New Black and White Eastern Garter Morph Found!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jeff B]

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I don't know which is cuter, this kid and his shirt or the snake. What do you guys think?

[AntTheDestroyer]

Wow that may be the coolest one yet. It looks like a tiny dragon. So Jeff are you getting your hands on it?

[Eddie]

What state was that found in?

[Albert Clark]

Amazing! Looks just like the granite morph minus the pastel shading. Male or female ? It has some decent size also. Plans for this one?

[Zdravko092368]

Wow, this morph is fantastic, I can only begin to imagine the possibilities... I hope a breeder gets a hold of this!

[Albert Clark]

Wow, this morph is fantastic, I can only begin to imagine the possibilities... I hope a breeder gets a hold of this!
Yeppa , put my order and reservation in now for a pair of those !

[Rushthezeppelin]

Ohhh wow what a pretty morph. Hope this makes it into a breeders hands if for nothing else breeding temporarily.

[Albert Clark]

So, would this be aka a eastern granite or possibly a speckled eastern??????? It seems to have both potential phenotypical patterns ? :) And the kid and his shirt are cuter. Lol.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I want, I want, I want!!! I need, I need, I need!!! lol! Very Nice!

[Albert Clark]

I want, I want, I want!!! I need, I need, I need!!! lol! Very Nice!
Wow! Good to see you are just a new garter snake away! Haha. :D

[slipknot711]

this snake makes me giddy!

[Jeff B]

This snake was found in Pennsylvania by a man named Christian, his grandson Justin contacted me about this snake. Pictured is his nephew with the snake. Thankfully Christian did not kill the snake and captured it instead.

[snakeman]

A lot of morphs found in pa.none by me. :•(

[AntTheDestroyer]

A lot of morphs found in pa.none by me. :•(
Haha, sad clown. It is amazing how many of these morphs are found by people who are not looking when some people spend so much time searching. I guess there is just a lot more people who are not looking.

[AntTheDestroyer]

repeat

[Jeff B]

Pennsylvania does seem to be THE hotbed for morph eastern. It's a big state. I've always thought Pennsylvania would be a great state to live in. Definitely would be a great state to go herping.

[Jeff B]

Justin is a super nice guy and he and his nephew were stoked about the snake but realized that it would be best in the hands of a breeder.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Are you getting this one?

[Zdravko092368]

Haha, sad clown. It is amazing how many of these morphs are found by people who are not looking when some people spend so much time searching. I guess there is just a lot more people who are not looking.

Haha, you're telling me. I find between 200-300 easterns per year... waiting on my magic morph lol.

[Jeff B]

Are you getting this one?

Got this snake earlier this week. He has already eaten a night crawler and several pinkies. He also seems to be very alert and healthy. Hopefully, he will impregnate a lot of my females.
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[Rushthezeppelin]

OMG that is awesome.

[AntTheDestroyer]

Got this snake earlier this week. He has already eaten a night crawler and several pinkies. He also seems to be very alert and healthy. Hopefully, he will impregnate a lot of my females.
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Haha Jeff you sly old fox. Were you worried everyone here wouldn't be excited? That is silly.

[AntTheDestroyer]

grrrrr. Am I the only one having issues with double posts today?

[Jeff B]

No just wanted the initial focus to be on this amazing snake and not me. For me it is all about the animals, not ego, but some people don't view it that way.

[BUSHSNAKE]

cool snake Jeff, looks "stone washed"

[Jeff B]

yeah its not as white as some of the pics, its more of a off white gray background, but definitely much more high contrast than the silver morph. The black squares are also blacker then the silver morph. Plus he has pretty normal looking eyes, not ruby and not black like the melanistic either. Hopefully will prove to be a recessive gene, but will several years to prove, but I will be surprised if it is not a recessive gene.

