Safety issue feeding earthworms

[mcspin]

I've seen the repeated warnings about feeding compost worms and iffy warnings about European Nightcrawlers. What I haven't been able to find is any detail on what the problem is. I've spent some time searching and haven't been able to find a single study that describes what the problem is. I haven't even found an account of a person who has actually lost a snake that was being fed exclusively any type of worm where the death can be attributed to the worms.

I have a lot of questions and thought maybe someone here can supply some detail. Is it a toxic compound that the worm produces? If so, what is it? Or, is it likely the worms were feeding on rotting material that is very high in a type of virulent bacteria? Or, is it possibly due to a contaminant that got on the worm before feeding. Is the death quick after eating a few worms, or does it take days, weeks or months? Is the problem only with one specie of worms or more? Has anyone here actually lost a snake they know was killed by eating a particular type of worm?

It would seem to me that if there is a real and serious issue that there would be some kind of detailed information on the problem. Lot's of beginners would feed worms without ever coming to the internet to find these details. I would expect to see reports of people with dying snakes that just ate a bunch of worms coming here for help. I can't find anything other than anecdotal accounts that are usually more of the " I've heard that it's bad". Heck, I fed some white worms before learning of the worm "problem" and the garters gobbled them down. They are easy to culture so I can always go that route, but I think red worms would be more nutritious.

Since I'm going to culture a worm for the snakes, it would sure make it a lot easier to culture a worm that is prolific and with a wide temperature tolerance. It would also be nice to find some reliable information on what exactly the problem with some worms is. If no one knows, I will eventually set up my own experiments and find out, but I can't do that with the few garters I have at this time. So, if you have a link to a good source explaining this problem I would greatly appreciate it.

[guidofatherof5]

Eisenia fetida, red wiggler, panfish worms (sold at Walmart).
I have seen first hand what these worms can do to little snakes. Many years ago I fed some to my garters and the reaction was quite dramatic. Snakes puking and a few having small seizures. I never lost any snakes but count myself lucky. I'll see what I can find with regards to the yellow liquid they use.



http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//821/medium/red_wiggler.png

[mcspin]

Thanks for that account. So, it appears if I feed a worm that is one of the problem species, I would see a reaction the day I feed the snakes. Does Walmart label what species they are selling? From what I've read, there are at least 3-4 different species of Eisenia.

[guidofatherof5]

As long as you feed Canadian Night Crawlers - Lumbricus terrestris there is no need to worry. Avoid anything labeled Panfish worms, Red Wigglers, etc. Walmart labels theirs "Panfish Worms". In light of the safe worms out there it's best to avoid any Eisenia.
Night crawlers can be cut into very small pieces for little scrubs.

[Rushthezeppelin]

There are some studies that suggest the toxicity of the yellow secretion from red wigglers is only toxic if they have been feeding in compost and other anaerobic rotting matter. In theory a wiggler fed in a non-anaerobic environment would not have a toxicity to it's secretion. I think this explains why some people don't report anything feeding them lots of times while other's get a dead snake from puking it's guts out within hours of the first one. Regardless I'm not interested in furthering this study atm so I personally stick with the canadian nightcrawlers. If I do see enough peer reviewed evidence on this though I would probably end up adding some to my enclosure I'm working on (it's a bioactive setup) as they would not be exposed to near as much anaerobic bacteria in that environment and actually help to cleanup snake poop when not being eaten.

[Qwerty3159]

Fed some of these to a toad many years ago. He loved nightcrawlers, but immediately spit these out when they gummed up his mouth with their secretions.

At the very least, I wouldn't feed them at all just to be safe. They're also marketed as Trout Worms in bait shops.

[mcspin]

There are some studies that suggest the toxicity of the yellow secretion from red wigglers is only toxic if they have been feeding in compost and other anaerobic rotting matter. In theory a wiggler fed in a non-anaerobic environment would not have a toxicity to it's secretion. I think this explains why some people don't report anything feeding them lots of times while other's get a dead snake from puking it's guts out within hours of the first one. Regardless I'm not interested in furthering this study atm so I personally stick with the canadian nightcrawlers. If I do see enough peer reviewed evidence on this though I would probably end up adding some to my enclosure I'm working on (it's a bioactive setup) as they would not be exposed to near as much anaerobic bacteria in that environment and actually help to cleanup snake poop when not being eaten.

This is my own personal suspicion. I use to raise them in large numbers to feed fish. I never had one with a yellow tail or one that smelled bad. I was very careful to feed only vegetable matter and only enough to be consumed well within 48 hours. The fish grew unbelievably fast and seemed to relish them. What I really enjoyed about culturing my own, was having the ability to control what they ate and how they were raised. I was convinced that worms raised on the best foods made fish grow even faster. I also made sure that the worms went at least 2 days without food before they were fed to the fish. I thought it was important to clean their gut out before the fish ate them.

