Appropriate size difference for garters that will be kept together

[Simland]

Hi,

I have two Eastern garter snakes (Thamnophis sirtalis). One's in quarantine for the moment, but after that, I would like to house them together. However, I've read that, while they are not usually cannibalistic, it's preferable to house only garters of similar size together to avoid unfortunate incidents. So, I was wondering if my garters are close enough in size.

I haven't measured them exactly, but the smallest one is about 20 inches long and the larger one is about 30 inches long. I believe they are both females, if that makes any difference.

The larger of the 2 tanks is a 30 gallon long terrarium. Would that be large enough for the two of them? At some point in the future, I would like to make a lid for that terrarium that would be fully escape proof even for the small snake so I can add a "second floor" over a quarter of the terrarium, to add surface area, but at the moment, it's just a basic 30 gallon setup.

Any advice (about size or other aspects of housing garters together would be appreciated).

[guidofatherof5]

Feeding incidents are a worry but if you monitor the feedings you will not have any problems. Posting a photo of each snake would be best. Use the same thing in both photos to show relative size please.
Be sure to introduce yourself in the welcome lounge so we can give you a proper hello.

[Simland]

Here's a composite picture. Somehow, I don't fee like it's selling the size difference really well...maybe because we don't see the rear half of their bodies. When I brought the smaller one home my reaction was something like "Man, my first one is huge!"

Maybe the fact that pictures don't sell the size difference very well is a sign that it's not big enough to matter...

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[guidofatherof5]

From the looks of that photo I'm thinking the smaller is a male. Head structure is narrow and body is narrow too. Post up an under tail photo and we'll sex it for you. Here's a link to a thread that will show you the kind of photos to post. Tail hanging straight down is best.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/5069-sexing-pics.html

[d_virginiana]

As far as size goes, I don't look so much for 'equal size' as close enough that the smaller would be able to hold its own if a food fight broke out. It's rare, and like Steve said, monitoring feedings reduces that risk even more. However, I've seen mine get defensive over a smear of blood or when something in the cage smells like food, so it's good to make sure the smaller one wouldn't just be snack-sized for the larger if something did happen.

EDIT: I agree with Steve; looks like a male and female to me. Size-wise I'd say they're okay to keep together, but only if you want babies.

[Simland]

What are the forbidden words on this forum? I wrote medium sized reply and it got denied and the only explanation was that it either had too many urls or it contained forbidden words. But there were no urls and no offensive words.

[Simland]

Well, since my last reply got posted rightaway, I'm going to try to post the one I mentioned in paragraphs, to see where the offending text is. (Sorry if it makes for weird entries.)

[guidofatherof5]

Usually certain words are just spelled out by the filter like this **** Your post is still seen just the offensive words are stared out.

[Simland]

Is there something you can do to confirm the sex when the tail "swelling" is subtle? I know some people use probes, but I don't have any and I wouldn't try without someone to show me how in person.

[Simland]

Regarding reproduction, will it happen even if I don't make them hibernate? In the future, I might like to have babies, but not now!!! I don't think I'm very far off the bottom of the learning curve, when it comes to rearing garter snakes, even though I've had the larger (hopefully correctly sexed) one for a year (she has been very easy to care for overall, although I might need to post another thread about her soon). I know a thing or two about their life in the wild, but that does not a good keeper make.

[Simland]

Second attempt at posting the first paragraph:

I'll need to take another look at the tail. I know how to sex using the tail, but I didn't think the "swelling" could be as subtle as it is on some of those photos. I did wonder if the head difference could indicate that I was wrong it looks thinner from the top, but "squarer" from the side. It's enough of a difference to suggest it might be something more than your average variation from one individual to another.

[Simland]

Does the forum forbid the slash symbol? Removing his [slash] her from my paragraph allowed it go through.

[guidofatherof5]

///////////\\\\\\\\\\\\ Slash symbol. Not a problem as I see it. Are you on a phone, tablet, P.C. ?

[d_virginiana]

To answer the brumation question, yes brumating makes mating and babies more likely, but there's also a decent chance of ending up with babies if you don't brumate. Also, I've seen my males occasionally go into 'mating mode' more than once a year; usually when the weather is changing and I have to play with the heat and lighting a bit, so you run a small risk of babies even if you house them together outside of the breeding season.

[Simland]

Just what I didn't want to hear, Lora, lol... But thanks for the information. It might avoid me some surprises.

Here are some pictures of the underside of my snakes' tails. Sorry for the low quality. That's what I get for putting them trough a photo session in low light. It's the best I could do on short notice.

There might be a bit of swelling at the base of Cimélane(the smaller one)'s tail....might have to change her name, I guess. It's a bit more obvious from the side, so I included a picture from that angle.

I included a photo of Ninja's tail, too, for good measure.

I'm looking forward to your thoughts.

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Steve: I'm on a PC. The only things I changed when I successfully posted that paragraph is that I removed a "his/her" from the text and I added the "Second attempt at posting the first paragraph:" line. Strange. Maybe it was a temporary glitch or something.

[Simland]

Let me know if the picture quality is too low for you guys to sex them and I'll try to take pictures in better light.

[Simland]

Just noticed the attachments aren't working. Here's another try:
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[Tommytradix]

3rd pic is definitely a male

[Simland]

Well, if this is true, this is a humbling experience, lol. I was utterly convinced this one was a female. I don't see any swelling at all at the base of the tail. It's relatively thick, but it tapers very evenly all the way to the tip. Better picture needed? Maybe one where the tail is straighter and the fingers don't hide as much of it?

I'll try to take better ones this weekend and maybe I'll post another thread specifically to get help sexing these snakes.

[guidofatherof5]

3rd pic is definitely a male


Agreed. Classic male tail.
Photo 1 is a little blurry and 2 is more of a profile shot not giving much information.

[guidofatherof5]

This is classic male tail. South of the vent the width stays the same on this snake for as much as a 10 scale count.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//821/medium/male_garter.png

[Simland]

I don't know whether to be glad because that means I might be able to put them together if the other one is indeed a male, as you guys thought, or sad because I really wanted a female...

I'll try to get a better picture of the other one this weekend...on my balcony, where I'll hopefully be able to stop down my camera more, to get a cleaner picture in spite of its restlessness.

[Simland]

Thanks for the description. It sounds like a much better one that the "swelling" one. In the future, instead of looking for swelling to identify a male, I'll look for tapering close to the vent to identify a female.

[guidofatherof5]

Check out this thread. It will teach/show you what to look for when sexing them.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/5069-sexing-pics.html

[Simland]

I wasn't able to take better pictures last weekend, when I had people over. As soon as I can, I'll try to take some myself with a tripod.

[Albert Clark]

Thanks for the description. It sounds like a much better one that the "swelling" one. In the future, instead of looking for swelling to identify a male, I'll look for tapering close to the vent to identify a female.
Preliminarily, pics 1 and 2 strike me as female in shape and tapering from a frontal view first and then lateral view second. The definitive way to sex a reptile is the "probing" and or "popping" methods. Both methods require the help of someone experienced in the procedures.