Bloody Regurge

[d_virginiana]

First of all, I'm not posting for my snakes, I'm posting for my dad (I think his username is EKS). I don't actually have internet for the moment so I won't be able to check this, but he has to go to work so I'm writing this from his computer since it's pretty urgent.

The snake that regurged is a female blackneck that is 8+ years old (don't know the exact age). She regurged seven pinkies and a LOT of blood. The pinkies had not been digested at all really. He said that when he fed her last night she got over excited and accidentally bit herself, and he saw a drop of blood in the corner of her mouth and assumed it was from that, but could never find the spot where she bit herself. She was acting alert and completely normal literally up to the moment of the regurge. I happened to be there and thought it would be a good idea to snatch her cagemate out before he could come into contact with any of it and put him in a separate bin. If it does happen to be something contagious, hopefully that was quick enough.

I know it doesn't look good for the female at this point, but if anyone has seen anything like this and can help us identify the cause it'd be good to know.

My recommendation was to basically do three quarantines of 90 days (they also have a 1-2 year old female that is the littermate of my blacknecks and is housed separately). As in, not use any of the same equipment between the sick female and the other two, and not use any of the same equipment between the male that was living with her and the female that is housed separately. Not knowing the cause, I'm just playing it safe and running under the assumption that whatever this is is contagious.

I might not be able to reply to this until I get my internet set up, so I'll tell my dad to check this thread for anything you guys have to say as far as what this could be and how strictly he should quarantine.

[guidofatherof5]

Might be bleeding caused by the regurge. Broken blood vessels from the pressure. Any photos? When or was this snake dewormed? Give me a call EKS56 if you want.

[EKS56]

No photos. The pinkies were small, very little digestion if any. She looks like she still has some to throw up. We were handling her just before she threw up. That should not have been the problem. Had a good appetite when I fed last night. The only thing out of the ordinary was she missed her pinkie and bit herself twice. She has never been dewormed.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Hmmmm, I half wonder if handling it within the first 24 hours after feeding might have had an effect. Especially with something that takes a while to digest like pinks I try to leave them be for at least 24 hours before handling. I'm just going by the general warnings I've seen from most people who handle snakes. Was she showing any signs of being overly stressed by being handled (was she trying to run away or anything.....she might have regurged to get a faster escape).

[Albert Clark]

Wow, sorry to hear about the dilemma wth the blackneck female. Usually a regurgitation episode comes from too big of a meal at one feeding. Is she a captive bred blackneck? I see where you stated she had never been dewormed? The other possibilities are husbandry related especially the temps. Too high or too low. Excessively low is mostly the cause due to poor digestion. The other is excessive handling after a meal. Why 7 pinkies instead of a single appropriate sized meal? Were these small pinks or large. Either or it seems like quite a bit for 1 meal. The blood could be from the superficial veins of the pinkies. Hope this helps.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Very good point too Albert. I'm always careful to only feed pinks in the morning so they have a full day of basking to get it as digested as possible before it's lights out. Perhaps it wasn't digesting right because of being fed in the evening and decided it was best to just regurge the meal. Also could me size of the meal too I suppose or a combo of the two.

[Albert Clark]

Thanks, certainly could be parasitic as another possibility. I think that is a long shot though. Parasitic is usually accompanied by inappetance, lethargy and diarrhea. Hopefully it's not that. What are the husbandry numbers? Ambient, warm side, basking temperature? She will need a rest from feeding in general for about a week. After that I would just go with maybe a couple of guppies to start and nothing more bc the gastric acids from the regurge can cause irritation to the esophagus and upper gastrointestinal tract.

[EKS56]

When I came in from work tonight she was nearly comatose. Had to watch her for a while to see if she was breathing. There had been no more vomiting. I have no idea how old she is. I've had her for almost four years and my daughter seemed to think she was old when I got her. I don't think this is parasitic. It may just be her time. :( I might add nothing has changed in my feeding routine. Also, no new snakes have been introduced in nearly a year.
One thing out of the ordinary. When she went after her first pinkie she missed and bit herself not once but twice. That had never happened before. I noticed she had a very small amount of blood on her lip but I couldn't see a mark where she had bit herself. She went on to eat a good meal.
Thanks for everyone's advice.

[EKS56]

Not at all agitated by the handling. Cool as a cucumber.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I had a plains garter bleed out the mouth one time and i think it was an aneurysm she was comatose after and passed the next day. She was captive bred and born and only fed frozen thawed mice from birth so i don't suspect parasites were the cause of her death. The sad thing is we don't never know what's going on inside these critters. I sure hope this one makes a turn around and recovers!

[Albert Clark]

Well, you can try bumping the temps up a few degrees to give her immune system a jump start and hope that can be a initial treatment. Monitor her closely and if there is more lethargy and decreased responsiveness consider a herp vet? Hope to see her improving.

[EKS56]

Much to my surprise she was still alive when I got up this morning and seems much more alert. No more signs of vomiting in the enclosure.

[Albert Clark]

Much to my surprise she was still alive when I got up this morning and seems much more alert. No more signs of vomiting in the enclosure.