I have no interest in culturing something like Canadian nightcrawlers - last time I tried, they died out after awhile. I think it was very moderate heat that they couldn't handle and the culture never got large enough to feed out of it. Maybe if I had a refrigerated room, it might be worth to try it again.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Its near impossible to culture nightcrawlers because they require at least 6' of soil depth (that's the reason they need to stay in your fridge....it's about 50 down there). The ones you buy at the store are mostly wild, mostly caught electrocuting the ground.

[joeysgreen]

I cultured red wrigglers in many of my enclosures and used them as feeders to whomever might like them. They were labeled red wrigglers but other than that I don't know what species they were; definitely not night crawlers, they were rather small.

[guidofatherof5]

I would caution anyone using any compost worms as feeders, especially with neonates/small snakes.

[mcspin]

I cultured red wrigglers in many of my enclosures and used them as feeders to whomever might like them. They were labeled red wrigglers but other than that I don't know what species they were; definitely not night crawlers, they were rather small.

When you say you cultured them in your enclosures, I don't know what that means. Are you saying you cultured them in the containers that held the snakes? Were the snakes small or large that you were feeding?

[Rushthezeppelin]

I'm assuming he had a setup with a soil mix as substrate in which case red wigglers can live in that just dandy. Some people use them in bioactive enclosures as they are one of many inverts you can put in to help cleanup herp waste. Just obviously a little iffy to do that with garters as I don't think there's enough evidence that they are safe if fed a clean diet.....hopefully we see more study on this subject soon.

[Albert Clark]

I always wondered about the parasitic loads in worms. Nightcrawlers and regular earthworms. I know they are a diet staple and naturally sought after by most garters. Like if they were fed exclusively, but with a very limited varied diet. Is it something that could become problematic? Since Canadian nightcrawlers are very easily obtained just like goldfish and red rosies the real junk food feeder fish. :eek:

[Rushthezeppelin]

Afaik Albert, there are no parasites that can affect both worms and herps. They are just too different. And as far as I know they don't even dormantly carry parasites that could be passed on to herps. Probably helps too that they live so far down in the soil where pretty much only ditritovorous bacteria and a few other creatures survive.

[mcspin]

I always wondered about the parasitic loads in worms. Nightcrawlers and regular earthworms. I know they are a diet staple and naturally sought after by most garters. Like if they were fed exclusively, but with a very limited varied diet. Is it something that could become problematic? Since Canadian nightcrawlers are very easily obtained just like goldfish and red rosies the real junk food feeder fish. :eek:

I have microscopes and equipment to do fecal smears and intestinal analysis of any critter I decide to culture. It will be the first thing I do with any worms I bring in. I did the same in the past when I brought them in, and didn't find anything. After feeding fish these for years, the fish never came down with any parasites either.

In the fish-raising business, we commonly gut-load worms to get good stuff into our fish. The reverse is easily true, and why I suspect these worms need to be purged before feeding, especially since most of the red wigglers you buy are raised in manure.

[joeysgreen]

Sorry guys, you are greatly mistaken about parasites! Worms, fish, tadpoles, lizards, snakes.... everything that is eaten by something else can be an intermediate host for a parasite. So yes, when you feed your gartersnake any prey item, it can get parasites from that animal. These parasites don't even necessarily have to affect the intermediate host (but there are some pretty fantastic ways that they do in some instances), nor are you likely to observe any signs of parasitism on a fecal analysis of your prey animal. Why? Because as an intermediate host, the parasites are not breeding within and they are more often than not embedded in the muscle or elsewhere; not in the GI tract... so sorry Steve mcspin, but I"ve cautioned others about how a little bit of knowledge can be a bad thing... leading to overconfidence, misinterpretation and mistakes. There is more to fecal analysis than having a microscope. I encourage you to keep practicing on your herps, but include a little humility and get a mentor, perhaps a local vet or tech is willing help you out.

So. Wild caught prey item, ie, bait worms, farmed feeder fish, contaminated feeder bugs etc are all potential reservoirs for parasites. If you captive breed these prey items for several generations without the presence of an end-host where parasites can breed (in this case gartersnakes and other reptiles), then you can be fairly certain that you now have a parasite free culture (from the perspective of the predator).

In my previous example, I had low risk cultures as described above, and added them to the substrate of animals that I was comfortable with their overall health and the balance I was offering to their enclosure with the addition of detritovores. They rarely crossed paths, but if they occasionally ate a worm I wasn't worried. If the worm tasted bad, they spit it out. These animals included box turtles, blue tongue skink, mossy tree frogs, veiled chameleon, tokay gecko, mad. giant day gecko and probably others... no garters as it's been a while since I"ve had any captive Thamnophis. As with any multispecies enclosure, there carries some risk, especially if you are inept at monitoring both the animal and it's environment for potential pitfalls. Nonetheless, it can be done, and many people do it, many better than I for certain.

