Without further ado... Achromatic!

[Dan72]

Litter #1 from 2014:
12469124701247112472

The attached thumbnail does not go with this litter, it won't let me delete it. :(

[Dan72]

Litter #2 from 2014:
124741247512476

Normal sibling 100% het for achromatic. These come from the original wild caught het female which Mark still has and breeds to this day.

[Dan72]

This is a female from 2013, possibly gravid. Mark has 2 more females, one of which is the original WC het female that we may get litters from also.

1247712478124791248012481

[Dan72]

More of the female from 2013:

1248212483124841248512486

[Dan72]

And one last post of the female from 2013:

124871248812489

The one and only litter so far from this year, 14 scrubs, so far eating well, expecting sheds any time! Maybe after their first shed I'll get some pics up of them as well.

[BUSHSNAKE]

pictured next to the normal plains its clearly a plains garter with no yellow. That's called axanthic right??

[Rushthezeppelin]

Omg they are literally like a regular radix filmed with a b/w cam. That's awesome. I'm tempted to get a female possibly from that line, they looks great and would probably make a great tankmate for Delilah. Just sucks I live in TX and it will still be hella hot by the time you have these available.

[Dan72]

Joe, axanthic is a label you could use and it would be just as correct. Mark liked achromatic which means the lacking of color, guess he feels it's more appropriate. In reality he can call them anything he wants, his line, my vote was for "blow your mind super amazing zebra radix", Mark thought it was too much. ;)

[Zdravko092368]

pictured next to the normal plains its clearly a plains garter with no yellow. That's called axanthic right??

Don't most normal Axanthic have blue? At least i've never seen an Axanthic without blue... Tommys even has red in it. These seem completely colourless, I guess they would just be a different type of Axanthic... so they get a new name? Lol, regardless of what they are called, I like them.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Zebra Radix....lol I like it. If I get one of these I'm totally going to name her after some bombshell actress for the B/W days of film. So any idea of price tag?

[AntTheDestroyer]

Wow those are incredible. Most likely out of my budget.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Very nice axanthics!

[BUSHSNAKE]

Don't most normal Axanthic have blue? At least i've never seen an Axanthic without blue... Tommys even has red in it. These seem completely colourless, I guess they would just be a different type of Axanthic... so they get a new name? Lol, regardless of what they are called, I like them.

ever see an axanthic ball python or brooks king snake? those aren't blue. Axanthics are only blue when the normal coloration of the snake is green...like a green mamba or green tree python. The current "axanthic" radix that's blue isn't anything other then a blue color morph.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Joe, axanthic is a label you could use and it would be just as correct. Mark liked achromatic which means the lacking of color, guess he feels it's more appropriate. In reality he can call them anything he wants, his line, my vote was for "blow your mind super amazing zebra radix", Mark thought it was too much. ;)
this whole idea of calling it whatever he wants doesn't fly. Why should it? Theres names for these morphs for a reason. Just like everything else in life that's how you know what your getting. And that "achromatic" has color. Black is a color...so its a little confusing and in the garter hobby people seem to be confused as hell cuz if its blue it must be axanthic and if its black and grey then it must be anery. That's not reality

[Zdravko092368]

this whole idea of calling it whatever he wants doesn't fly. Why should it? Theres names for these morphs for a reason. Just like everything else in life that's how you know what your getting. And that "achromatic" has color. Black is a color...so its a little confusing and in the garter hobby people seem to be confused as hell cuz if its blue it must be axanthic and if its black and grey then it must be anery. That's not reality

We aren't confused, look at our beautiful snow easterns... which are brown and not made from an anery lol.

[BUSHSNAKE]

We aren't confused, look at our beautiful snow easterns... which are brown and not made from an anery lol.

none of them are made from anerys, all the garter snows are albino melanistics

[AntTheDestroyer]

this whole idea of calling it whatever he wants doesn't fly. Why should it? Theres names for these morphs for a reason. Just like everything else in life that's how you know what your getting. And that "achromatic" has color. Black is a color...so its a little confusing and in the garter hobby people seem to be confused as hell cuz if its blue it must be axanthic and if its black and grey then it must be anery. That's not reality

B.S. there are tons of morphs with non sense nomenclature like soul sucker ball pythons. At least Achromatic gives one a good sense of what the animal looks like. Achromatic is often used to describe black, whites, and greys. Terms like anerytheristic and anxanthic only describe what pigment the snake is missing. Really you could call any green snake anerytheristic but what good does that do? Calm down, I think it is a great name.

[Zdravko092368]

none of them are made from anerys, all the garter snows are albino melanistics

I'm aware...