[Jeff B]

Here are with and without flash pictures, viewed in person is somewhere in between color wise
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[Zdravko092368]

Here are with and without flash pictures, viewed in person is somewhere in between color wise
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Really neat animal, I hope this guy proves out.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Congrats jeff!!! Nice pick up!

[AntTheDestroyer]

No just wanted the initial focus to be on this amazing snake and not me. For me it is all about the animals, not ego, but some people don't view it that way.
I certainly don't see you in that light. The faded black marks behind his head are really neat and unique. Hopefully this one proves out, I would definitely consider adding one to my small collection.

[Jeff B]

My initial thought was that this is some form of leucistic, but the more I look at it I think maybe axanthic, or like a lot of garter genes something in between classic definition based on other snake species. It has normal eyes unlike leucistics. What do you guys think? Joe would really like to hear your take, but please don't tell me that it is melanistic or that you don't have an opinion :)
I could always call it Dalmatian, it is white with black spots.

[Eddie]

Call it Harlequin. Sounds better. LOL

[Jeff B]

Call it Harlequin. Sounds better. LOL
May as well go with Angel and Death. For now its just black and white.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Harlequin works better for flames though. If I ever get a girl flame I would actually call her Harley Quinn (Joker's sidekick).

[Tommytradix]

axanthic or granite???

[Rushthezeppelin]

Ya seems like a nonpastel granite or axanthic reduced pattern to me.

[Jeff B]

It's really not granite like the granite checkered or the golden morph where the pattern and squares are completely reduced to little irregular flecks It appears to be more a color mutation rather than a pattern mutation. All yellows, browns, and orange is stripped away and replaced with white pigment. I am not sure if the white is just what was there underneath or is it up-regulated. I think that future breedings may help answer some of those questions by the looking at the phenotypes when combined with other morphs.

[AntTheDestroyer]

What does a normal eastern from this location look like? There seems to be a lot of variation in wild eastern populations based on locality. I wonder if comparing it to that specific locality might give you a clue as to what is going on with him?

[Tommytradix]

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here is one from north east philly. they vary so much even in the same locale

[Tommytradix]

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heres a couple i found in the same area around my house in south jersey

[jere000]

I would definitely go with Axanthic, here's a definition of it.Doesn't look leucistic at all.
Axanthic: lacking [xanthophores] (which produce yellow pigment)

[AntTheDestroyer]

Thanks Tommy. From those pictures it is looks like a predominantly brown, yellow, and black snake. To me it seems that removing the reds and yellows takes care of most the colors in it. So to me it seems to be another anerytheristic and axanthic morph.

[BUSHSNAKE]

My initial thought was that this is some form of leucistic, but the more I look at it I think maybe axanthic, or like a lot of garter genes something in between classic definition based on other snake species. It has normal eyes unlike leucistics. What do you guys think? Joe would really like to hear your take, but please don't tell me that it is melanistic or that you don't have an opinion :)
I could always call it Dalmatian, it is white with black spots.
you talking about me? I don't need you to speak for me Jeff you punk:p j/k good luck with it.

[Albert Clark]

I had referred to it looking like a granite pattern earlier and also possibly resembling a speckled pattern. IMO, eastern granite or eastern speckled aka speckled eastern? Jeff, you said the black patches are more squared off or spotted? IDK. :D

[BUSHSNAKE]

It's really not granite like the granite checkered or the golden morph where the pattern and squares are completely reduced to little irregular flecks It appears to be more a color mutation rather than a pattern mutation. All yellows, browns, and orange is stripped away and replaced with white pigment. I am not sure if the white is just what was there underneath or is it up-regulated. I think that future breedings may help answer some of those questions by the looking at the phenotypes when combined with other morphs.
whatever it is I really hope it makes more for you...goodluck;)

[Jeff B]

you talking about me? I don't need you to speak for me Jeff you punk:p j/k good luck with it.
hhhhm, was hoping for some legitamate scientific reasoning and input...