I apologize if I came across as confrontational; I didn't mean such, but add information when I feel it's helpful.

[mcspin]

Because as an intermediate host, the parasites are not breeding within and they are more often than not embedded in the muscle or elsewhere; not in the GI tract... so sorry Steve mcspin, but I"ve cautioned others about how a little bit of knowledge can be a bad thing... leading to overconfidence, misinterpretation and mistakes. There is more to fecal analysis than having a microscope. I encourage you to keep practicing on your herps, but include a little humility and get a mentor, perhaps a local vet or tech is willing help you out.

I have done thousands of examinations of animals for internal parasites. Please name the parasite or the eggs of parasites that I cannot find by opening the worm and examining the contents of the worm?




I apologize if I came across as confrontational; I didn't mean such, but add information when I feel it's helpful. Apology not accepted joeysgreen. There are far better ways of putting forth a point, even one that is not correct.

[joeysgreen]

You've done thousands of examinations for internal parasites and you havn't heard of larval migration, dead-end hosts, intermediate hosts or any of the thousands of other examples of parasites no in the gastrointestinal tract? Do you not study parasitic life cycles? A simple example is toxoplasmosis. You are more likely to get it from eating uncooked meat from an intermediate or dead-end host than from a cat where the litter box is cleaned on a regular basis.

One of the cool examples I alluded to earlier involves a fluke that enters the eyes and CNS of a snail. It causes the snail (intermediate host) to behave differently, climbing to the top of the grass where it is more likely to be eaten by a bird where the parasite can then reproduce. It is in this bird (definitive host) that you may find eggs in the gastrointestinal system.

GoogleLeucochloridium paradoxum for a neat animal.

Involving frogs and gartersnakes, I"ll copy a bit from Chapter 3, page 128, Figure 3-22 Georgis Parasitology for Veterinarians, Eighth Edition by Dwight D. Bowman


Life history of Alaria marcianae (Diplostomatidae). Miracidia develop in eggs deposited in water, hatch, and enter planorbid snails of the genus Helisoma where they develop into forked-tailed cercariae. Cercariae penetrate the skin and enter the tissues of tadpoles of the leopard frog Rana pipiens where, undergoing only minor changes, they remain as mesocercariae. If the tadpole is eaten by a frog, snake, bird, or mammal, the mesocercariae invade the tissues of these paratenic hosts but again remain mesocercariae.... The definitive host in this case is a cat, but it should illustrate the picture that not all parasites are in the gastrointestinal tract.

I hope this helps.

[mcspin]

There's no need to jump to conclusions or to continue with your rudeness. You have no clue as to what I know and what experience I have. I've treated for parasites that came from intermediate hosts several times. They were one of the more simple to eradicate. Simply treat the animal for the adult parasite and then break the life cycle of the parasite and they're gone. To do this is not difficult. Separate the intermediate host from the snake for a period of time. Eventually, the intermediate host will have eaten all the viable parasite eggs and the resulting larval stage will have died off. De-worm the original snake and then put the "clean" animals back together. I've done this type of treatment several times with intermediate hosts and it worked every time. This would be very easy to do with earthworms in an indoor culture and snakes in an enclosure.

There are several other way to handle parasite problems - all very easy to do if you know the procedure. Testing for their presence in your animal is also not that difficult.

[joeysgreen]

If you feel it imperative, certainly fill in your experience so I am not making assumptions.

You are correct in that the simple way to solve a problem with an indirect life-cycle parasite is to separate the necessary hosts. You are incorrect in thinking that in time an animal will somehow be clear of these parasites, which are often encysted in the muscle or other tissue indefinitely. Nor can you detect these parasites by means already discussed.

[mcspin]

My degree is in fisheries biology. I own and operate a large tropical fish hatchery. I've been researching parasitic infections for 42 years. I have developed treatment protocols that are used throughout the tropical fish industry. I have bred and raised many animals including chickens, rabbits, birds and turtles, and millions of fish from many species. I have set up a small lab in my business where I do the analysis.

Like I said before, give me an example of a parasite that I cannot find in an earthworm, if it's there. Encysted parasites generally get there as external parasites and they are the easiest to treat. Those that get there from the intestinal tract will continue to infect the intestinal tract. Once the parasite is identified, elimination is generally straight forward. Some can be difficult to kill, especially if the host is very weak, but I've yet to run into one that couldn't be dealt with. Your warnings are okay for someone who doesn't know how to analysis parasitic infections and treat them. I am not one of those.