[BUSHSNAKE]

B.S. there are tons of morphs with non sense nomenclature like soul sucker ball pythons. At least Achromatic gives one a good sense of what the animal looks like. Achromatic is often used to describe black, whites, and greys. Terms like anerytheristic and anxanthic only describe what pigment the snake is missing. Really you could call any green snake anerytheristic but what good does that do? Calm down, I think it is a great name.
Calm down? Im calm and im aware of all the names people come up with but that's not what im talking about. The black and white looks to be axanthic and that's what it should be called. It looks like the name achromatic is gonna stick, another garter morph wrongly labeled, good job guys. Keep up the good work

[AntTheDestroyer]

Calm down? Im calm and im aware of all the names people come up with but that's not what im talking about. The black and white looks to be axanthic and that's what it should be called. It looks like the name achromatic is gonna stick, another garter morph wrongly labeled, good job guys. Keep up the good work

The snake seems to be missing both blue and yellow pigment so axanthic would not entirely descriptive. Pretending to use science to lecture us on pseudo science, good job.

[Tommytradix]

Calm down? Im calm and im aware of all the names people come up with but that's not what im talking about. The black and white looks to be axanthic and that's what it should be called. It looks like the name achromatic is gonna stick, another garter morph wrongly labeled, good job guys. Keep up the good work

im calling it axanthic cause every axanthic ive seen besides the 'blue axanthic radix' has been b&w which is what I know axanthics to be and seeing as ill be selling a lot in spring that's what im labeling them as and mine didn't originate from mark. steve had them and sold one to rickymar81 and ive been sending him females and his females have been producing and ive been buying every litter since last year. my high red female is het and I have hets that are also het for albino so I may produce a new designer morph which would need a name based on its appearance. im thinking a new form of blizzard but you never know.....

[Eddie]

I have a green garter and my kids call her Olive Oyl. Well, blow me down! Aghaghagha

[Dan72]

You didn't purchase them from Mark, true. But they did originate from Mark.;)
Someone had made a comment on the Facebook group that these had/have popped up in litters before and to their best recollection been found in the wild before. All of that could/is true, but until now they have not been made available to the hobby as they will be soon and that too will originate back to Mark. Just giving credit where it's due. IMO, which I don't really see any argument around.

[Zdravko092368]

I have a green garter and my kids call her Olive Oyl. Well, blow me down! Aghaghagha

We need photos of those babies from the green pairing, I hope they colour up green.

[Albert Clark]

The b/w axanthics /achromatics are a beautiful phenotype. Whatever is decided on the appropriate classification the snake is a nice addition to any collection.

[Tommytradix]

You didn't purchase them from Mark, true. But they did originate from Mark.;)
Someone had made a comment on the Facebook group that these had/have popped up in litters before and to their best recollection been found in the wild before. All of that could/is true, but until now they have not been made available to the hobby as they will be soon and that too will originate back to Mark. Just giving credit where it's due. IMO, which I don't really see any argument around.
I want to hear steves thoughts on this. he at one point had them in his care. its hard for me to believe that his b&w axanthics are not the same as the ones mark produced

[guidofatherof5]

Mark found this morph in Nebr.
My female(normal) that produced my B/W was from Council Bluffs Iowa and the albino male that bred her was from Riverton Iowa. Mark found a completely different strain.

[Jeff B]

On the one hand I agree with Joe in the technical sense that this is actually a true axanthic by purist definition, clearly has the yellow pigments removed. As Joe pointed out is very clearly demonstrated in the photo with normal siblings. This is the first garter with a recessive gene that has been demonstrated to only remove yellow, without altering the melanins or other pigments and is truly deserving of the definition/name axanthic.
On the other hand if Mark wants to call it achromatic that is his choice I guess.
Personally, for radix I would rather see this gene called axanthic and what we now call axanthics called blue axanthic (though I have been calling them that for years anyway) and what we call anery be called black axanthic (sorry Joe not ready to call them melanistic because they aren't solid patternless black).
The ball pythons have a black axanthic and is similar.
Just my two cents but to each there own.
BTW- awesome snakes Mark and Dan, congratulations on proving them out. They may be found from different location than Steves, but they look pretty much the same to me. I would guess they would be compatible too. Great work. Personally I would be interested in crossing with the blue axanthic and the black axanthic, especially the black axanthic to see if compatible which I doubt they would be but the combo might be neat anyway. Best of luck with them.

[Tommytradix]

On the one hand I agree with Joe in the technical sense that this is actually a true axanthic by purist definition, clearly has the yellow pigments removed. As Joe pointed out is very clearly demonstrated in the photo with normal siblings. This is the first garter with a recessive gene that has been demonstrated to only remove yellow, without altering the melanins or other pigments and is truly deserving of the definition/name axanthic.
On the other hand if Mark wants to call it achromatic that is his choice I guess.
Personally, for radix I would rather see this gene called axanthic and what we now call axanthics called blue axanthic (though I have been calling them that for years anyway) and what we call anery be called black axanthic (sorry Joe not ready to call them melanistic because they aren't solid patternless black).
The ball pythons have a black axanthic and is similar.
Just my two cents but to each there own.
BTW- awesome snakes Mark and Dan, congratulations on proving them out. They may be found from different location than Steves, but they look pretty much the same to me. I would guess they would be compatible too. Great work. Personally I would be interested in crossing with the blue axanthic and the black axanthic, especially the black axanthic to see if compatible which I doubt they would be but the combo might be neat anyway. Best of luck with them.

