Male keeps harassing and attempting to court other males

[Talon]

I have three all confirmed male garters in one aquarium. They also are small and slender like males tend to be and basically all full grown except a younger male one that only has a little more growing to go. They were confirmed to be male by the people I purchased them from.

I have had this issue on and off with one adult garter. From time to time, he just stops eating, and literally keeps trying to court the smallest male, and other times court the other equally sized male. I was concerned, and thought the smaller male may be a female(I know the other larger male is 100% male, he use to be a breeder before he was given to me). So..I instead placed the smaller male that the larger male keeps trying to court with a female younger than him yet she is still equal size as him. The smaller male then tried to court her! She was very stressed about it, tail wiggling and everything so I removed him from her enclosure.

So pretty much it's obvious that the smaller male HAS to be a male. I put him back in the main aquarium and gave the sex hungry male a time out for a day. He chilled out and was then willing to eat.

Any way, I digress. I know some times males emit pheromones when they emerge. Is this a case of this? He isn't always trying to mate, and the other males, despite his behavior, don't seem to care. They still want to eat, they still bask under the heat lamp, they kind of just lay there while he's going crazy courting them. Again, it's an on and off thing. Sometimes he wants to court them, for a few days, and then for several days to weeks he shows no interest. Should I be concerned? Should I put the sex hungry male in his own aquarium? Is it possible he is picking up from the pheromones from the female in the aquarium next to him?

[Albert Clark]

I have three all confirmed male garters in one aquarium. They also are small and slender like males tend to be and basically all full grown except a younger male one that only has a little more growing to go. They were confirmed to be male by the people I purchased them from.

I have had this issue on and off with one adult garter. From time to time, he just stops eating, and literally keeps trying to court the smallest male, and other times court the other equally sized male. I was concerned, and thought the smaller male may be a female(I know the other larger male is 100% male, he use to be a breeder before he was given to me). So..I instead placed the smaller male that the larger male keeps trying to court with a female younger than him yet she is still equal size as him. The smaller male then tried to court her! She was very stressed about it, tail wiggling and everything so I removed him from her enclosure.

So pretty much it's obvious that the smaller male HAS to be a male. I put him back in the main aquarium and gave the sex hungry male a time out for a day. He chilled out and was then willing to eat.

Any way, I digress. I know some times males emit pheromones when they emerge. Is this a case of this? He isn't always trying to mate, and the other males, despite his behavior, don't seem to care. They still want to eat, they still bask under the heat lamp, they kind of just lay there while he's going crazy courting them. Again, it's an on and off thing. Sometimes he wants to court them, for a few days, and then for several days to weeks he shows no interest. Should I be concerned? Should I put the sex hungry male in his own aquarium? Is it possible he is picking up from the pheromones from the female in the aquarium next to him?
Welcome to the club Talon its nice to have you here. What you are experiencing is the pheromonal signature being given off by your smaller male. It's a common occurrence when males and females emerge from hibernation and the frantic search of males to find females. There are some males who give off female pheromones to throw off rival males. So, this is all normal behavior and not a lot to worry about unless you want to give the courter a "time out". Also , if you think the smaller male may be getting overly stressed from it. I think its normal behavior and the smaller guy can handle it. It's known as the "she male " garter snake fakery. Haha. :)

[Rushthezeppelin]

Welcome to the club Talon its nice to have you here. What you are experiencing is the pheromonal signature being given off by your smaller male. It's a common occurrence when males and females emerge from hibernation and the frantic search of males to find females. There are some males who give off female pheromones to throw off rival males. So, this is all normal behavior and not a lot to worry about unless you want to give the courter a "time out". Also , if you think the smaller male may be getting overly stressed from it. I think its normal behavior and the smaller guy can handle it. It's known as the "she male " garter snake fakery. Haha. :)

Lol my answer was he needs to go to Big Gay Al's Big Gay Animal Sanctuary (for any of yall that are South Park fans). Your's is much better though

[Albert Clark]

Lol my answer was he needs to go to Big Gay Al's Big Gay Animal Sanctuary (for any of yall that are South Park fans). Your's is much better though

Listen Rushthezeppelin, your comment about my sexual orientation is way off base and offensive! I SHOULD REPORT YOUR POST AND COMMENT BC IT'S VERY INAPPROPRIATE! You don't know me, and you should really have more respect for yourself and for others. What you said here about me is a criminal complaint. Please refrain from attacking personal genders that you are ignorant about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: IF YOU WERE TRYING TO BE CUTE , YOUR NOT. If you were trying trying to insult me , you did!

