your surface temp is low then the garter could bask in a warmer then 90 area but probably best to try and have both balanced. It would make sense considering many parts of garters ranges get well over the upper safe limit of 90*, granted temps are probably lower in the shady riparian areas many garters frequent. Am I on the right track here? Only reason it even came up was because I was trying to create a basking spot with a white limestone rock and it was a bugger to get heated up while I know the air temp above it was way higher. I carefully monitored one of my snakes on it with my flir camera (that can do pinpoint temps) and she left the basking spot as soon as she hit 75. Only time I messed with it, so obviously anecdotal at best.

[Simland]

My guess is that it's both. The best situation is probably when they're both in the proper range, because your snake's body will "interact" with both. Cool air will cool the snake and so will a cool spot. In most cases, when it's probably fairly similar after a while with the heat lamp on.

Short of taking our snakes' temperature, I don't think we can get an absolutely accurate picture of the temperatures affecting them. We'd have to look at all three of the following factors:
-Surface temperature
-Air temperature
-Direct heating by the electromagnetic radiation of the lamp (if you're using a lamp)

If I remember correctly objects will draw/give off more heat than air at the same temperature because they are denser. But, I may be wrong. And it would also depend on the material.

I think if a heat gun says your basking spot is within the proper range and your air temp gauge (trustworthy or not) is in (or close to) the proper range, you're probably ok and you can use the heat gun to see if problematic spots are in the proper range.

I think this is what I'll do: keep the gauges I have for the air temp in the basking areas, use a heat gun to check the surface temperature of my basking areas and cool sides, keep track of behavior, and buy a digital thermometer (or anything else better than the cheap gauges I have) if I ever think the air temp somewhere might be problematic.

[Simland]

As you guessed, in nature, even when it's well above 90, they can find cool spots (e.g. burrows, shade, moist areas, etc.) even take a bath in pretty cool water. Micro habitats can have significantly lower temperatures than the surrounding habitat. Some desert living cicadas are actually active in full midday heat (when predators aren't) but they make sure to be in tiny micro habitat where the temperature is tolerable.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Short of taking our snakes' temperature, I don't think we can get an absolutely accurate picture of the temperatures affecting them. We'd have to look at all three of the following factors:


Actually my flir camera gives me a very accurate picture of how temps are affecting them :D I almost want to experiment with how this all interacts. What do you guys think, would it be safe to do experimentation with this as long as I'm constantly observing snake temps to make sure the one of them doesn't get boneheaded and sit in it too long?

Also I left that heat lamp on the test spot all day....the rock is acting as a heatsink and just spreading the heat it receives and balancing back out close to ambients.

[d_virginiana]

If you're home all day and can constantly check on them I think that would be safe. The main things to keep it safe I think would be to make sure nothing gets into a dangerous range, even if the snake isn't sitting there at the moment and to make sure the heating sources are as 'natural' as possible-- so heat coming from above, not a heat pad from below or anything like that.

What's a flir camera? I feel like I should know what that means, but I don't.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Thermal imaging camera. It picks up far IR (aka radiant heat) so I can actually watch my snake warm up. I would be doing this experiment in a separate enclosure and only under supervision. Wonder what I need to do to make this a true double blind study though.

Edit: going to stop hijacking and make a new thread...

[Simland]

Yes, that's true, using an infrared camera would be kind of like taking your snakes temperature...at least, its surface temperature (and I'm guessing ectotherms have roughly similar internal and surface temperatures after being in a given place for a while). Do you get an actual temperature reading with it, or a bracket (e.g. this shade of red means 10-15C)?

It's an expensive way to take keep track of temperatures, though. A bit out of my reach at the moment.

[Simland]

I'd never heard of a rock acting as such a good heat sink. They're usually pretty good at remitting electromagnetic energy as heat even after the sun has gone down. I guess its bad luck to have picked a heat sink rock for a basking spot, but it could lead to a neat little experiment.

I think if you monitor the snake constantly, there shouldn't be any problems, but that depends on what, exactly you're going to do. 'will go read your other thread.

[joeysgreen]

Rocks are massive heat sinks. It takes a LOT of energy to warm up something with that mass just a few degrees.

Another thing to consider, and this may affect how your temp guns, FLIR camera, or anything that measures surface temperature, is a substances ability to conduct heat. Take a steel plate, granite rock, cement slab, and piece of wood. Heat them in the sun to 100F on a hot summer day. Touch them and which feels hotter? They are all 100F. I would be curious if these different thermometers would all read them as the same temperature, or if conduction plays a role as well. I honestly don't know how a laser reads surface temperature (or for that matter, if the air temperature that the laser passes through affects the reading).