I agree and it was already crossed with an albino I should produce a litter from them next summer.

[Dan72]

Jeff crossing them into things and hopefully getting something new to show up is something I'm very interested in. Tommy should beat everyone to that with his hets, which is cool, because I'm all for new discovery. I was thinking the other day after a conversation Tommy and I had, we were discussing maybe blizzards or/and snows coming out of these. My thought was this, in BP's it USED to be there was but one way to create a blue eyed leucy. But then there was another, then another, and another. If we, and by we I mean whoever gets there, if we discover another way to get to snow then on to blizzard. If you took the old snow and paired it with the new snows, if the litter are snows then the two ways are compatible if no snows then they would be dbl hets? And in regards to pairing with the blue axanthic if you get a litter of normals then dbl het and not compatible. But if they are you would get a litter with both types present? And what if one were to over ride the other, or would that not be possible?

[Dan72]

Jeff, also I know that figuring out more of how the axanthic gene works was something you were into, you produced what you thought were two types in a litter a few seasons ago. Are you over it? It seems you really cleaned house today listing stuff, are you going all in, doubling down on Golden easterns? I know that either because of time or space, or in most cases both, it's hard to work with EVERYTHING. But between Scott being done it seems, and you listing most everything I've known you to work with since being on the forum, I feel like my garter world has been turned on its head. By the way you listing your poster girl at 600, I might have to check what you get for giving plasma these days and how many centers for plasma donation are within driving distance, because that is one snake I'd give blood for ;)

[Jeff B]

Jeff, also I know that figuring out more of how the axanthic gene works was something you were into, you produced what you thought were two types in a litter a few seasons ago. Are you over it? It seems you really cleaned house today listing stuff, are you going all in, doubling down on Golden easterns? I know that either because of time or space, or in most cases both, it's hard to work with EVERYTHING. But between Scott being done it seems, and you listing most everything I've known you to work with since being on the forum, I feel like my garter world has been turned on its head. By the way you listing your poster girl at 600, I might have to check what you get for giving plasma these days and how many centers for plasma donation are within driving distance, because that is one snake I'd give blood for ;)

Dan, first of all I am not getting out of garters just because I put a few of my adults up for sale. Realize what I put up for sale yesterday is a tiny fraction of my collection and all those awesome looking snakes I have been breeding for a couple years and have been growing up their offspring, some of which are even better and you have yet to even see pictures of them. I have to do this every year and thin out a bit otherwise I would have 1000 snakes in my house and no where to walk , lol. I still have a blizzard radix and what i believe is the homozygous for blue axanthic female and a snow(black axanthic and iowa albino combo). Yes I plan to continue work with the blue axanthic and the black axanthic.
Relax I am not going anywhere, but yes you should give plasma LOL.

[Dan72]

Ssshhwoooooo...... good to hear Jeff, I can only take so much shock to my garter system at one time. So now my head will just spin with all the thoughts of the beautiful snakes your sitting on and what they may breed in the future. I am checking out plasma centers in my area. ;)

[Albert Clark]

I just want to add a big "thank you" to you Jeff for all you have done for this hobby and the industry as a whole. You are a co-pioneer beside Scott, natiowide and world renowned who together have brought the garter snake to the fore front. Thank you again. :)

[Zdravko092368]

Realize what I put up for sale yesterday is a tiny fraction of my collection and all those awesome looking snakes I have been breeding for a couple years and have been growing up their offspring, some of which are even better and you have yet to even see pictures of them.

I would love to see photos of some of that huge collection of yours... so would everyone else i'm sure. :rolleyes:

[Jeff B]

I would love to see photos of some of that huge collection of yours... so would everyone else i'm sure. :rolleyes:
It's not that huge, though my wife would beg to differ, lol. I do have some yearlings and erythristic het golden that are looking pretty good that I need to take some pics and post up.

[Dan72]

Mark's original het female dropped 12 today. The odds were not with us as they were last year. 9 hets and 3 achromatic. So as it stands there are 17 total this year w/ possibly one girl to go. After holdbacks and any failure to thrive issues, there will be a limited amount of these to go around this year. I will give forum members first crack at these guys, then I will be posting to the Facebook groups.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Hope last one drops plenty of girls.....really wanting one of those.