[Albert Clark]

So getting back to my original question about the parasitic loads in nightcrawlers and earthworms. Is it safe to say that there is or isn't anything to worry about when feeding them to garters and supplementing with a limited varied diet? I understand Rush's points. But any other input?

[guidofatherof5]

I have been feeding night crawlers as a main food source for years and haven't seen any ill effects to my garters. They are all healthy and grow strong. This also goes for my wild population which is large. All the snakes are big and healthy on a main diet of night crawlers. Is there a risk? Yes but I feel it is small in comparison to other wild food sources. For example, I've never found a wild T. radix with subcutaneous worms but have found them in my captive snakes(3 cases). My guess is they came from pet store feeder guppies or gambusia.

[joeysgreen]

Steve Mcspin, I"m not going to get into a pissing match with you. I've offered a correction to the misconceptions I saw in the discussion and am prepared to leave it at that.

Albert, I"d say Steve guido's approach is sensible. I would add that doing regular examinations and fecal analysis on your snakes is a good way to stay on top of the parasitic concerns that lay with feeding any live prey. And as discussed in the above tangents, feeding a captive bred source will greatly decrease risks of parasitic burden.

[mcspin]

Steve Mcspin, I"m not going to get into a pissing match with you. I've offered a correction to the misconceptions I saw in the discussion and am prepared to leave it at that.

Albert, I"d say Steve guido's approach is sensible. I would add that doing regular examinations and fecal analysis on your snakes is a good way to stay on top of the parasitic concerns that lay with feeding any live prey. And as discussed in the above tangents, feeding a captive bred source will greatly decrease risks of parasitic burden.

Hey Dipwad, my name is not Steve McSpin. If you don't want to get into a pissing match then quit pissing on me. You flat out don't know what you're talking about.

[joeysgreen]

LOL, you sign Steve, and I need to differentiate you from the other Steve (who's name isn't really Steve guido) in this thread. I figured it was common sense, I guess I should apologize to the both of you, sorry.

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about... this is the internet. If it doesn't make sense, then ignore it.

[guidofatherof5]

How did I get pulled into this? I'm guidofatherof5 and my name is Steve.:D

[d_virginiana]

Geez, this went from informative to just plain pointless pretty quickly. I was actually interested in any accounts someone might have of parasites from earthworms being passed to garters. You guys don't have to 'out science' each other.

I've never personally heard of a case of even suspected transfer of parasites from Canadian nightcrawlers to garters, so I kind of run under the assumption that garters are probably not the intended final hosts for whatever they generally carry, and the risk is minimal. I'm always interested in hearing of potential problems with feeders and how to avoid them though.
One simple reason I don't use or even bother to research wigglers is that nothing I have wants them (I tried before I ever even heard anything bad about them). One of the frog species I keep is notorious for spitting them out and refusing them, and this is a species famous for eating things like cage decor.

Just a note on culturing nightcrawlers, my parents did it successfully for years (and they had some GIANTS... I was a kid at the time, so I may be exaggerating the memory but they consistently had like 6 inch worms). I think their trick was using a deep tupperware bin with pretty deep soil kept in a basement that stays at a pretty constant temp of 'quite chilly' year round. I just moved back to the same area as them... I should convince them to start doing that again so I have a good supply :p

[Taso]

I just moved back to the same area as them... I should convince them to start doing that again so I have a good supply :p

Let them know I'd be interested in buying some, lol. :D

[Rushthezeppelin]

I'm interested in how the successfully did it themselves...

[d_virginiana]

I'm interested in how the successfully did it themselves...

I'll ask them, but from what I remember, it was pretty simple. They used some topsoil from WalMart without any pesticides or fertilizers in it, as well as some top soil dug up from the yard. Overall soil depth was deep enough that you wanted a trowel to dig down to the worms. They had one of those big solid-color rubbermaid tubs so no light got in, and kept wet newspaper layered over the top of the soil. They stocked it with a couple containers of the DMF nightcrawlers from WalMart and fed them some brand-name worm food they found online as well as fruit and vegetable scraps.
From what I remember they didn't ventilate the tub either...
Anyway, they had a pretty good worm supply for several years off just those couple containers of worms, as well as a lot of regular backyard earthworms (from the yard soil they put in there). Eventually they just kind of got tired of keeping them.

[Rushthezeppelin]

How odd I've always heard canadian nightcrawlers needed like 6ft of soil depth to live in.

[guidofatherof5]

Come Winter they certainly need to get below the frost line.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Ohhh maybe that's why....they only need that much in the wild. Inside we can regulate more constant temps for them, although I know the prefer in the 50s which can be a challenge to do with a fridge dedicated to them. Or a root cellar which don't exist in texas lol.