That's great news EKS, I was thinking about her all night. I get the feeling she will recover and thrive. Please go easy on the future feedings bc of the regurge. I would really just go with a couple of guppies (live) to get her going. Maybe don't even begin trying to feed for about 1 week. My blue Puget female is recovering from a large output of slugs and a stillborn and is starting to look better now. I am still feeding her sparingly. :)

[EKS56]

That's great news EKS, I was thinking about her all night. I get the feeling she will recover and thrive. Please go easy on the future feedings bc of the regurge. I would really just go with a couple of guppies (live) to get her going. Maybe don't even begin trying to feed for about 1 week. My blue Puget female is recovering from a large output of slugs and a stillborn and is starting to look better now. I am still feeding her sparingly. :)


Thanks, I'd hate to lose her. I have had her for several years and her cage mate would be lonesome with out her.

[guidofatherof5]

Please keep us posted on this situation. I know she means a lot to you. She's in my prayers.

[EKS56]

I'm sorry to say that Big Momma died while I was at work tonight. She apparently had another major blood loss episode and passed. I'll miss her. Thanks to all of you for your advice and concern. :(

[Rushthezeppelin]

So sorry to hear : / Sounds like she lived a nice full life both in the wild and in captivity. Sorry for your loss :(

[BLUESIRTALIS]

So sorry to hear this! I was hoping she would make a full recovery! I just want you to know i don't think you or a vet could have done anything for this snake as i really think it was probably a busted blood vessel/aneurysm. Even if it was a parasite like a lung fluke or something the damage would have been to far at this point to treat. Just know that you gave her a nice quality happy like while she was in your care.

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear about her passing. R.I.P. Big Momma.

[Albert Clark]

Man! I am so sorry and so shocked as well. Did not think she was going to pass. I was really pulling for her. Just goes to show us how much we are not in control. Especially when it comes to life and or death. We all will miss her even though we only met her vicariously through you EKS56. My condolences go out to you.

[joeysgreen]

I'm sorry to hear of your loss EK56.

If I had any suggestions, it would be to feed less prey, more often. Gartersnakes love to feast, but aren't really built for large meals; it probably wasn't the problem but could have been.

As per Virginia's concerns about contagious factors etc. If you want to know what happened your best chance is to have a necropsy done; have the body refridgerated and contact your veterinarian.

And while I know in most cases BlueSirtalis may be right, there are a lot of cool things that could have been done to try to remedy the situation... I guess first and foremost since blood loss appears to be the major cause of death, would be a blood transfusion. I've done these in birds and reptiles and lucky enough, most people probably have blood donors as well (because who only has one snake :) ). Bloodwork, imagery, endoscopy and surgery are all options to diagnose and potentially treat.

Ian

[Rushthezeppelin]

Do herps only have one blood type or something? I would be deathly afraid to do a transfusion on a snake thinking there would be rejection of the blood.

[guidofatherof5]

Blood transfusion? Due to their size blood is a commodity they don't have much of. This is why blood workups on garters is so problematic. Testing requires too much and they just don't have it to give. I think the blood donor would now be at risk if used.

[d_virginiana]

Just got internet again.

I was sad to hear that Big Mama passed. She was always bitey in the tank and hard to pick up but completely calm once you got her out, and big enough that you really didn't want to get tagged. Feisty enough to be fun to handle, but calm enough once you got her out that it wasn't super stressful.

I agree with Steve about the transfusions. I almost had to have a blood-draw done on a fairly big female once as kind of a last-ditch effort to figure out what was going on, and the vet (a herp specialist) was still worried that it could be fatal because of her small size. I probably would never risk the health of the donor on something like that.

Just to clarify on the number of pinkies: The last shipment they got was messed up and they sent the wrong size. They gave me a bag of them, and I prefer to feed smaller meals more often, but they were small enough that I had to up the number of mice I was feeding and my adult male that I still baby and cut his food in two for (because I'm super paranoid and he's on the small side)could handle them whole. Big Mama was a BIG female too. So it was a bigger meal than what I usually give mine, but they were small enough that I wouldn't say it was a dangerously large meal for a snake her size.

[joeysgreen]

The general rule of thumb for taking blood on an animal is 10% (blood sample) of 10% (blood volume). So if your gartersnake is a massive 100 grams, you can safely take 1ml. Many gartersnakes are in the 40 gram range, so you can take 0.4mls of blood. I can run a full chemistry and CBC on 0.15mls. Certainly if you have concerns of blood loss, you won't be taking the full 0.4mls, and you may want to avoid sampling until later, once the animal has stabilized. Now for the transfusion, if an animal that is 40 grams, 0.4-0.5mls of blood can make all the difference; that is why transfusions are used.

There are no documented blood types in reptiles. With that said, there are methods to test blood compatibility prior to transfusion. Now when dealing with such small volumes and little time these tests are generally skipped. You may have heard that you get one free blood transfusion. That is because when you receive blood, you have not had a chance to build antibiodies against it. Therefore your first blood transfusion generally goes well, with little or no reaction. Now if you needed a second transfusion in the future, you would have a humoral immunity already standing by, should we be talking about incompatible bloods. To clarify, reactions to blood transfusions are allergenic; and to summarize, all medical treatments are a weighing of pro's and con's. Do we watch this animal bleed to death, or do we accept the risks with the procedures trying to save it?

[guidofatherof5]

That decision rests with the snakes keeper.