[Dan72]

Spoke with Mark tonight at length. Long story short he said he has no problem with referring to these as B/W axanthic. The reason he went with something different is because he didn't want there to be any confusion when talking the two types because axanthic was already being used to describe the blue axanthic (if that's what we are calling them). So as long as we all know what we are talking about from here forward these will be referenced as B/W axanthic. He did want to point out that achromatic does however work as well;)
His concern is not in a name as much as getting these out to those who want them.

[Tommytradix]

Spoke with Mark tonight at length. Long story short he said he has no problem with referring to these as B/W axanthic. The reason he went with something different is because he didn't want there to be any confusion when talking the two types because axanthic was already being used to describe the blue axanthic (if that's what we are calling them). So as long as we all know what we are talking about from here forward these will be referenced as B/W axanthic. He did want to point out that achromatic does however work as well;)
His concern is not in a name as much as getting these out to those who want them.
now what do we call steves?... ahahaha type 2? im not actually sure his will be proved out anytime soon. ive spoken to him plenty of times trying to get one and offered everything but my soul lol (my soul is still available btw) unless steve is planning a breeding but if he is he hasn't told me. I really want to see these 2 types side by side in person but looks as though that's some time away for now :(

[BUSHSNAKE]

On the one hand I agree with Joe in the technical sense that this is actually a true axanthic by purist definition, clearly has the yellow pigments removed. As Joe pointed out is very clearly demonstrated in the photo with normal siblings. This is the first garter with a recessive gene that has been demonstrated to only remove yellow, without altering the melanins or other pigments and is truly deserving of the definition/name axanthic.
On the other hand if Mark wants to call it achromatic that is his choice I guess.
Personally, for radix I would rather see this gene called axanthic and what we now call axanthics called blue axanthic (though I have been calling them that for years anyway) and what we call anery be called black axanthic (sorry Joe not ready to call them melanistic because they aren't solid patternless black).
The ball pythons have a black axanthic and is similar.
Just my two cents but to each there own.
BTW- awesome snakes Mark and Dan, congratulations on proving them out. They may be found from different location than Steves, but they look pretty much the same to me. I would guess they would be compatible too. Great work. Personally I would be interested in crossing with the blue axanthic and the black axanthic, especially the black axanthic to see if compatible which I doubt they would be but the combo might be neat anyway. Best of luck with them.
your almost there Jeff lol one day youll realize that a melanistic doesn't have to be patternless black, don't you remember the melanistic eastern that i had that had a pattern that looked just like the "anerys",it was from the ohio population I might add...I posted a picture of it on here so everyone can see melanistics can have pattern.

[Tommytradix]

your almost there Jeff lol one day youll realize that a melanistic doesn't have to be patternless black, don't you remember the melanistic eastern that i had that had a pattern that looked just like the "anerys",it was from the ohio population I might add...I posted a picture of it on here so everyone can see melanistics can have pattern.
my melanistic easterns show a pattern when they are in shed

[Jeff B]

none of them are made from anerys, all the garter snows are albino melanistics

I'm aware...
Not true the iowa snow has the yellow from the iowa albino completely removed and there is not melanin present on that animal like the brownish eastern albino melanistic, demonstrating that the black axanthic does in fact have yellow removing effect, which by definition is axanthic.
I have always said that the black axanthic radix genes phenotype displays both axanthic and melanistic qualities. It is not simply one or the other.

[Tommytradix]

why do some snows express a yellow tint?

[BUSHSNAKE]

Not true the iowa snow has the yellow from the iowa albino completely removed and there is not melanin present on that animal like the brownish eastern albino melanistic, demonstrating that the black axanthic does in fact have yellow removing effect, which by definition is axanthic.
I have always said that the black axanthic radix genes phenotype displays both axanthic and melanistic qualities. It is not simply one or the other.

now the anery is a black axanthic? is the anery red sided a black axanthic too? You can call them what ever you want but the "black axanthic" plains, the anery red sided and the melanistic eastern are all the same morph. They are all black, they are all axanthic and since the red sided has red ill say they are all anery as well. They all have pure black eyes and a white chin and all have created some type of snow. Your saying that axanthics can look different...well so can melanistics, they don't even have to be black. the difference is a axanthic can remove yellow from an albino but the albino removes the black from the melanistic and that's the kind of snows we have today.

[BUSHSNAKE]

my melanistic easterns show a pattern when they are in shed

mine had a pattern all the time, I posted a picture of it, im sure you can find it if you go thru my threads

[BUSHSNAKE]

Not true the iowa snow has the yellow from the iowa albino completely removed and there is not melanin present on that animal like the brownish eastern albino melanistic, demonstrating that the black axanthic does in fact have yellow removing effect, which by definition is axanthic.
I have always said that the black axanthic radix genes phenotype displays both axanthic and melanistic qualities. It is not simply one or the other.

if you wanna compare snows you don't compare a t+ to a t-. compare the Nebraska snow to the schuett snow, they look almost exactly the same