[Rushthezeppelin]

I was talking about his snake and it was only in jest. Just a reference to a cartoon character, my apologies. If you would like I would be more than happy to delete the post, I understand this is supposed to be family friendly and perhaps my comment could be construed as borderline offensive to someone who doesn't know the reference. The comment was not meant to be snide or demeaning in anyway.

[Albert Clark]

Lol my answer was he needs to go to Big Gay Al's Big Gay Animal Sanctuary (for any of yall that are South Park fans). Your's is much better though

And furthermore, I am not a South Park fan...! I don't know what you were trying to infer by the comment but you are way out in left field!! I have reported this to the Moderators. We will see where this has to go.

[Albert Clark]

You certainly weren't referring to the snake bc the snakes' name is not ALBERT! You really need to check yourself and have respect for other people period.

[Albert Clark]

What do you mean someone who doesn't know the difference!!!!!!! You used my name in a sexually explicit description. Who do you think you are Rushthezeppelin???????????

[liveunderoath]

You certainly weren't referring to the snake bc the snakes' name is not ALBERT! You really need to check yourself and have respect for other people period.
I'm not going to take sides or anything if this becomes an argument, but he was referring to an old episode of Southpark that just so happened to have the name "Big Gay Al's Animal Sanctuary" in it. I'm sure he didn't intend it to be offensive towards you. he most likely wasn't even thinking of your name at the time.

[Rushthezeppelin]

The Al reference wasn't to anyone in here, not you or the snake. Big Gay Al the character in the show takes care of gay animals with intolerant owners, he is portrayed in a positive light. I should have realized someone who didn't get the reference would be totally confused and not posted that. Like I said I didn't even realize I was replying to you. For the record your response was great and mine was just some half immature joke that certainly did not help the thread at all.

[Albert Clark]

The Al reference wasn't to anyone in here, not you or the snake. Big Gay Al the character in the show takes care of gay animals with intolerant owners, he is portrayed in a positive light. I should have realized someone who didn't get the reference would be totally confused and not posted that. Like I said I didn't even realize I was replying to you. For the record your response was great and mine was just some half immature joke that certainly did not help the thread at all.
I really had to take a triple take of the post bc I was so taken aback by the comment. Ok. Actually it's not ok to laugh about homophobic comments or insinuations especially in these days and times. I just have a peeve about that. THANKS .

[Rushthezeppelin]

I agree, I wasn't really trying to be disparaging to anyone including the she male acting snake.

[d_virginiana]

For what it's worth the reference wasn't homophobic... The whole purpose of that episode was to show how silly one of the characters was being for getting upset that his male dog was trying to mate with another male dog and pointing out that homosexual behavior has been documented in a lot of species.

To add to the actual question, if you have a female in the room, the male snakes can probably tell that as well, especially if you use any of the same equipment, or do tank maintenance without scrubbing down between snakes. It's only a problem if one of the snakes seems to be getting so stressed out that they aren't eating and acting normally.

[Zdravko092368]

It's the internet, bring your thick skin please we don't need useless dramahttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/#90919766), thanks in advance.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Still regardless I probably should have refrained from posting that comment. It wasn't helpful to the OP and ended up jacking his whole thread >< That and it's probably best to keep this site G rated (well excluding the R rated snake stuff of course lol) as there are potential youngsters visiting here.

[Zdravko092368]

Seriously you don't need to apologize to anyone(even though it's nice that you are), you didn't mean anything and you didn't hijack the thread, Albert went off on you for literally nothing, if anyone should apologize it's Albert. People are oversensitive these days and get offended by everything for some reason and it's actually pretty annoying.

[Stefan-A]

It was apparently a misunderstanding, no harm or offense was intended, homophobia or any other sort of bigotry will not be tolerated, what's "oversensitive" is completely subjective (I could for example say something that a lot of you would find extremely offensive and then just shrug off any criticism by calling you oversensitive), and yes I'm still alive.

The matter is closed. Get back to the topic.

[Albert Clark]

It's the internet, bring your thick skin please we don't need useless dramahttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/#90919766), thanks in advance.

People should think b4 they speak to avoid offending others. YW.

[Albert Clark]

It was apparently a misunderstanding, no harm or offense was intended, homophobia or any other sort of bigotry will not be tolerated, what's "oversensitive" is completely subjective (I could for example say something that a lot of you would find extremely offensive and then just shrug off any criticism by calling you oversensitive), and yes I'm still alive.

The matter is closed. Get back to the topic.
TY for the thoughts and intervention.

[Albert Clark]

Seriously you don't need to apologize to anyone(even though it's nice that you are), you didn't mean anything and you didn't hijack the thread, Albert went off on you for literally nothing, if anyone should apologize it's Albert. People are oversensitive these days and get offended by everything for some reason and it's actually pretty annoying.
Please, you cant be serious.