For practicality, acknowledging that garter snakes experience temperature ranges much more extensive than what our care sheets suggest, we may consider incorporating that into our husbandry, in larger than minimal standard housing. For my animals, I routinely offer temperatures up to 100F because while their POTZ is much lower, they certainly have access to this in the wild. Because I also offer a dynamic environment of dimensions that offers everything they need at temperatures throughout their thermal gradient, I can be confident that offering such hot temperatures only adds to their habitat, and doesn't detract from it.

Ian

[BUSHSNAKE]

I have found garters in 63 degree weather and rarely but sometimes even in cooler temps. But temps over 85...rarely...temps over 90...never.

[joeysgreen]

I remember walking along a trail in southern BC and the garter snakes would be present so long as the sun was out. A tiny cloud could cause a 10 minute shadow and they'd disappear only to be out again as soon as the sun was back. It was gartersnake heaven, the most snakes I've seen outside of a hibernaculum.

[Simland]

Rocks are massive heat sinks. It takes a LOT of energy to warm up something with that mass just a few degrees.

I disagree at least partly with that sentence. You may be right in an absolute sense (i.e. maybe they disperse heat from other objects). However, compared to other materials (soil, wood, etc.) they radiate a lot more of the electromagnetic radiation back out as heat. If you're standing on a huge rock slab on a sunny day, you'll be much warmer than if you're standing on soil, wood, grass, etc. Of course, the degree to which they do that depends on a few factors, including color and, probably, rock type.

[Simland]

I would be curious if these different thermometers would all read them as the same temperature, or if conduction plays a role as well. I honestly don't know how a laser reads surface temperature (or for that matter, if the air temperature that the laser passes through affects the reading).

I was wondering the same thing: how do these thermometers handle difference in specific heat (the difference in the number of Joules it takes to heat a molecule by one degree).

[Rushthezeppelin]

I disagree at least partly with that sentence. You may be right in an absolute sense (i.e. maybe they disperse heat from other objects). However, compared to other materials (soil, wood, etc.) they radiate a lot more of the electromagnetic radiation back out as heat. If you're standing on a huge rock slab on a sunny day, you'll be much warmer than if you're standing on soil, wood, grass, etc. Of course, the degree to which they do that depends on a few factors, including color and, probably, rock type.

It only acts to radiate back when you have the full power of the sun though. A little 60w in a reflector is not sufficienty to really effectively heat a 10 lb limestone rock, especially when it's also half burried in another heatsink, soil (I'm doing bioactive setup with that rock I was referring to).

[joeysgreen]

Yes, regarding the heat sink rock. Think about your scenario about standing on the rock versus the soil or wood. If you were to try that in the morning, the rock would feel cool a lot longer than the other materials. Later in the evening, after the sun goes down, it remains warmer much longer, because it has absorbed so much more energy during the day. Now if you don't supply enough energy (as per the 60W bulb example) to increase the rock's temperature to the same as the rest of the enclosure, then it will constantly be a heat sink; because energy goes from warm to cold.

[Simland]

Yes, regarding the heat sink rock. Think about your scenario about standing on the rock versus the soil or wood. If you were to try that in the morning, the rock would feel cool a lot longer than the other materials. Later in the evening, after the sun goes down, it remains warmer much longer, because it has absorbed so much more energy during the day. Now if you don't supply enough energy (as per the 60W bulb example) to increase the rock's temperature to the same as the rest of the enclosure, then it will constantly be a heat sink; because energy goes from warm to cold.

That's almost essentially my point. I almost put a word in there about it being context specific (e.g. the slab of rock being a heat sink part of the day and a heat source the rest of it and part of the night).

I didn't know we were talking about a 10 pound rock with a 60W bulb. I wonder what my 75W bulb is doing to my smaller and thinner rock. 'will check when I get my heat gun.

[joeysgreen]

It's all about mass. I have used some pretty big rocks in terraria and no bulb had enough energy to raise it's temperature significantly. Thinner slabs that have good area, but low mass, will work best in most applications (sometimes a heat sink is desired).

[Simland]

I checked my surface temperatures and my rock and substrate are a few degrees higher than the air temperature, with the rock generally being about 1C above the temp of the soil. But my rock is nowhere near 10 pounds.

[joeysgreen]

What time of day was this; noon? How many hours were the lights on?

[Simland]

It was in the afternoon, if I remember correctly. In the morning after a short time with the heat lamp on, the rock and the soil are at the same temperature, a couple of degrees above the air temperature.