[Albert Clark]

Okay Jeff, got it. Irregular flecks like the granite and golden differentiate this eastern black and white (axanthic) bc it's more of a color mutation than a pattern mutation. And the white coloration is suspect due to not knowing if it is normally there or whether it's a upgrade. Sure looks like he is going to intergrade easily being black and white though. Thanks for the explanation. :cool:

[BUSHSNAKE]

hhhhm, was hoping for some legitamate scientific reasoning and input...
if you want you can send it to me and ill get you some answers in a couple years...that's the fun of having something new:) SO go have some fun with it and let us know what you find out

[Tommytradix]

Please reproduce the origanal morph before mixing into erythristics and albinos.

[BUSHSNAKE]

hhhhm, was hoping for some legitamate scientific reasoning and input...
at this point everything is speculation...right??

[Jeff B]

at this point everything is speculation...right??
true

[Jeff B]

if you want you can send it to me and ill get you some answers in a couple years...that's the fun of having something new:) SO go have some fun with it and let us know what you find out
Point taken, first things first keep it alive and breed it in spring.

[Albert Clark]

Point taken, first things first keep it alive and breed it in spring.
What morph are you planning to pair the black and white to first? Do you have someone on the lookout for others at the original capture location in PA?

[Jeff B]

What morph are you planning to pair the black and white to first? Do you have someone on the lookout for others at the original capture location in PA?
All and yes

[Jeff B]

Just shed
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[Rushthezeppelin]

Nifty, he still has a slight hint of a dorsal stripe left. What a magnificent specimen.

[Albert Clark]

Jeff, by any chance, what if this black and white is a hybrid? Would you know before breeding him or do you have to wait to see what he produces?

[BUSHSNAKE]

Jeff, by any chance, what if this black and white is a hybrid? Would you know before breeding him or do you have to wait to see what he produces?

this isn't the first eastern that popped up with this appearance

[snakeman]

Kinda reminds me of that cyclone garter

[snakeman]

Have a side view pic?

[Jeff B]

Jeff, by any chance, what if this black and white is a hybrid? Would you know before breeding him or do you have to wait to see what he produces?
Chance of hybrid=0

[Albert Clark]

What criteria do you use in determining that. I don't doubt you but it is perplexing. Does it come down to color, pattern or a combination you know. How does anyone determine a hybrid outside of a known breeding history ? But for w/c , how?

[Eddie]

Its not a hybrid. Its common sense and nothing else

[AntTheDestroyer]

Its not a hybrid. Its common sense and nothing else
I don't get it. What does this have to do with common sense?

[Albert Clark]

Its not a hybrid. Its common sense and nothing else
With all due respect sir, I am looking for a anatomical , phenotypical differentiation in a specimen that was w/c as it relates to hybridization. It absolutely has nothing to do with common sense. If you can't contribute anything helpful just continue to read!

[guidofatherof5]

Its not a hybrid. Its common sense and nothing else


With all due respect sir, I am looking for a anatomical , phenotypical differentiation in a specimen that was w/c as it relates to hybridization. It absolutely has nothing to do with common sense. If you can't contribute anything helpful just continue to read!

Why the confrontation reply Albert? Eddie simply stated it was a matter of common sense as that relates to his perspective on the information given. I understood his word usage. He was contributing and certainly didn't make his statement to offend anyone. He too is a valued member of this page and telling him to "just continue to read" is inappropriate.
I'm not trying to start something here but why didn't you simply ask him to explain what he meant?

[Albert Clark]

First of all, how can you justify his comment about common sense when that certainly was directed to me and can easily be construed as offensive. What is inappropriate is his reference to "common sense" being the only way to qualify the differentiating factors in hybridization and how it relates to w/c individuals. If you feel that Eddies comment was a reasonable contribution to a educated question directed to clarify a perplexing issue I have to disagree. Confrontational? No. Just challenging Eddies response that to me, is not only inappropriate but its inadequate as it doesn't EXPLAIN any part of the original question. None of us know it all Steve that is why we ask questions. "Just continue to read" was preceded by my comment and my interpretation of his ( Eddies) less than helpful , poor , explanation of the hybridization of w/c's. How can the differentiating factors and any signs and or physical attributes of hybrids just be "common sense"? Come on, and your validating what he said? :confused:

[BLUESIRTALIS]

It reminds me of the cyclone garter a few years back! I think it was white and purple though.

