narrow-headed garter snake

[AntTheDestroyer]

Does anyone keep or know anyone that keeps Thamnophis rufipunctatus? I know that they are not doing well in the wild but I have found a few sources that suggest people might keep in captivity. They are really unique looking and have some neat color variations. I wonder how they do in captivity and if I would be able to find captive bread specimens.

[Eddie]

I love the the third pic!! They are very unique. I wanted to work with them many years ago but decided to stick with easterns. Good luck on your quest!

[Albert Clark]

Does anyone keep or know anyone that keeps Thamnophis rufipunctatus? I know that they are not doing well in the wild but I have found a few sources that suggest people might keep in captivity. They are really unique looking and have some neat color variations. I wonder how they do in captivity and if I would be able to find captive bread specimens.
Never seen them b4 Ant, but I will keep an eye out for them. I'll be doing some travelling soon and I will keep you posted. Are they a mid western species, eastern states , or western? From your pics they may be a coastal species. :eek:

[guidofatherof5]

Narrow-headed Gartersnake - Thamnophis rufipunctatus (http://www.californiaherps.com/noncal/southwest/swsnakes/pages/t.rufipunctatus.html)

[guidofatherof5]

I'm not sure but they are probably protected in their respective ranges NM, AZ. and certainly Mexico.

[Albert Clark]

Thanks. I'll check the literature but off hand do you know if its a federal protection or is it like native species and centered around a state protection/ endangered type issue?

[guidofatherof5]

My guess would be it State protection. I've never seen these in the hobby, that I can remember.

[Albert Clark]

Thanks, I've never seen them in my life or heard of them. They actually resemble the anaconda except for the elongated head and snout. And of course the size, eye location , and scale type.

[AntTheDestroyer]

I'm not sure but they are probably protected in their respective ranges NM, AZ. and certainly Mexico.


My guess would be it State protection. I've never seen these in the hobby, that I can remember.

That is kind of what I was afraid of. If you have not seen them in the hobby then I don't hold much hope.


I love the the third pic!! They are very unique. I wanted to work with them many years ago but decided to stick with easterns. Good luck on your quest!

Were you able to find some back then? I would be interested in any info you have about them in captivity.


Thanks, I've never seen them in my life or heard of them. They actually resemble the anaconda except for the elongated head and snout. And of course the size, eye location , and scale type.

I had not heard of them until recently as well. Yeah I really like their pattern.

[Eddie]

The reason I never got them was because I could never find any available. I do really love the way they look. Good luck finding some!

[joeysgreen]

I would just caution if they were to suddenly turn up. Even if they were captive bred... was it a gravid mother taken from the wild? Did someone grab a group and breed them? It doesn't sound bad on the surface, but it's not conservationism, it's theft.

Ian

[guidofatherof5]

Once again Steve Schmidt comes through with some vital information. Looks like the Thamnophis rufipunctatus (Narrow-Headed Garter Snake) is Federally Threatened along with T. e. megalops (Northern Mexican garter snake). They shouldn't be found in the hobby.
Species Profile for Narrow-headed garter snake (Thamnophis rufipunctatus) (http://ecos.fws.gov/speciesProfile/profile/speciesProfile.action?spcode=C051)
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2014-07-08/pdf/2014-14615.pdf

[Albert Clark]

Once again Steve Schmidt comes through with some vital information. Looks like the Thamnophis rufipunctatus (Narrow-Headed Garter Snake) is Federally Protected along with T. e. megalops (Northern Mexican garter snake). They shouldn't be found in the hobby.
Species Profile for Narrow-headed garter snake (Thamnophis rufipunctatus) (http://ecos.fws.gov/speciesProfile/profile/speciesProfile.action?spcode=C051)
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2014-07-08/pdf/2014-14615.pdf
Okay! That's enough info for me. End of story for trying to obtain a pair of t.rufi.

[Rushthezeppelin]

I wonder if it's possible to obtain any special permits to help keep captive populations alive. Afterall an important part of species conservation is trying to be able to captive breed them in case their habitat completely crashes and everything has to be reintroduced or in the case of restored habitats.

[BUSHSNAKE]

The best way to conserve a species is to protect the habitat. That comes first. Ive been herping my whole life and stuff that use to be so easy to find are becomer harder to come by due to development

[Rushthezeppelin]

The best way to conserve a species is to protect the habitat. That comes first. Ive been herping my whole life and stuff that use to be so easy to find are becomer harder to come by due to development

Ohhh of course it is. Just saying captive breeding programs are also another important piece of the conservation puzzle too.

[joeysgreen]

Rush, captive breeding is being done in zoos (I can't say specifically for this species). Those are the applicable permits necessary. For captive assurance colonies to have any use for reintroduction it has to be run by a program a lot more vigorous than what hobbyists or any individual can realistically manage. If you look at Species Survival Plans (SSP's), they are run by experts that include biologists, veterinarians, ecologists etc that not only oversee the management and genetics of the assurance colony, but encompass the in-situ work to try and save the species in the wild.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Not saying post them on facebook for sale to anyone, but a properly vetted hobbyist with the proper knowledge and proper housing (and maybe even some limited veterinary skills) I'd imagine could help with the process.

[BUSHSNAKE]

The thing is, i could breed chicago garters and produce hundreds of babies a year. That doesnt bring back a population that use to live in a field thats now a walmart or gas station or house. Im just using chicago garters as an example cuz that what i see first hand

[joeysgreen]

lol, I get your point about Facebook Rush :) My only point is that there is a lot more to breeding for conservation than breeding the animals. So much expertise is involved that if you have it, you aren't really a hobbyist anymore.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Fair enough I suppose....certainly saying these people work in close conjunction with the zoo administering the program for sure so they can help regiment the breeding and such to ensure healthiest gene pool possible. I guess you are correct in stating at that point you aren't a hobbyist though but a conservationist.

[Albert Clark]

Maybe this should be brought up as a topic with your, our, my local herpetological societies. Since they are usually associated with local universities, to formulate the best strategy to request permission to acquire specimens ( t.rufi) for a breeding program. Once a written request is agreed upon then, as a group, send copies out to local zoos, in conjunction with the university to USFWS, USARK, and any other related wildlife law enforcement agencies.

[joeysgreen]

I would also check out the Association of Zoos and Aquariums, and the World Association of Zoos and Aquariums to see if there is a current Species Survival Program for Thamnophis rufi. The coordinators of the SSP will be your best contact regarding a) what is already being done and b) what you need to do to help. If there is not an SSP yet, then contacting leading authors on the species would (use Google Scholar) be a start towards creating an SSP. Additionally, creating a facility run by your herp society (or similar) will strongly influence your bid towards helping the species by captive breeding. This means that the species is in the hands of a group and not an individual, hence factors like individual health, losing a job, moving away, losing interest etc. aren't applicable.

[Jeff B]

You guys should read the book, "The Invisible Ark, In Defense of Captivity" by David and Tracy Barker.

[guidofatherof5]

The Invisible Ark in Defense of Captivity: David & Tracy Barker: 9780978541118: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/The-Invisible-Ark-Defense-Captivity/dp/0978541111)

[Eddie]

You are awesome Steve!!

[guidofatherof5]

You are awesome Steve!!

Thanks Eddie.

[joeysgreen]

lol, you should also read Stolen World, the book that shows up as additional reading :)