[Albert Clark]

It's the internet, bring your thick skin please we don't need useless dramahttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/#90919766), thanks in advance.

Please Zdravko092368, do not private message me about anything else. Anything you have to type to me put it on the forum otherwise do not harass me. Thank you and your welcome!

[Albert Clark]

Welcome to the club Talon its nice to have you here. What you are experiencing is the pheromonal signature being given off by your smaller male. It's a common occurrence when males and females emerge from hibernation and the frantic search of males to find females. There are some males who give off female pheromones to throw off rival males. So, this is all normal behavior and not a lot to worry about unless you want to give the courter a "time out". Also , if you think the smaller male may be getting overly stressed from it. I think its normal behavior and the smaller guy can handle it. It's known as the "she male " garter snake fakery. Haha. :)

Pardon the interruption Talon, getting back to the topic. In addition to the phenomena with pheromones, male garters can also mistakenly see other males (visually) as female during these high energy , frantic times. So, once again if you feel its problematic then separate them but it truly is normal garter behavior. Good luck with them.:)

[Tommytradix]

well....that escalated quickly lol

[Albert Clark]

Seriously you don't need to apologize to anyone(even though it's nice that you are), you didn't mean anything and you didn't hijack the thread, Albert went off on you for literally nothing, if anyone should apologize it's Albert. People are oversensitive these days and get offended by everything for some reason and it's actually pretty annoying.
Sir , I asked you to please DO NOT PRIVATE MESSAGE ME! ARE YOU MENTALLY CHALLENGED??????

[d_virginiana]

Sir , I asked you to please DO NOT PRIVATE MESSAGE ME! ARE YOU MENTALLY CHALLENGED??????

If the content of the PMs is inappropriate, you should contact a mod about it, but considering that a mod has already commented on this thread to try and get it back on track, PMs are where any subsequent discussion about that disagreement should take place... Calling someone out for PMing you on a public thread doesn't really solve anything, since the overwhelming majority of us can't do anything about it either way, and it would be a shame if the OP (who hasn't been involved in the argument portion of the conversation in any way) had their thread locked because of it... And that is where this looks like it's headed.

[Tommytradix]

Sir , I asked you to please DO NOT PRIVATE MESSAGE ME! ARE YOU MENTALLY CHALLENGED??????

I seen the pms albert and there is no reason for name calling

[guidofatherof5]

At this point the thread should be locked in my opinion. The reason for the possible confusion by the male garter has been explained and explained very well. The rest is getting and going nowhere.

[guidofatherof5]

I received a call this evening from Steve Schmidt who provided the following link to a lot of great studies but 2 in particular that relate to the original posters question.
Item #43 and #44 are the two. Thank you Steve.
I did download both PDF files and can email them to anyone wanting them. Just PM me your email and I'll send them right out.
CURRICULUM VITAE (http://people.oregonstate.edu/~masonr/pages/curriculum_vitae.html#Publications)

[guidofatherof5]

Please look through the above list as there are some older studies done on the subject. Item #4, #6, #17.

[Tommytradix]

best link ever

[d_virginiana]

I don't THINK they've ended my access to my university's library database yet. I need to go read those before they do! They look like they're going to be really interesting.

[Talon]

Thank you for the answers...I saw them earlier but the random argument kinda scared me not to immediately reply.

I noticed when the smaller male is cold and I'm just turning the heat lamp on the other male starts to try and court him. Very interesting stuff. But as long as he's not stressed I will leave them be. I was just concerned if this was normal behavior. Thank you all again!

[Rushthezeppelin]

Once again sorry about the derailment, but I'm glad people were able to let you know what you needed to know.

[guidofatherof5]

I don't THINK they've ended my access to my university's library database yet. I need to go read those before they do! They look like they're going to be really interesting.

No need to hurry Virginia these are open to read on the link in PDF form. No need for a University database.

[d_virginiana]

No need to hurry Virginia these are open to read on the link in PDF form. No need for a University database.

Ah, that's good to know. So much scientific lit is blocked behind a paywall it's crazy. I think after it's been published, all peer-reviewed scientific papers should be made available to the public without cost. The whole purpose of science is to inform people, and that can't happen when no one can access the work.

[guidofatherof5]

Ah, that's good to know. So much scientific lit is blocked behind a paywall it's crazy. I think after it's been published, all peer-reviewed scientific papers should be made available to the public without cost. The whole purpose of science is to inform people, and that can't happen when no one can access the work.

I hear you and agree completely.

[Albert Clark]

Thanks Steve and I appreciate all your help.