[guidofatherof5]

First of all, how can you justify his comment about common sense when that certainly was directed to me and can easily be construed as offensive. What is inappropriate is his reference to "common sense" being the only way to qualify the differentiating factors in hybridization and how it relates to w/c individuals. If you feel that Eddies comment was a reasonable contribution to a educated question directed to clarify a perplexing issue I have to disagree. Confrontational? No. Just challenging Eddies response that to me, is not only inappropriate but its inadequate as it doesn't EXPLAIN any part of the original question. None of us know it all Steve that is why we ask questions. "Just continue to read" was preceded by my comment and my interpretation of his ( Eddies) less than helpful , poor , explanation of the hybridization of w/c's. How can the differentiating factors and any signs and or physical attributes of hybrids just be "common sense"? Come on, and your validating what he said? :confused:

First, I want to apologize to Eddie for speaking on his behalf and to Jeff for derailing his thread. Maybe I should have stayed out of it but I didn't.
Knowing the State(PA) this snake originated from is an important piece of evidence to the common sense response. PA has two native garter snakes T. s. sirtalis (Eastern garter snake) and Thamnophis brachystoma (Short-Headed Garter Snake) the latter being in very small isolated populations. The fact that the State is a hot bed for Eastern morphs over the years and that similar morphs like the "Granite" have been found there is important also. This by itself says a lot about the unlikelihood that the snake in question could a hybrid. There have been many hybrids posted to this page over the years and they all have one thing in common. They look like plain and simply a wash of the two snakes that produced them. Then I look at the experience and knowledge of the people responding to help put the evidence together.
With all of this I understand the common sense response and would have come to the same conclusion. I mean no offense in my response.

[Albert Clark]

First, I want to apologize to Eddie for speaking on his behalf and to Jeff for derailing his thread. Maybe I should have stayed out of it but I didn't.
Knowing the State(PA) this snake originated from is an important piece of evidence to the common sense response. PA has two native garter snakes T. s. sirtalis (Eastern garter snake) and Thamnophis brachystoma (Short-Headed Garter Snake) the latter being in very small isolated populations. The fact that the State is a hot bed for Eastern morphs over the years and that similar morphs like the "Granite" have been found there is important also. This by itself says a lot about the unlikelihood that the snake in question could a hybrid. There have been many hybrids posted to this page over the years and they all have one thing in common. They look like plain and simply a wash of the two snakes that produced them. Then I look at the experience and knowledge of the people responding to help put the evidence together.
With all of this I understand the common sense response and would have come to the same conclusion. I mean no offense in my response.


So, you still validate the "common sense" comment knowing full well a lot of people, including myself is and was not privy to the facts you just laid out! There are a lot of people who don't even know what a hybrid is and some cant even spell the word. Taking that into consideration I don't know how Eddie and you can generalize and refer to the intelligent question of recognizing hybrids in w/c's as being "common sense". Anyway, we all see things differently and I am done with this thread. Thanks for the explanation, those facts are relatively new to me and I'm sure other members and visitors to the page about how state location plays a role in hybridization? I think the original question can be answered when I "continue my reading" and research. No pun intended. :)

[Jeff B]

So, you still validate the "common sense" comment knowing full well everyone including myself is and was not privy to the facts you just laid out! There are a lot of people who don't even know what a hybrid is and some cant even spell the word. Taking that into consideration I don't know how Eddie and you can generalize and refer to the intelligent question of recognizing hybrids in w/c's as being "common sense". Anyway, we all see things differently and I am done with this thread. Thanks for the explanation, those facts are relatively new to me and I'm sure other members and visitors to the page about how state location plays a role in hybridization? I think the original question can be answered when I "continue my reading" and research. No pun intended. :)

Albert it is probably a good idea to do your research and homework BEFORE going off on a thread like this. The term hybrid is used to describe a breeding of two different species of snakes that would never meet in the wild, hence would be done deliberately in captivity. The term intergrade is used to describe when two species or subspecies ranges overlap and occasionally would mix breed in the wild.
So, to use the term hybrid was a bit of a misnomer on your part, considering it was a wild caught, unless you are challenging the validity of the story behind how this snake arose from the wild, which i doubt was your intent.
The chance of it being an intergrade is also ZERO because there is not intergrade possibility in the range where this snake was found.
There are no two snake species or subspecies that would even have traits that would lend to the look of this snake and as Steve pointed out captive hybrids have shown to produce plain jane duds.
With all that background it is why I posted chance of hybrid=0 and for most in the hobby for years this seems like common sense.
Also, the extreme look of this snake lends me to believe that it is likely a genetic mutation where the pigments that produce colors other than black and white are repressed or defective at some stage of the biochemical pathway that produces them. What I don't know is if the white is up-regulated or is a new product resulting from mutation, or if it is just background that is always underneath the other colors. I suspect the first theory. It is likely this is a simple recessive mutation, because vast majority of garter morph mutations are.
All this is speculation at this point and will need to be proven out in subsequent years, so relax, be patient and enjoy the hobby.

[guidofatherof5]

So, you still validate the "common sense" comment knowing full well a lot of people, including myself is and was not privy to the facts you just laid out! There are a lot of people who don't even know what a hybrid is and some cant even spell the word. Taking that into consideration I don't know how Eddie and you can generalize and refer to the intelligent question of recognizing hybrids in w/c's as being "common sense". Anyway, we all see things differently and I am done with this thread. Thanks for the explanation, those facts are relatively new to me and I'm sure other members and visitors to the page about how state location plays a role in hybridization? I think the original question can be answered when I "continue my reading" and research. No pun intended. :)


I didn't say State location plays a part in hybridization and it doesn't. Knowing what State the snake in question was from and knowing that States native garter snake species does.

[AntTheDestroyer]

Albert, although Eddie's comment did have a sense of condescension, getting upset is not the best way to get the answers you seek. Thanks Steve and Jeff for the explanation, I think sometimes it is easy to forget that what seems like common knowledge to more experienced members is not so often true for us new folks.

[Jeff B]

It's funny Albert, because years ago I stepped into the same thing when I posted that a wild caught garter that Shannon Hammer had found looked like a cross between a garter and a delays based on how it looked, and boy did that set off fireworks, lol.
So don't feel bad, there are no dumb questions and everything is up for debate/ discussion, that is how we get to the best answers.

[Eddie]

WOW, First debate I ever started and it was by accident! LOL

[Jeff B]

[*=left]My guy, found me a young adult male only a few hundred feet from where the black and white female was found. I thought the black and white might be a male when I first got her due to her size but the tail had me confused. She is now eating two small mice at a time and has grown a lot since I got here and is pretty clearly a female to me. Got the male earlier this week and pretty sure he is male and hopefully might get lucky that he is a carrier for the black and white gene. Either way he will make great new breeding stock.




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[Albert Clark]

Congrats on the acquisition! I can't wait to see the offspring and what they will look like.

[Jeff B]

Thanks Al, I am hoping that the offspring produced would contain half that look just like mom and half that look normal. The other possibility is that all offspring just look normal but carry the gene from mom. Both of those possibilities assume that it is a recessive gene and only difference is weather or not the male is a carrier/het. The third possibility is that they produce "inbetweeners" and the gene behaves similar to the erythristic genes. I guess either way i just hope it is genetic and reproducible, even if it takes me two generations to prove it out.

[BUSHSNAKE]

ive been breeding for about 20 years and Jeff you could easily be breeding garters for the next 10 years. 2 generations aint nothing. that's why morphs have value cuz people put in a lot of time and effort into new projects, just be glad you don't work with galapogas tortoises lol. youll be looking back at it and remember how fun it was to have an opportunity to prove something out

[Eddie]

Joe. Very true
Jeff, I wish you the best of luck!!

[Jeff B]

Very true Joe.

[Jeff B]

Very true Joe, glad i'm not working with any tortoise morph breedings. My diamondback terrapins are going on 6 years and just laid a few eggs in the water this year, typical, maybe next year I will finally get some eggs hatched. Not sure people value time spent on morphs or creating combos, nobody bought any project stuff this year, everyone wants the bright pretty neon blue california red-sided. People only value what they like.
Thanks Ed

[BUSHSNAKE]

Very true Joe, glad i'm not working with any tortoise morph breedings. My diamondback terrapins are going on 6 years and just laid a few eggs in the water this year, typical, maybe next year I will finally get some eggs hatched. Not sure people value time spent on morphs or creating combos, nobody bought any project stuff this year, everyone wants the bright pretty neon blue california red-sided. People only value what they like.
Thanks Ed
you know im finding out its the same with corns, I got some great projects, some creating first time morph combos, and people just want the end product lol

[Jeff B]

Yeah it could have 10 genes but if its ugly you get $10, but if one gene makes pretty you get 10 or more times that. When I was breeding corns I produced a butter stripe, which is actually a 3 recessive gene combo, so in some ways you could say you have to hit 6 copies of genes aka 6 banger. I was breeding triple het to triple het parents, so the odds of producing a butter stripe is 1/64, which is insainely difficult, but thank god corn snakes can lay two clutches of 15+ eggs for a total of 30+ eggs per year. Anyhoo, all that to make one and I think they were only worth $300 back then.

[Jeff B]

I got the male eating now. Hoping to make some black and white babies this spring....or a least a nice litter of hets.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Yeah it could have 10 genes but if its ugly you get $10, but if one gene makes pretty you get 10 or more times that. When I was breeding corns I produced a butter stripe, which is actually a 3 recessive gene combo, so in some ways you could say you have to hit 6 copies of genes aka 6 banger. I was breeding triple het to triple het parents, so the odds of producing a butter stripe is 1/64, which is insainely difficult, but thank god corn snakes can lay two clutches of 15+ eggs for a total of 30+ eggs per year. Anyhoo, all that to make one and I think they were only worth $300 back then.
im working on some 4 morph combos and its a challenge and I love it. corns are bomb proof and they breed easy so if you have patience and stick to your project you will succeed. its a wonderfull thing. I love working with morphs and you cant beat corns when it comes to that. its very different then ball pythons cuz everything is recessive
you have the buyers who just want pretty snakes and then you have breeders who want to explore the possibilities of layering genetic mutations

[Jeff B]

Sadly the black and white eastern female died suddenly and unexpected. She was doing great and eating nightcrawler and fuzzy mice great. I came home from work one day and she was upside down with her mouth open. I cut her open and she wasn't full of babies, nor jellies...nothing. I was pretty shocked and disappointed. No idea why she died. I still have one female and 3 males from the same locale.

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry for your loss.
Unexplained deaths, for being the most studied snake in the world there is still so much we don't know about them.

[indigoman]

Sorry to read of your loss Jeff.

[Eddie]

Sorry Jeff
Maybe you will get lucky with the others from the same local

[Albert Clark]

Wow, what a loss! Sorry about that Jeff. This thread really brought back some memories. Hopefully your other female and trio of males will produce and give you more success.

[Jeff B]

thanks guys it's a long shot with the other from the same local, but at this point I may as well try for a couple more years.